Cryto! 8 May 2013
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00:27:58 <twitchyliquid64> 18:13 < lady-3jane> latest blackhole distribution mechanism pops apache, nginx, and lighttpd
00:28:02 <twitchyliquid64> waht? link?
00:28:17 <twitchyliquid64> does that mean my server which runs lighttpd is vuln?
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01:59:17 <lady-3jane> twitchyliquid64:) it's on fuckin arstechnica man
01:59:27 <lady-3jane> twitchyliquid64:) I don't want to open a browser right now
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02:19:14 <ShadowDemonX> Dudes
02:19:39 <ShadowDemonX> I switched from Debian to Ubuntu because a friend of mine kept raving about it
02:20:20 <ShadowDemonX> Turns out it's full of glitches and my internet keeps cutting out intermittently. Anyone else have issue with Ubuntu's crappy code?
02:20:52 <ShadowDemonX> joepie91: bro how's life?
02:21:27 <joepie91> life is pretty okay
02:21:30 <joepie91> ubuntu is terrible
02:21:30 <lady-3jane> lol
02:21:34 <joepie91> just go back to debian
02:21:37 <lady-3jane> ^
02:21:46 <joepie91> that, or use opensuse if you need newer software
02:21:50 <lady-3jane> I've been using ubuntu since the week 12.10 came out, it's gotten slightly faster
02:21:56 <lady-3jane> that's about it
02:22:33 <lady-3jane> 13.04's unity and associated services use even more ram
02:23:06 <lady-3jane> my happy medium was to use i3wm and run the gnome services I needed
02:23:07 <lady-3jane> :)
02:47:14 <ShadowDemonX> o
02:47:19 <ShadowDemonX> Lol
02:47:42 <ShadowDemonX> I realize this scenario as well. Ubuntu makes me quite sad inside.
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03:00:25 <lady-3jane> doesn't bother me, I'm just not their target market
03:01:01 <lady-3jane> For me it *just works*, and that's the idea. But this is linux and I'm not an idiot, so I want to dick with stuff.
03:07:20 <lady-3jane> holy fuck man
03:07:28 <lady-3jane> this HN thread about nginx's vuln is nuts
03:07:53 <lady-3jane> their http parsing library is a finite state machine in C
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03:37:13 *** SpaghettiCode changed the topic to: "Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICLY LOGGED CHANNEL. http://wire.cryto.net/logs | http://cryto.net/, http://forums.cryto.net/ | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Online Flash IDE: http://wonderfl.net/about/ | Cryto Research: http://research.cryto.net/ | RIP Aaron Swartz"
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05:27:08 <ilikeapricot> lol smithsonian
05:27:11 <ilikeapricot> lol SpaghettiCode
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06:19:56 <anonO_o> smith
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13:01:32 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
13:01:32 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-05-08#T13-01-32
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13:37:10 <twitchyliquid64> thanks lady-3jane
13:38:43 <lady-3jane> twitchyliquid64:) http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/attack-hitting-apache-sites-goes-mainstream-hacks-nginx-lighttpd-too/
13:38:49 <lady-3jane> has browser now :)
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16:55:42 <MK_FG> H4xX0r all the httpds!
17:06:29 <zxcvbnm> yo
17:06:30 <zxcvbnm> lady jane
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17:09:49 <zxcvbnm> must paatch
17:09:58 <zxcvbnm> the evildoers are attacking
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19:50:05 <DrWhat> this just in
19:50:07 <DrWhat> http://labs.umbrella.com/2013/05/07/breaking-news-traffic-from-syria-disappears-from-internet/
19:55:29 <mama> hi DrWhat :)
19:55:53 <DrWhat> Hi mama mia
19:56:21 <mama> I have read your remarks and those of joe
19:56:43 <mama> you are right but only because there were few tech explanations
19:56:59 <mama> i asked the team to add more tech details
19:57:24 <mama> if you are interested i can pm you the pad they are working on
20:00:39 <mama> DrWhat: ??
20:01:56 <DrWhat> ive slept since then
20:02:00 <DrWhat> you will ned to remind me
20:02:29 <DrWhat> Whats this about?
20:03:36 <zxcvbnm> DrWhat: That is sooo not just in
20:03:52 <DrWhat> zxcvbnm ... Shut up :(
20:04:02 <DrWhat> where telecomunix
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20:06:22 <mama> DrWhat: http://www.freeanons.info/wiki/index.php?title=New_Chat_System_Project
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20:06:44 <mama> we added some more tech info on the wiki
20:06:47 <DrWhat> OHHHH
20:06:51 <DrWhat> that utter disater
20:06:56 <mama> but the new adds will be on the pad
20:06:59 <DrWhat> DOCUMENT INCOMPLETE
20:06:59 <DrWhat> AS OF 5-7-13
20:06:59 <DrWhat> <UNDER CONSTRUCTION>
20:07:01 <DrWhat> i noticed
20:07:38 <mama> but it is more clear now what the system will use
20:29:30 <DrWhat> Alright lets see what will fail now
20:30:52 <zxcvbnm> :D
20:30:53 <DrWhat> can i point out
20:31:08 <DrWhat> Hardened against:
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Site Defacement
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Web Application Vulnerabilities
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Rootkits
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Malware Uploads
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Denial of Service Attacks
20:31:09 <DrWhat> SQL injection and Cross Site Scripting attacks
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Data Theft
20:31:09 <DrWhat> Advanced Persistent Threats
20:31:20 <DrWhat> SINCE WHEN HAS A CHAT SYSTEM BE VULNRABLE TO THAT
20:31:49 <DrWhat> 0 Advanced Persistent Threats
20:31:55 <DrWhat> that is just soe words put to gather
20:33:21 <DrWhat> Oh wait
20:33:26 <DrWhat> you are evaluation distros
20:33:27 <DrWhat> ...
20:33:32 <DrWhat> Why distros
20:34:04 <DrWhat> Whats does distros have to do with it
20:34:27 <DrWhat> AND ON THAT NOTE
20:34:35 <DrWhat> WHAT DOES Web Application Vulnerabilities HAVE TO DO WIT HTHE DISTRO
20:49:22 <IR601> lol
20:50:24 <IR601> he has a point
20:50:45 <IR601> what ur testing is not distro based
20:50:48 <IR601> lol
20:51:17 <DrWhat> Pro tip mama
20:51:19 <DrWhat> Give up
20:51:26 <IR601> harsh
20:51:35 <DrWhat> Who ever is behind that has no idea about anything
20:52:06 <DrWhat> They are are trying to look smart, but they really are not.
20:52:27 <DrWhat> And i going back to my prvious comment
20:52:42 <DrWhat> Wait
20:52:43 <DrWhat> i cant
20:52:49 <DrWhat> i cant remeber what i said
20:52:52 <DrWhat> it was 3 days afo
20:52:54 <DrWhat> ago*
20:53:13 <DrWhat> i said something about there is nothing about technoalgy
20:53:55 <DrWhat> Ok ok ok
20:54:02 <DrWhat> Im going back to the start
20:54:05 <DrWhat> mama
20:54:22 <DrWhat> Why does anon need such a "uncontrolled system"
20:54:58 <DrWhat> also
20:54:58 <DrWhat> This is unacceptable and truly goes against the original ideas of Anonymous, therefore we must make a change in the way we EQUALLY communicate to disallow these power centers.
20:55:33 <DrWhat> Anonymous adopted IRC as the prefered choice of communication
20:55:50 <DrWhat> I see no one that is against it apart from the ones who dont know who to use it
20:59:05 <DrWhat> I also read the paragrath about irc attacks nad stuff
20:59:17 <DrWhat> There will always be an attack method on all protacals
20:59:57 <DrWhat> tell you hat
21:00:10 <DrWhat> if you "succesfuly" build the system
21:00:28 <DrWhat> I promise i will spam the fuck out of it will millions of bots
21:00:46 <DrWhat> if it is or wasnt clear
21:00:48 <DrWhat> i hate it.
21:01:52 <DrWhat> joepie91 do you have anything to add?
21:02:25 <DrWhat> Argh im so angry right now
21:02:31 <DrWhat> Fag time
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21:08:44 <mama> LOL DrWhat
21:09:21 <mama> i will put your comments on the pad for memory ;)
21:09:35 <DrWhat> you better.
21:09:51 <DrWhat> you better hope i dont coe on cybergriller
21:10:00 <DrWhat> Oh god i want to
21:13:46 <mama> LOL?
21:15:39 <mama> DrWhat: if you don't see that the hierarchical system used on IRC is against the very principles of Anonymous, i can't have any reason to communicate with you
21:15:56 <mama> we are in different planets :p
21:16:46 <joepie91> morning..
21:17:10 <joepie91> mama: did you ever respond to my response to that document?
21:17:20 <joepie91> because it was kind of completely broken...
21:17:42 * joepie91 hasn't seen any counter-highlights
21:17:54 <mama> joepie91: i read it and saw you were right because the project wasn't well explained
21:18:11 <mama> so i asked them to add tech details
21:18:18 <mama> it is done now
21:18:28 <joepie91> I see
21:18:50 <mama> http://www.freeanons.info/wiki/index.php?title=New_Chat_System_Project
21:19:20 <mama> i will never ask you to help for it, but your opinions are usually accurate
21:21:40 <joepie91> mama: I am reading the thing about IRC networks now that was added
21:21:44 <joepie91> but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense...
21:22:04 <joepie91> "IRC networks make use of scanner [...]" etc
21:22:19 <joepie91> there are a few factually valid remarks in that, but most of that paragraph seems like over-exaggerated fearmongering
21:23:20 * DrWhat is looking for some c++ code hes lost somewere on 1 of his harddrives
21:23:33 <joepie91> find / | grep "\.cpp"
21:24:01 <DrWhat> found it
21:24:03 <joepie91> :-Safe Room - We are attempting to link with a totally anonymous irc, a nick-less chat area developed by others for use when whistle-blowing or other ultra-clandestine communications are required beyond even our basic model.
21:24:05 <joepie91> ^ ?
21:24:17 * DrWhat looks for he protcal
21:24:34 <joepie91> "End to end data encryption added to Tor can defeat the problems inherent and Tor alone is certainly not the entire solution, just a small part of it."
21:24:42 <joepie91> hidden services are end-to-end encrypted by default...
21:24:45 <joepie91> as is anything using SSL
21:25:12 <joepie91> also, the latency issue in TOR is hardly relevant for a chat protocol
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21:26:15 <joepie91> JAP/JonDo is also inherently weaker by design
21:26:20 <joepie91> because it has a very restricted set of operators
21:26:23 <joepie91> it's far more centralized than TOR
21:26:28 <joepie91> calling it "truly anonymous" is nonsense
21:26:42 <joepie91> as in
21:26:44 <joepie91> "For now its safe to say that using JAP/JonDo or Tor along with certain 'best practices' can truly hide your IP."
21:27:03 <joepie91> JAP/JonDo still strongly relies on trust...
21:27:26 <joepie91> the issue with the document talking about attack vulnerabilities for a web client is still there
21:27:33 <joepie91> (as in, no explanation is given for it)
21:28:25 <joepie91> "The system , as envisioned and now in a very early alpha phase of development, is not based upon standard Open Source irc code. It relies on a multiple layer remote login, security gateways utilizing complex passwords, and in some cases re-captcha like human being validations, encryption, hardened minimal servers , and additional user-elected layers like Tor or JAP for anonymity functions as required."
21:28:29 <joepie91> this makes me feel a bit iffy
21:28:41 <joepie91> it's as if the writer implies that open-source somehow means insecure
21:28:54 <joepie91> regardless of whether that's intended, that's how it appears to come across
21:29:07 <joepie91> otherwise, there would be no reason to use the term 'open-source' in the sentence
21:31:49 <mama> the latency with tor is a real problem, that is why they will try to make otherway possible without tor but protecting IPs
21:32:00 <joepie91> impossible
21:32:08 <joepie91> reducing the latency would involved removing hops
21:32:11 <joepie91> which breaks the TOR security model
21:32:14 <joepie91> the latency is there, and you'll have to deal with it
21:32:15 <mama> i will put your comments on the pad and bring up answers
21:32:18 <joepie91> and tbh, it really isn't that bad
21:32:28 <DrWhat> tor latancy is really bad
21:32:42 * joepie91 hasn't had issues with either TOR speed or latency..
21:32:49 <joepie91> I've pulled 600KB/sec over TOR in the past
21:32:56 <joepie91> and my latency has always been good enough for SSH and IRC
21:32:59 <DrWhat> it takes up and over 1 minute to go on a .onion
21:33:09 <joepie91> then you're connecting over a shitty route
21:33:10 <DrWhat> if that were chat
21:33:15 <joepie91> the few times I've used an onion, it was quite fast
21:33:24 <joepie91> just pick 'new identity'
21:33:27 <joepie91> and problem will probably be solved
21:33:27 <DrWhat> it be 2 minute before a message exsistaed
21:33:36 <joepie91> the issue with 0.5KB/sec TOR routes really is a think of the past
21:33:42 <joepie91> right, that's what 'new identity' exists for
21:33:49 <joepie91> (or well, technically not)
21:33:52 <joepie91> (but it solves the issue)
21:34:06 <DrWhat> on a funny note
21:34:13 <DrWhat> that snippet of code i was lookinf for
21:34:14 <DrWhat> void print_shit (int out)
21:34:14 <DrWhat> {
21:34:14 <DrWhat> char **p;
21:34:14 <DrWhat> register int i;
21:34:14 <DrWhat> print(1, 0, out, "- shit list:");
21:34:14 <DrWhat> for (i=0, p=conf.shit; i<MAX_SHITS; ++i, ++p)
21:34:14 <DrWhat> if (*p)
21:34:14 <DrWhat> {
21:34:14 <DrWhat> if (strchr(*p, ':'))
21:34:14 <DrWhat> print(1, 0, out, "[%d] %s", i, *p);
21:34:15 <DrWhat> else
21:34:16 <DrWhat> print(1, 0, out, "[%d] %s :no reason", i, *p);
21:34:17 <DrWhat> }
21:34:18 <DrWhat> }
21:34:20 <joepie91> argh
21:34:22 <joepie91> DrWhat: pastebin
21:34:33 <joepie91> also, mama, I've noticed that there's a lot of buzzword-ish text on the page
21:34:39 <joepie91> text that doesn't really explain or say anything
21:34:43 <joepie91> and appears to serve mostly to make it look impressive
21:34:53 <joepie91> if you want to write a properly readable tech document, get rid of that
21:35:01 <joepie91> things like this:
21:35:02 <joepie91> The prototype, as it exists now, is accessed thru a terminal emulation front-end,and is not optimized sufficiently yet due to its generic nature. Customized settings and plugins for the client are supported somewhat sufficiently now, but need optimization and more customized solutions. Non-standard ports are also utilized, along with a long term goal solution for hard-to-predict combinations which are regularly
21:35:02 <joepie91> updated , encrypted, to clients that use the system(s).
21:35:13 <DrWhat> http://pastebin.com/VgetKgdR
21:36:11 <joepie91> mama: most of my previous criticism also still applies
21:36:18 <joepie91> I can summarize this document in 3 lines
21:36:19 <mama> if we run the server with ppl using VPNs and encryptions it's ungodly fast
21:36:21 <joepie91> and that's not a good thing
21:36:21 <mama> Tor is not necessary, in that respect, for IP obfuscation
21:36:23 <mama> BUT if ppl want to use it, fine.
21:36:24 <mama> It can work either way
21:36:25 <mama> There's like many ways to obscure IPs
21:36:27 <mama> We don't log them anyway, but if they want a tor obfuscation it works. I have some options for the servers too, yes
21:36:29 <mama> Tor is just going to be too slow for some ppl
21:36:30 <joepie91> mama: VPNs are terribly insecure
21:36:31 <mama> so we plan to support that and other means of connect
21:36:32 <mama> No webpage connects tho
21:36:34 <mama> not yet, anyway
21:36:38 <joepie91> if you're serious about anonymity, you will not use VPNs
21:36:43 <mama> yes, we know
21:36:56 <joepie91> TOR exists for a reason
21:37:13 <mama> There's like many ways to obscure IPs
21:37:16 <joepie91> no
21:37:17 <joepie91> there really isn't
21:37:33 <joepie91> there's currently exactly one reliable and secure method to hide your identity
21:37:33 <joepie91> and that is TOR
21:37:40 <DrWhat> i use VPN's
21:37:47 <DrWhat> I paid 0 for it
21:37:48 <joepie91> VPNs are terrible, JAP/JonDonym is too centralized
21:37:49 <DrWhat> :P
21:38:04 <joepie91> public proxies can be logging logging and single-hop (just like VPNs)
21:38:06 <DrWhat> I like security kiss
21:38:16 <DrWhat> Public proxys are honey pots
21:38:21 <joepie91> DrWhat: if it's a VPN, it's insecure
21:38:23 <joepie91> I don't care what VPN
21:38:24 <DrWhat> Logg you passwords and everthing
21:38:50 <joepie91> the only real difference is the bandwidth and the server location and the payment method or amount
21:38:51 <joepie91> other than that, all VPNs operate exactly the same
21:52:15 *** Xeross is now known as Xeross|AFK
21:57:25 <DrWhat> so is that it?
21:57:38 <DrWhat> its still stupidology
22:00:09 AnonyOps[m] (anony_ops@cryto-5167D786.woh.res.rr.com) has joined #crytocc
22:02:17 <DrWhat> hi AnonyOps[m]
22:02:21 <DrWhat> you missed the party
22:02:28 <AnonyOps[m]> hi
22:02:33 <AnonyOps[m]> Which party?
22:02:50 <DrWhat> look in loggy's logs
22:03:14 <DrWhat> also can somone proof read https://github.com/DrWhatNoName/EvoMap
22:03:32 <DrWhat> I found a xss i totaly overlooked
22:03:53 <DrWhat> just wonder if anyone can anything else i mite of missed
22:04:13 <AnonyOps[m]> um
22:04:21 <AnonyOps[m]> That's a lot of logs to go through lol
22:04:26 <AnonyOps[m]> when did this happen?
22:06:57 <DrWhat> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/2013-05-08#T19-50-01
22:07:30 zest (zest@cryto-C630644E.is.a.tor.exit.server.torland.is) has joined #crytocc
22:10:04 <AnonyOps[m]> hm
22:11:08 <AnonyOps[m]> so a distro is now vuln to web attacks?
22:16:38 <DrWhat> yup
22:21:12 <AnonyOps[m]> lel
22:25:24 <zxcvbnm> I feel like it was written by a bunch of 12 year olds :(
22:26:52 speakeasy (speakeasy@speakeasy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
22:28:30 <DrWhat> thats partly why i was so angry
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22:29:33 <AnonyOps[m]> lol
22:29:44 <AnonyOps[m]> might have been actually haha
22:30:27 <DrWhat> what do you think AnonyOps[m] does anon need a new form of communication?
22:30:41 <AnonyOps[m]> meh a lot of people are going to jabber
22:31:01 <AnonyOps[m]> I really don't know though. I don't really hang around anonops or anything
22:31:09 <AnonyOps[m]> this is the only place I go anymore
22:31:25 <DrWhat> same
22:31:34 <DrWhat> I dont really use jabber either :P
22:31:49 <DrWhat> Only use it for private reason
22:31:59 joepie91 (joepie91@cryto-3E6002EF.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
22:39:47 <AnonyOps[m]> heh
22:39:51 <AnonyOps[m]> ima get off here
22:39:55 <AnonyOps[m]> bye!
22:39:59 AnonyOps[m] has quit (User quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
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22:56:01 Cryto650 (Cryto650@869DB322.D757059E.F76E3C6D.IP) has joined #crytocc
22:56:40 <Cryto650> hey
22:58:05 Cryto650 has quit (User quit: Page closed)
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23:15:08 zxcvbnm has quit (User quit: Lost terminal)
23:22:10 <lady-3jane> DICKS
23:25:20 <joepie91> dicks indeed
23:25:20 <joepie91> !
23:25:25 <joepie91> installing 10 gigs of games from repo now...
23:25:27 <lady-3jane> !
23:25:28 <lady-3jane> :D
23:25:48 <lady-3jane> urg
23:25:55 <joepie91> curious to try some of these
23:25:57 <joepie91> there's a few gems in there
23:25:59 <lady-3jane> I dunno why, but running the archiveteam warrior destroys my computer
23:26:10 <joepie91> I've been thinking about creating a non-VM script
23:26:11 <lady-3jane> I think it's the random bouts of COMPRESSGZIP
23:26:17 <joepie91> that'll just grab the scripts
23:26:19 <joepie91> and run them in current distro
23:26:25 <joepie91> for me, the VM overhead kills it
23:26:30 <lady-3jane> ahh, yeah
23:26:37 <lady-3jane> it's totally fucking up my memory management
23:26:51 <lady-3jane> cause the VM can't indicate to the OS what is pageable
23:26:55 <joepie91> :P
23:26:58 <lady-3jane> so it can't page :(
23:27:07 <lady-3jane> which pushed... I don't even know
23:27:13 <lady-3jane> 700mb of shit into swap?
23:27:14 <lady-3jane> :(
23:27:21 <lady-3jane> I dunno why so much
23:27:36 <lady-3jane> AGH
23:27:42 <lady-3jane> WHY DO I KEEP GETTING SPAMMED
23:27:57 <lady-3jane> WHO THE FUCK THINKS IT'S EFFECTIVE TO SPAM ME LINKS TO BITCOIN MALWARE
23:28:01 <lady-3jane> IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE A GOOD SELL
23:28:22 <lady-3jane> NO GOOD PUNCHLINE, NO FUCKING SLOGAN. NOTHING.
23:28:31 <lady-3jane> AT LEAST SELL ME ON YOUR MALWARE, ASSHOLES
23:28:57 * lady-3jane falcon punches
23:29:53 <lady-3jane> are there any decent (by my standards) wordpress themes? I want to modify one to suck less.
23:30:33 <lady-3jane> currently using runo lite, but the fonts are shit
23:30:51 <joepie91> lady-3jane: use the one I'm using on my blog
23:30:52 <joepie91> and modify it
23:30:56 <joepie91> it's a good starting point
23:30:57 <joepie91> :P
23:31:26 * lady-3jane looks
23:31:40 <lady-3jane> I found a lot of "longform" themes, but they all suck
23:31:46 <lady-3jane> their fonts are shit, or they try to do EVERYTHING
23:31:53 <lady-3jane> instead of trying to display FUCKING TEXT
23:32:03 <lady-3jane> Which, as a longform theme, IS THEIR ONLY FUCKING JOB
23:32:04 <lady-3jane> >:D
23:32:33 <joepie91> YOU HAD ONE JOB
23:32:33 <joepie91> :P
23:32:46 <lady-3jane> yeah.
23:32:49 <lady-3jane> just so.
23:33:08 <lady-3jane> If wordpress wasn't such a giant piece of shit I'd consider just writing one
23:33:13 zest (zest@cryto-C763062.shulgin.dc1.nl.tor.exit.node.qwertyoruiop.com) has joined #crytocc
23:33:19 <lady-3jane> maybe I'll do what I do and steal one, and evolve it into something useable
23:33:45 <lady-3jane> All my best work is cleverly stolen anyway, like most
23:33:59 <lady-3jane> well, programming
23:34:02 <lady-3jane> lol
23:34:57 <lady-3jane> hahaha joepie91 I look at your theme and I'm like "I'd change that and that and that and that
23:34:58 <lady-3jane> "
23:35:09 <lady-3jane> fuck
23:35:44 <lady-3jane> hybrid was the one I liked the most
23:35:53 <joepie91> ;p;
23:36:03 <joepie91> :P *
23:37:02 <lady-3jane> but now it's not showing me styles?
23:37:04 <lady-3jane> that's weird
23:37:09 <lady-3jane> hybrid has no styling O.o
23:38:12 <lady-3jane> er, wat
23:38:22 <lady-3jane> manifest(o?) isn't in their thing
23:39:38 <lady-3jane> weiiiird
23:41:14 <lady-3jane> hmm
23:41:22 <lady-3jane> oh some of the bootstrap ones have finally shown up
23:42:32 zest has quit (User quit: hf)
23:45:17 <lady-3jane> urg
23:45:29 <lady-3jane> I searched for one column, and none of them are one column
23:45:45 <lady-3jane> they ALL have the fucking meta, calendar, search, etc boxes in a right hand column
23:45:48 <lady-3jane> BITCHES
23:46:53 <lady-3jane> wow, that's sad
23:47:12 <lady-3jane> the only decent one so far is named "clean retina" because it's for retina displays, whatever the fuck that actually implies