Cryto! 8 February 2013
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00:21:46 <twitchyliquid64> good evening gentlement
00:21:49 <twitchyliquid64> *men
00:26:06 <joepie91> ohai twitchyliquid64
00:26:11 <twitchyliquid64> hai
00:26:15 <joepie91> as you might have noticed, our main hub is out of commision again
00:26:23 <twitchyliquid64> yep
00:26:32 <twitchyliquid64> who needs it anyway
00:26:41 <joepie91> well, it sort of has the services on it
00:26:41 <joepie91> lol
00:26:51 <joepie91> either way, you were aware of logging right?
00:26:54 <joepie91> I forgot who I informed
00:27:38 <twitchyliquid64> yes, you told me
00:28:51 <joepie91> okay :P
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01:03:02 <kr0x> Hi again.
01:08:56 <joepie91> ohai
01:22:20 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Finaly kickstarter is working.
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02:17:38 <flyingpenis> joepie91:) did you have an archive of the cryptoanarchy wiki?
02:23:13 <joepie91> yes
02:23:17 <joepie91> http://joepie91.archivingyoursh.it/
02:23:42 <twitchyliquid64> I dont get NSFW
02:23:53 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: ?
02:24:00 <twitchyliquid64> NSFW
02:24:18 <joepie91> as in, you don't know what it means?
02:24:29 <joepie91> Not Safe For Work or Not Safe For Wife (usually the former)
02:24:33 <twitchyliquid64> well, i know what it stand for
02:24:37 <twitchyliquid64> I just dont see the point
02:24:41 <joepie91> ?
02:24:50 <flyingpenis> is there a public warc viewer?
02:24:54 <joepie91> flyingpenis: warc-proxy
02:24:58 <flyingpenis> danke
02:24:58 <joepie91> it's on github
02:25:10 <joepie91> probably http://github.com/alard/warc-proxy
02:25:11 <joepie91> or something
02:25:22 <flyingpenis> yeah
02:26:22 <twitchyliquid64> whats WARC?
02:27:26 <lady-3jane> targz with a fuckload of extra metadata
02:27:34 <twitchyliquid64> whats TARGZ?
02:27:35 <joepie91> is it tar.gz?
02:27:42 <joepie91> I thought it was an ARC derivative
02:27:48 <twitchyliquid64> Whats ARC?
02:27:52 <flyingpenis> oh, is it? I always assumed it was a targz
02:27:54 <joepie91> jesus christ twitchyliquid64
02:27:54 <joepie91> google
02:27:54 <flyingpenis> twitchyliquid64:) google
02:28:01 <twitchyliquid64> whats google?
02:28:06 <twitchyliquid64> :P
02:28:08 <joepie91> I'm not a /usr/bin/dict
02:28:54 <twitchyliquid64> ARC = Australian Research Council?
02:29:17 <flyingpenis> ahh, arc makes sense haha
02:29:20 <twitchyliquid64> WARC = Shortwave radio bands?
02:29:38 <twitchyliquid64> or maybe the marketing service called warc
02:29:58 <twitchyliquid64> And im not getting anything relevant for TARGZ
02:30:01 <twitchyliquid64> so guise
02:30:03 <twitchyliquid64> what are they?
02:30:21 <twitchyliquid64> (hint: short acronyms almost never qualify as decent search terms)
02:31:24 <flyingpenis> dude, it's not an acronym
02:31:29 <flyingpenis> it's a file extension
02:31:39 <flyingpenis> and warc is not targz, it's an iso standard
02:31:44 <flyingpenis> ISO 28500:2009
02:32:03 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: you're just lazyhttp://owely.com/41klMsp
02:32:06 <flyingpenis> The WARC (Web ARChive) file format offers a convention for concatenating multiple resource records (data objects), each consisting of a set of simple text headers and an arbitrary data block into one long file. The WARC format is an extension of the ARC File Format [ARC] that has traditionally been used to store "web crawls" as sequences of content blocks harvested from the World Wide Web.
02:32:08 <joepie91> lazy http://owely.com/41klMsp *
02:36:44 <lady-3jane> motherfucking recursive portupgrade, damn
02:37:36 <lady-3jane> ahh shit I just rebuilt erlang. I really need to rm that.
02:39:12 <joepie91> (is this the moment where you start hating bsd?)
02:40:40 <lady-3jane> Nah, it's the moment where I start hating zach for installing an xmpp server, failing to get it working, removing it, and not all the bullshit packages it drug in too.
02:40:54 <lady-3jane> lol
02:43:07 <lady-3jane> I still love bsd
02:43:20 <lady-3jane> It's an unnatural love, I know, but I love it.
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02:44:09 <lady-3jane> sadly zach's trying to move everything to ubuntu server (because it's "easy")
02:44:16 <lady-3jane> I'm refusing to let my server be converted
02:44:51 <lady-3jane> I'm trying to decide if I want to convince him to change it to openbsd... but that means he wouldn't be able to admin it at all, because he doesn't know shit about openbsd
02:45:27 <lady-3jane> (not that that is a bad thing. love me some admin work)
02:55:58 <joepie91> :P
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03:03:52 * joepie91 waits
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03:28:48 <joepie91> there we go
03:28:50 <joepie91> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AnkP_cVZTCMLIzw4DvsW6M8Q2JC0lIzrTLuoWu2z1BE/edit
03:28:52 <joepie91> BitcoinX is an idea to separate the bitcoin network (technology) from the value of a currency (community) using the bitcoin network to clear transaction and avoid double spending.
03:28:52 <joepie91> BitcoinX aims to provide an easy way to create different currencies on top of the bitcoin network
03:29:05 <joepie91> this is either really good or really bad
03:29:12 <twitchyliquid64> why do we need extra currencies?
03:29:18 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: read the paper
03:29:50 <twitchyliquid64> WILCO
03:30:14 <joepie91> also http://i.imgur.com/qPaXcpS.png
03:33:18 <wh1t3r4bb1t> As The Rush Comes (Gabriel & Dresden Chill Out Mix)
03:33:18 <wh1t3r4bb1t> by Motorcycle
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03:38:57 <lady-3jane> joepie91:) https://github.com/jsebrech/php-o
03:40:29 <joepie91> lady-3jane: huh, interesting
03:40:32 <joepie91> where'd you find it
03:40:42 <lady-3jane> hackernews
03:48:21 <ryan> you can't fix PHP
03:48:26 <ryan> especially not with PHP
03:48:29 <twitchyliquid64> LOOOOOL
03:49:10 <joepie91> I'd be inclined to agree
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03:53:40 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I've read every line of WP code to see if it could be used for login account management (users have a separate account for their financial data in the postgre DB) and I haven't found any problems. In fact they protect very well against sqli attacks
03:55:03 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Besides you cant inject to the api I'm building through WP because the api uses PDO.
03:56:38 <wh1t3r4bb1t> So I thik it's much easier to use WP as the engine for the user data and login account management as opposed to reinventing the wheel. The API that manages all user financial related functionality is not vulnerable.
03:57:42 <joepie91> "reinventing the wheel" = http://pastie.org/private/aozruzv2p6tykrybczzgg
03:57:49 <joepie91> user system
03:57:51 <joepie91> you're welcome
03:59:15 <twitchyliquid64> joepie91: ETA on CrytoTeam? :P
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04:02:00 <joepie91> when it's done
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04:02:15 * twitchyliquid64 throws a form at joepie91
04:02:57 <wh1t3r4bb1t> lol
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04:05:14 <twitchyliquid64> hellooooooo bot!
04:06:08 * joepie91 throws a display: block; at twitchyliquid64
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04:07:04 * twitchyliquid64 throws a defer panic() at joepie91
04:07:17 <joepie91> DON'T DO THAT
04:07:21 <joepie91> IT FUCKS UP MY SHIT
04:07:22 <joepie91> D:
04:09:16 <twitchyliquid64> all you need then is a defer recover()
04:09:17 <twitchyliquid64> :D
04:10:20 <wh1t3r4bb1t> nerds
04:20:36 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Paradise (Tiesto Remix)
04:20:36 <wh1t3r4bb1t> by Coldplay
04:20:36 <wh1t3r4bb1t> on Princess Of China - EP
04:21:02 <lady-3jane> NP: [Yes - Owner Of A Lonely Heart] [FABRICLIVE.33] [852kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
04:21:10 * lady-3jane wrote a script for that shit
04:25:15 <twitchyliquid64> Paradise remix
04:25:17 <twitchyliquid64> is awesome
04:47:04 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Eyes
04:47:04 <wh1t3r4bb1t> by Kaskade
04:47:17 <lady-3jane> joepie91:) you up? services are down :(
04:49:07 <joepie91> oh
04:49:08 <joepie91> fuck
04:49:09 <joepie91> sorry
04:49:09 <joepie91> sec
04:49:19 <joepie91> hub was rebooted
04:49:21 <joepie91> forgot to restart services
04:49:21 <joepie91> ._.
04:49:36 *** SpaghettiCode changed the topic to: "Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICLY LOGGED CHANNEL. http://wire.cryto.net/logs | http://cryto.net/, http://forums.cryto.net/ | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Online Flash IDE: http://wonderfl.net/about/ | Cryto Research: http://research.cryto.net/ | RIP Aaron Swartz"
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04:49:39 <joepie91> there we go
04:49:46 <joepie91> apologies
04:50:08 <ryan> I'm a federal agent
04:52:32 <wh1t3r4bb1t> oh look a paramecium.
04:54:02 <lady-3jane> It's cool :)
05:10:35 <joepie91> okay
05:10:39 <joepie91> it's time for a PHP WTF
05:10:42 <joepie91> http://codepad.org/k1FyZKa8
05:10:49 <joepie91> like, really, PHP?
05:11:30 <joepie91> how the hell does the " in that expanded variable not act as a string delimiter
05:13:19 <lady-3jane> because lulz
05:14:16 <joepie91> I seriously don't even
05:14:48 <lady-3jane> probably for the same reason that sometimes $variables aren't variables
05:14:52 <lady-3jane> e.e
05:21:41 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I'll never forget meeting Deadmau5.
05:22:17 <wh1t3r4bb1t> That was one of the best nights of my life. I also acquired a new girlfriend that night. ;)
05:22:27 <lady-3jane> did you buy her?
05:23:31 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Lol you think so highly of me. And no.
05:24:01 <lady-3jane> nah, you just said acquired which I say when I buy or steal something
05:24:37 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Accumulated might be abetter word.
05:24:58 <joepie91> that sounds scarier.
05:25:02 <joepie91> anyway
05:25:02 <joepie91> sleep
05:25:03 <joepie91> night all
05:25:26 <wh1t3r4bb1t> l8r
05:26:00 <lady-3jane> How, exactly, do you accumulate women?
05:28:13 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I tell em I want em to by my girlfriend. Duh.
05:28:20 <wh1t3r4bb1t> be*
05:28:45 <wh1t3r4bb1t> The Longest Road (Deadmau5 Remix Radio Edit)
05:28:45 <wh1t3r4bb1t> by Morgan Page
05:28:56 <lady-3jane> NP: [Purity Ring - Lofticries] [Shrines] [2665kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
05:29:39 <lady-3jane> woot woot
05:29:41 <lady-3jane> NP: [Movits - Fel Del Av Gården] [Äppelknyckarjazz] [896kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
05:29:55 <lady-3jane> swedish hipster rap!
05:29:56 <lady-3jane> :D
05:38:16 <lady-3jane> NP: [Ugly Duckling - Dumb it Down] [Taste the Secret] [910kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
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05:55:33 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I Will Be Here (Tiesto Remix)
05:55:33 <wh1t3r4bb1t> by Tiesto
05:55:33 <wh1t3r4bb1t> on Kaleidoscope (Remixed)
05:57:49 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Fire In Your New Shoes
05:57:49 <wh1t3r4bb1t> by Kaskade
05:57:49 <wh1t3r4bb1t> on Dynasty
06:16:22 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Why this no work? http://jsfiddle.net/x4MWN/2/
06:19:57 <wh1t3r4bb1t> NVM its working there now but still not working on the site.
06:30:09 <lady-3jane> NP: [Marilyn Manson - This Is The New Shit] [Lest We Forget: The Best Of] [1001kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
06:40:49 <lady-3jane> NP: [Midival Punditz - Bhangra Fever (Piyush Bhatnagar Remix)] [Transnational Dubstep] [979kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
06:52:48 <lady-3jane> best comment ever
06:52:55 <lady-3jane> "Look again! Your botnet is now diamonds!"
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08:08:18 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Stickam is closing!!! FTW!
08:11:45 <AnonForecast> lol
08:11:47 <wh1t3r4bb1t> :sad panda:
08:21:13 <lady-3jane> you're giving some seriously mixed messages
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09:39:07 <wh1t3r4bb1t> chut ap
09:49:35 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Fucking nigger press is pissing me off.
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12:16:59 <twitchyliquid64> wh1t3r4bb1t: elaborate on how you picked up a girl when chilling with Deadmau5 :P
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12:26:19 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I wasn't chill'n with Deadmau5. I just met him that same night. It was before he was huge at a rave in Las Vegas. I was on molly and I saw him standing there next to the stage entrance without his mau5 head. I said what's up bro. And he said "What's up!". Then I said this is a fucking bad ass show. He said, "I know.". Then he disappeared and came back with his mau5 head and was like "Are you ready?" And I was like, "Hahaha I
12:26:19 <wh1t3r4bb1t> knew you were part of the show somehow!" He just walked up the side stairs to the stage putting his mau5 head on as he went. Everyone went nuts and then I started hanging out with the girl I mentioned who I liked since I saw her at my friend's house. We hooked up that night and went home together and hooked up some more and ended up dating for like 8 months.
12:28:23 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Joel is just a dud who makes music. Just like I do. It wasn't awkward or anything we just said a few words to each other and then he did his thing.
12:28:29 <wh1t3r4bb1t> dude*
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15:08:21 <joepie91> <wh1t3r4bb1t>Stickam is closing!!! FTW!
15:08:22 <joepie91> really?
15:26:03 * lady-3jane wobbles
15:26:24 <lady-3jane> got up early, did my health assignment. Now back to sleep for the entire class.
15:31:50 <joepie91> lol lady-3jane
15:39:05 <lady-3jane> yup
15:39:08 <lady-3jane> it's fucking health
15:39:27 <lady-3jane> multicultural health even, so it's 1/4 interesting instead of 1/10th
15:40:57 <joepie91> this is interesting: http://www.medicaljane.com/exposed-the-full-story-behind-why-marijuana-is-illegal-and-classified-as-a-schedule-1-drug/?fb_action_ids=10151482658716420&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%2210151482658716420%22%3A139290696230747}&action_type_map={%2210151482658716420%22%3A%22og.likes%22}&action_ref_map
15:43:18 <flyingpenis> does it talk about hearst?
15:43:38 <flyingpenis> one of my teachers in highschool gave us a full history on it
15:43:46 <flyingpenis> when he wasn't.... on duty as a teacher
15:43:51 <flyingpenis> because that can get you fired
15:43:52 <flyingpenis> e.e
15:44:00 <joepie91> yes, yes it does talk about hearst
15:44:04 <flyingpenis> (promoting drug use or something)
15:44:05 <joepie91> and, not surprised
15:44:06 <flyingpenis> good
15:44:08 <flyingpenis> :D
15:44:18 <flyingpenis> haha
15:44:22 <flyingpenis> dupont, hearst, paper
15:44:24 <flyingpenis> yeah it's all here
15:44:25 <flyingpenis> good
16:13:36 <joepie91> flyingpenis:
16:13:40 <joepie91> While it's hard to understate the potential significance of the startup's ACE accreditation, it hasn't been all sunshine, moonbeams and periwinkles for Coursera. The platform recently suffered its first big disaster an ironic one, to boot when one of its courses crashed just one week in and has subsequently been suspended. And what was that course, you ask? Why it was the "Fundamentals of Online Education:
16:13:40 <joepie91> Planning and Application," of course. Oh, the bittersweet irony.
16:13:47 <joepie91> lol'd
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18:32:41 <joepie91> I'm getting less and less impressed by the CC network every day
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18:32:58 <joepie91> so
18:33:16 <joepie91> Riemann monitors distributed systems. http://riemann.io/
18:33:30 <joepie91> really does sound like an open-source new relic kind of thing
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18:37:46 <R4mJ> hi
18:38:30 <joepie91> hai
18:39:00 <R4mJ> sei italiano?
18:39:33 <joepie91> no, this is generally speaking an English-speaking channel
18:39:38 <joepie91> I think we do have one or two Italian users around though
18:40:25 <R4mJ> so you understand italaian language then you are italian ;)
18:41:25 <R4mJ> is it? ;)
18:42:42 <joepie91> personally, I'm just fairly good at reading things in languages I don't necessarily speak
18:42:43 <joepie91> :)
18:43:01 * joepie91 is not Italian, nor does he speak Italian
18:44:51 <R4mJ> ) however sorry for the later but i'm speaking with telnet client XD because i'm at school XD
18:45:40 <joepie91> heh, classy
18:45:45 <joepie91> :)
18:45:51 <joepie91> have you considered using a web-based client?
18:46:13 <joepie91> there's http://irc.lc/cryto/crytocc as web-based client for example
18:46:27 <R4mJ> LOL why do you write this? :D
18:47:25 <joepie91> ?
18:47:37 <R4mJ> i can't becouausae is not sure
18:48:59 <R4mJ> and some websites are locked :)
18:49:14 <IR601> lol telnet
18:49:42 <R4mJ> are you there? :D
18:50:29 <joepie91> ahh, in that sense
18:50:29 <R4mJ> LOL
18:50:32 <joepie91> well, this one probably isn't
18:50:38 <joepie91> (blocked)
18:51:43 R4mJ has quit (Client exited)
18:52:20 <IR601> detention lol
19:01:03 <joepie91> nah
19:01:06 <joepie91> I think he forgot to PONG
19:01:07 <joepie91> lol
19:02:51 <joepie91> loggy, pointer
19:02:51 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/2013-02-08#T19-02-51
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19:27:59 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
19:28:16 <joepie91> OH GODDAMNIT
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19:28:40 <joepie91> stupid cc
19:28:47 <joepie91> right, anyway
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19:41:34 <joepie91> ohai naSignal
19:41:39 <naSignal> joepie91, you have time for me? Regarding IRC cocky shit?
19:41:50 <naSignal> hi
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19:50:38 <monod> hello peep
19:50:42 <monod> *afk now*
20:00:03 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:00:12 <joepie91> hai monod
20:00:17 <joepie91> multiloggy, pointer?
20:00:18 <multiloggy> http://nowhere/2013-02-08#T20-00-17
20:00:21 <joepie91> multiloggy, help?
20:00:21 <multiloggy> I'm a Python IRC logging bot. Source: http://inamidst.com/code/loggy.py Logging to: http://nowhere/
20:00:25 <joepie91> okay
20:00:43 <joepie91> that seems fine
20:00:48 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
20:03:27 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:03:31 <joepie91> whee
20:03:38 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
20:03:51 <joepie91> lol I broke it
20:04:47 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:04:51 AnonyOps (anony_ops@cryto-5167D786.woh.res.rr.com) has joined #crytocc
20:04:55 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
20:05:04 tmbucky (tmbucky@cryto-454686D9.compute-1.amazonaws.com) has joined #crytocc
20:05:07 <AnonyOps> How in the hell, is this related to Anon??? http://anonyops.com/viewpost.php?id=676
20:05:10 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:05:11 Matrix has quit (Ping timeout)
20:05:12 multiloggy has quit (Connection reset by peer)
20:05:39 <joepie91> hahahahaha
20:05:42 <joepie91> egofag
20:05:48 <joepie91> is my guess
20:06:23 <AnonyOps> hm...
20:06:23 tmbucky has quit (User quit: Connection closed)
20:06:29 <AnonyOps> this month has been busy for my site
20:06:34 <AnonyOps> for some reason
20:06:36 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:06:40 <AnonyOps> more hits than normal, only slightly though
20:06:57 <AnonyOps> but steady
20:07:02 <joepie91> idk
20:07:07 <joepie91> also, testing logbot
20:07:07 <joepie91> patched version
20:07:10 Matrix (hackbook@4DD35523.6464AF6B.F0DF4C69.IP) has joined #crytocc
20:07:10 <joepie91> multi channel support
20:07:11 <joepie91> :P
20:07:13 <AnonyOps> seen an increase in anonnews?
20:07:21 <AnonyOps> ah nice lol
20:07:36 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
20:07:36 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/2013-02-08#T20-07-36
20:07:39 <joepie91> er
20:07:41 <joepie91> wrong loggy
20:07:41 <joepie91> lol
20:07:44 <joepie91> multiloggy, pointer?
20:07:45 <multiloggy> http://nowhere/#crytocc/2013-02-08#T20-07-44
20:07:47 <joepie91> aw
20:07:48 <joepie91> crap
20:07:48 <joepie91> sec
20:08:14 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
20:08:16 multiloggy (multiloggy@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:08:22 <joepie91> multiloggy, pointer?
20:08:22 <multiloggy> http://nowhere/crytocc/2013-02-08#T20-08-22
20:08:25 <joepie91> that's better
20:08:29 <joepie91> :)
20:09:08 <joepie91> <joepie91>multiloggy, pointer?
20:09:09 <joepie91> <multiloggy>http://nowhere/cryto/2013-02-08#T20-08-59
20:09:16 <joepie91> good
20:11:12 <joepie91> right
20:11:14 <joepie91> test time
20:11:16 joepie91 (joepie91@joepie91.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
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20:11:32 joepie91 (joepie91@joepie91.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
20:11:42 <joepie91> now we just need something to /quit
20:11:50 joepie93 (joepie91@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:11:52 joepie93 has quit (User quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
20:11:53 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
20:12:00 joepie93 (joepie91@cryto-A6766B2C.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:12:04 <joepie91> ah, I broke it
20:12:42 <joepie91> <type 'exceptions.IOError'>: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'logs/ser quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de/2013-02-08.txt'
20:12:45 <joepie91> yeah, uh...
20:12:48 <joepie91> lol
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20:25:25 <joepie91> okay
20:26:28 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
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20:31:18 <joepie91> almost done
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20:31:37 <joepie91> yay!
20:34:26 <joepie91> okay
20:34:27 <joepie91> final test
20:34:31 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
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20:36:49 <joepie91> okay
20:36:50 <joepie91> done!
20:36:57 <monod> lulz
20:37:07 <monod> so many times join/part
20:37:17 <monod> *afknomoree*
20:37:39 <monod> joepie, does for you have sense "plead with nothing"?
20:37:53 <joepie91> no, can you describe what you mean?
20:37:53 <monod> sholdn't it be plead FOR nothing?
20:38:45 <monod> just trying to figure out some lyrics
20:39:20 <monod> people say it's "plead with nothing", but to me makes no sense and also I hear "plead with no mean", which has a little more sense imo
20:40:00 <monod> no sense <= because I think it should be "plead FOR nothing", in case.
20:40:33 <joepie91> well, I'm not sure what it's refering to eitgher way
20:40:35 <joepie91> :P
20:40:36 <joepie91> either *
20:42:03 <monod> Hmm, it is not important, I was wondering about the meaning/the existence of such word usage
20:42:16 <monod> check this out P: ---> http://play.typeracer.com/?universe=coder
20:42:52 <monod> P: <--- mouth-watering
20:43:08 <joepie91> I've played typeracer fairly often
20:43:11 <joepie91> I do much better from memory, though
20:43:13 <joepie91> also
20:43:16 <joepie91> https://github.com/joepie91/multiloggy
20:43:19 <joepie91> multi-channel logbot
20:43:22 <joepie91> :)
20:43:52 <monod> (wrong URL, sorry, http://play.typeracer.com/?universe=code ... this is a programming text subset :))
20:43:57 <monod> I'll check it out now!
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21:13:56 <flyingpenis> multiloggy:) pointer?
21:14:01 <flyingpenis> multiloggy, pointer?
21:14:02 <multiloggy> http://nowhere/2013-02-08#T21-14-01
21:14:14 <flyingpenis> O.O
21:14:31 * flyingpenis does not have correct hosts file entry
21:15:31 <joepie91> lol
21:15:34 <joepie91> there is no hosts file entry for it
21:15:40 <joepie91> it's just a bogus something
21:15:43 <joepie91> for testing
21:15:54 multiloggy has quit (Client exited)
21:15:54 <joepie91> multiloggy, gtfo?
21:16:08 <joepie91> :P
21:18:13 <flyingpenis> I know, but if I had the correct hosts file entry, I could view the log files of nowhere
21:18:14 <flyingpenis> :D
21:18:27 <flyingpenis> same for telnetting into mordor
21:19:59 <joepie91> lol
21:22:42 <flyingpenis> YES
21:22:51 <flyingpenis> <2 hours till friends arrive
21:23:00 * flyingpenis sprints to shop for coffee
21:26:41 <joepie91> :P
21:45:22 <joepie91> http://i.imgur.com/tPeToGg.png
21:46:46 <flyingpenis> yeah or not
21:46:58 <flyingpenis> as soon as I got my bike pumped up, it started whitewall raining
21:47:19 <flyingpenis> lol'd
21:47:42 <flyingpenis> usa has states with fewer people
21:47:44 <flyingpenis> lol
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21:49:29 <joepie91> flyingpenis: look. at. the. retweets.
21:49:32 <joepie91> the irony, I don't even
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21:54:37 <flyingpenis> lmao joepie91: the fake mothers maiden names thing: I love taking lines from books I like
21:55:20 <flyingpenis> my favorite one I ever used was "today is the day we kill the president" (which is code for come over quick and buy me a pack of cigarettes on the way over)
21:55:39 <flyingpenis> lmfao
21:57:20 <joepie91> lol
21:57:37 <wh1t3r4bb1t> ajaxify your life!'
22:00:36 orcka (orcka@orcka.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
22:02:19 <flyingpenis> lol damn
22:02:41 <flyingpenis> I like that someone who transferred almost 3500 bitcoins in one transaction threw in almost a whole bitcoin for the tx fee
22:02:53 <flyingpenis> that makes me smile
22:04:44 <joepie91> isn't that more or less standard for a transaction with many inputs?
22:04:47 <ryan> I sold
22:04:50 <ryan> 1000 bitcoins
22:04:51 <ryan> the other day
22:04:53 <ryan> now I regret this
22:04:54 <ryan> hardcore
22:05:43 <joepie91> ryan: at what rate?
22:05:52 <ryan> 20.something
22:06:09 <joepie91> ah, that's not too terribly bad
22:06:12 <ryan> yeah
22:06:20 <joepie91> like 3 months ago it was, what, 14?
22:06:27 <ryan> yep
22:06:30 <joepie91> before the reward halving
22:06:46 <joepie91> I wonder what the long-term effects of that are going to be
22:07:01 <flyingpenis> I figured it had to go up in price, seems I was right
22:07:03 <ryan> who makes bitcoins by mining anymore?
22:07:04 <joepie91> especially now with FPGAs etc starting to become more common
22:07:30 <ryan> asics!
22:07:31 <ryan> lol
22:07:33 <flyingpenis> yeah, downward pressure on price from fpgas, upward pressure every time it halves
22:07:46 <joepie91> flyingpenis: huh? wouldn't that be upward pressure?
22:07:49 <joepie91> from fpgas
22:07:49 <ryan> mining hardly affects the value at this point
22:07:55 <joepie91> seeing as the generation rate doesn't change
22:08:02 <joepie91> but it's harder as an average user to come by BTC
22:08:16 <joepie91> ryan: I don't know... I think the ability to mine does still affect it
22:08:22 <joepie91> not so much the exact numbers
22:08:41 <joepie91> as FPGAs become cheaper over time, and more people start getting them, that will likely push the rate down a bit
22:08:47 <ryan> It's starting to be rather minimal at this point
22:08:49 <joepie91> because the ability to mine efficiently returns
22:08:53 <joepie91> correct
22:09:05 <ryan> what affects bitcoins most right now is drug prices
22:09:07 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Has anyone ever experienced chrome removes "@" from address bar?
22:09:21 <joepie91> ryan: that, and forex
22:09:29 <joepie91> and various other forms of speculation ofc
22:09:34 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: how do you mean?
22:09:39 <ryan> I was doing some freelance sec job and got paid with bitcoins
22:09:46 <ryan> A+ way of tax evasion
22:09:50 <joepie91> haha
22:10:01 <ryan> I only paid about 2 euros of tax for 4000 euros
22:10:05 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I have an address with an @ and a $ in the get perameter and chrome removes these symbols
22:10:21 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: uh... you should probably url-encode those...
22:10:31 <flyingpenis> yeah @ is a special character
22:10:37 <wh1t3r4bb1t> hmmm
22:10:42 <ryan> It was like 20% fee of the service fee of exchanging them
22:10:52 <joepie91> ryan: which exchange?
22:10:55 <flyingpenis> it's only supposed to go just after the http://
22:11:01 <ryan> mtgox
22:11:04 <joepie91> ah
22:11:04 <wh1t3r4bb1t> But when I url encode them it fucks up the link
22:11:11 <ryan> there's this nice Finnish service that proxies sales trough mtgox
22:11:12 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: define "fucks up the link"...
22:11:14 <wh1t3r4bb1t> so either way im fucked
22:11:15 <ryan> you just type in your IBAN
22:11:19 <ryan> and amount of bitcoins
22:11:21 <wh1t3r4bb1t> makes the link invalid
22:11:23 <joepie91> flyingpenis: http://user:pass@domain.com/page
22:11:24 <ryan> it generates you an address to transfer to
22:11:28 <flyingpenis> yes
22:11:30 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: that doesn't give any more information
22:11:32 <ryan> and the money magically comes to you
22:11:33 <joepie91> you need to be more verbose
22:11:34 <flyingpenis> that's what I was indicating, joepie91 :)
22:11:38 <joepie91> how do you mean :invalid"
22:11:46 <joepie91> what tells you it's "invalid"
22:11:49 <joepie91> what validation doesn't it pass
22:11:49 <joepie91> etc
22:12:05 <joepie91> try to give a verbose description when you have a problem, not the bare minimum
22:12:09 <joepie91> because people are going to ask for more info anyway
22:12:10 <monod> (g2g)
22:12:11 monod has quit (User quit: Goodbye people!)
22:12:14 <joepie91> so you might as well give it straight away
22:12:23 <joepie91> ryan: interesting
22:12:24 <wh1t3r4bb1t> because the script at the other end is looking for @ and $ not the url encoded chars
22:12:26 <joepie91> is this finland-only?
22:12:42 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: the script doesn't *get* URL encoded chars..
22:12:45 <ryan> well
22:12:46 <joepie91> that's the whole point of URL encoding...
22:12:49 <ryan> IBANs should work
22:12:54 <ryan> to any EU Country
22:12:57 <ryan> https://bittiraha.fi/content/bittip%C3%B6rssi-osta-ja-myy-bitcoineja
22:13:03 <ryan> the site's in Finnish though
22:13:04 <joepie91> thanks, will have a look
22:13:08 <joepie91> I'll manage :P
22:13:24 <ryan> there's nothing that says it's Finnish only
22:13:31 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: URL encoding is something that happens in the URL only... your script will receive unencoded values
22:14:26 <ryan> I'll go on their IRC and ask them if they do transactions outside Finland
22:15:51 <joepie91> that would be great, thanks :P
22:16:02 <joepie91> (I'd imagine it *might* be a problem if they have to pay extra for SEPA transfers)
22:16:17 <ryan> maybe
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22:33:05 <ryan> rip ryan
22:33:18 <ryan> yeah joepie91 they work everywhere in europe
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22:34:17 <ryan> wonderful
22:36:15 <joepie91> really? great
22:36:17 <ryan> yep
22:36:21 <joepie91> thanks, will definitely have a go with them then
22:36:42 <ryan> yeah they take a minimal cut and saves from the hassle that mtgox is
22:36:56 <joepie91> not just hassle, I also simply don't trust it
22:36:59 <joepie91> they've lost my money once
22:37:13 <joepie91> and refused to refund it, throwing it on a "weak password" despite it being a random keepass-generated password
22:37:19 <joepie91> and it happening in the whole mt gox hacked craze
22:37:30 <ryan> yeah
22:37:51 <joepie91> so yeah
22:37:54 <ryan> their site
22:37:55 <ryan> is still on
22:37:56 <joepie91> I avoid it if I have the option
22:37:57 <ryan> shared hosting
22:37:59 <joepie91> lol
22:38:08 <joepie91> it is?
22:38:10 <ryan> its hosted on the same server as bitcointalk
22:38:13 <joepie91> haha
22:38:15 <ryan> which COINCIDENTALLY
22:38:17 <ryan> runs SMF
22:38:17 ` has quit (Ping timeout)
22:38:20 <ryan> for which
22:38:28 <ryan> an vulnerability was leaked recently
22:38:42 <joepie91> sigh... I don't think mt gox will ever learn...
22:38:48 <joepie91> I also remember when they were all "yeah we got prolexic now"
22:38:48 <ryan> yeah
22:38:53 <joepie91> and then forgot to firewall off non-prolexic IPs
22:38:56 <ryan> yeah
22:38:58 * joepie91 facepalms
22:38:59 <ryan> they still don't do this
22:39:03 <joepie91> scan kalyhost range, fucked
22:39:10 <ryan> sadly I didn't have the time to completge the exploit on bitcointalk
22:39:41 <ryan> would've sent all the bitcoins to my public wallet just to see how mad the bitcoin people get
22:40:00 <joepie91> I really don't get how they can be so careless about security..
22:40:10 <ryan> yeah
22:40:57 <joepie91> what I don't get
22:41:05 <joepie91> they run a goddamn VPS host
22:41:15 <joepie91> *why* would they host mt gox on the same box as bitcointalk
22:42:28 <ryan> does it make a difference
22:42:56 <ryan> the freebsd etc sysret exploit isn't the only problem with x86_64
22:45:49 <joepie91> ryan: I meant more in the sense of an additional physical server not being that big of a deal
22:45:52 <joepie91> unless they're really really small
22:46:13 <lady-3jane> what about freebsd
22:46:23 <joepie91> with the kind of income they have, I'd expect them to at the very least colo some stuff
22:46:47 <ryan> well yeah
22:46:47 <lady-3jane> colo should be first step
22:49:41 <lady-3jane> so sysret exploits intel hardware?
22:51:02 Chasenet has quit (User quit: )
22:52:34 <lady-3jane> huh weird
22:52:43 <lady-3jane> also not applicable cause I'm on amd hardware e.e
22:52:51 <lady-3jane> cawpheeeeee
22:53:25 * joepie91 shot an email to github
22:53:38 <joepie91> mystery to me why account overview only includes master branch commits..
22:53:58 <ryan> google is annoying
22:54:06 <ryan> they tell me government is trying to hack my email
22:54:08 <AnonForecast> Google is Evil
22:54:11 <ryan> but refuse to tell me anything else
22:54:14 <ryan> AnonForecast: yes and so is cogent
22:54:19 <ryan> and fucking everybody
22:54:23 <lady-3jane> and yet...
22:54:29 <ryan> yet you are using them and funding them
22:54:35 <lady-3jane> ^ :>
22:54:38 <AnonForecast> They work for me now
22:54:41 <AnonForecast> just wait and see
22:54:48 <lady-3jane> lol tall order
22:54:55 <AnonForecast> mhawawawawawa
22:54:58 <ryan> hypocrisy at it's best
22:55:07 * lady-3jane hopes the rain stays off
22:55:09 * lady-3jane runs
22:55:20 <AnonForecast> ?
22:55:36 <AnonForecast> btw anyone got an html propsal for oplastresort.com frontpage?
23:14:15 <lady-3jane> got it
23:14:22 <joepie91> lady-3jane: wb
23:14:28 <lady-3jane> joepie91:) <3
23:14:37 <joepie91> lady-3jane: http://owely.com/2w9lyD
23:14:39 <lady-3jane> only rained on the way there
23:14:44 <joepie91> heh
23:14:58 <lady-3jane> gaia lookin' out for me
23:15:00 <lady-3jane> lmao
23:15:32 <lady-3jane> yeah I saw that
23:15:47 <lady-3jane> their ceo made a big thing that ended up on hn about why companies should be less retarded with that stuff
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23:16:15 <lady-3jane> sup bacltocl
23:16:16 <joepie91> there's a very important lesson in there
23:16:18 <lady-3jane> backtick, even
23:16:31 <joepie91> being "stop assuming you need rules for shit, unless it becomes apparent you do"
23:16:42 <lady-3jane> yeah, if you hire good people who like your company, they self police
23:16:51 <joepie91> and that's a lesson 99% of people - even outside corporate culture - miss
23:16:57 <joepie91> it's not limited to companies though
23:17:04 <lady-3jane> yeah
23:17:06 <joepie91> there's a rule-based approach pretty much in every kind of organisation
23:17:13 <joepie91> people are not firewalls
23:17:13 <joepie91> they aren't rule-based
23:17:15 <joepie91> :|
23:17:24 <lady-3jane> I am!
23:17:31 <lady-3jane> :3
23:17:35 <joepie91> actually, I'd argue the rule problem is twofold
23:17:50 <joepie91> 1. the assumption that rules are necessary for functioning
23:18:02 <joepie91> 2. the assumption that rules will act positively - that is, people will follow them
23:18:27 <joepie91> in my experience, neither of the two usually holds true
23:19:14 <lady-3jane> I like lots of rules, but you've got to apply them right. For instance in our banking industry, most of the ceos of our banks fall in a certain belief style such that any rule is seen as divine. thus if there's no rule against it, it's perfectly cool. There is no more thought given to the action.
23:20:02 <lady-3jane> interesting bit of research we went over in my microeconomics class
23:20:04 <lady-3jane> :>
23:21:18 <lady-3jane> ahh, mud is shed
23:21:23 <lady-3jane> now time to make coffee
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23:39:59 <twitchyliquid64> The way I see it joepie91
23:40:25 <twitchyliquid64> is if you dont have rules and everyone follows principles
23:40:43 <twitchyliquid64> there will always be THAT ONE GUY who breaks principles and fucks shit up
23:40:56 <twitchyliquid64> and he is the guy that makes the rules and consequences nessesary
23:41:00 <joepie91> (and here we have the exact confirmation of what was mentioned above)
23:41:05 <twitchyliquid64> go on
23:41:14 <joepie91> <joepie91>there's a very important lesson in there
23:41:17 <joepie91> <joepie91>being "stop assuming you need rules for shit, unless it becomes apparent you do"
23:41:19 <joepie91> <joepie91>and that's a lesson 99% of people - even outside corporate culture - miss
23:41:26 <joepie91> you are perfectly fitting that model right now
23:41:33 <joepie91> you are assuming that rules are necessary for shit
23:41:37 <joepie91> without it being apparent that you do
23:41:42 <joepie91> and it can't possibly be apparent that you do
23:41:46 <joepie91> because you have no situation
23:41:54 <joepie91> conclusion: you cannot make a blanket statement about this
23:43:53 <joepie91> additionally: claims of disability require a stronger proof than claims of ability
23:43:57 <joepie91> because one is exclusive and the other is not
23:45:00 <twitchyliquid64> Im not trying to say your wrong
23:45:05 <twitchyliquid64> rather,
23:45:48 <twitchyliquid64> that your model cannot be applide universally
23:46:07 <joepie91> I would be interested in getting to know a model that does work universally
23:46:11 <joepie91> about anything, really
23:46:21 <joepie91> because to my knowledge the point of a model is that it's designed for a particular situation
23:46:27 <twitchyliquid64> joepie91: maths works :P
23:46:29 <joepie91> and usually doesn't function very well outside that situation
23:46:36 <joepie91> except not really
23:46:43 <twitchyliquid64> oh?
23:46:44 <joepie91> there are still unexplained things in mathematics
23:46:48 <twitchyliquid64> of course
23:46:50 <joepie91> where conventional maths don't seem to add up
23:46:51 <joepie91> no pun intended
23:46:54 <twitchyliquid64> still works though :P
23:47:01 <joepie91> no, it doesn't, that's why it's still unexplained
23:47:02 <joepie91> anyway
23:47:05 <joepie91> to clarify on my earlier point
23:47:11 <twitchyliquid64> it works, just not explained/proven
23:47:23 <joepie91> claim: X is possible -> proof that a person did X == sufficient proof
23:47:35 <joepie91> claim: X is impossible -> proof that a person could not do X != sufficient proof
23:47:38 <joepie91> do you see what I mean?
23:48:06 <twitchyliquid64> actually
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23:48:17 <twitchyliquid64> its easier to prove a model is invalid than to prove it is vali
23:48:19 <twitchyliquid64> *valid
23:48:30 <twitchyliquid64> for a model to be valid, it has to account for all cases
23:48:37 <twitchyliquid64> take newtons laws of motion ofr example
23:48:47 <joepie91> uh, you're confusing a few things here
23:48:47 <twitchyliquid64> but for it to be wrong, you only need to get it to not explain something
23:49:02 <joepie91> aside from any disagreements you may have
23:49:07 <joepie91> do you understand what I was trying to clarify?
23:49:20 <twitchyliquid64> (of course, occums razor applies)
23:50:00 <twitchyliquid64> yes, I just disagree
23:50:06 <joepie91> yes, that was clear to me
23:50:08 <lady-3jane> there are unexplainable (not unexplained, but proven to be not able to be explained) things in math
23:50:14 <lady-3jane> <3
23:50:21 <lady-3jane> sec for link
23:50:31 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: you are confusing "model" as in "method to do things" with "model" as in "theory to base other theories on"
23:50:41 <joepie91> the former applies to what I am saying
23:50:44 <twitchyliquid64> they are both valid definitions
23:50:45 <joepie91> the latter to what you are saying
23:50:47 <twitchyliquid64> oh
23:50:48 <twitchyliquid64> roger
23:51:04 <joepie91> what I was trying to explain is that the single datapoint that "model X did not work for person Y"
23:51:11 <joepie91> does not mean that model X is necessarily invalid
23:51:28 <joepie91> whereas the datapoint that "model X DID work for person Z"
23:51:36 <joepie91> is sufficient to conclude that it must thus be a functional model
23:51:44 <joepie91> (putting aside the required conditions for it to work)
23:51:51 <joepie91> because if it was non-functional, it couldn't have worked even once
23:52:14 <joepie91> that's what I mean when I say that a claim of impossibility requires stronger proof than a claim of possibility
23:52:17 <lady-3jane> unexplainable things in math: http://youtu.be/UPA3bwVVzGI
23:52:35 <lady-3jane> punch is at the end, but it's a very good video
23:53:25 <twitchyliquid64> ok
23:53:33 BLTGeno (BLTGeno4@cryto-590FDA9.basl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #crytocc
23:53:50 <joepie91> the claim that "model X works" is also not the same as the claim that "model X *always* works"
23:53:56 <joepie91> I'd claim the former, not the latter
23:54:03 <joepie91> in the case of the context not control thing
23:54:10 <joepie91> err, what was it called in this particular slide
23:54:11 <twitchyliquid64> well, the importance of a model can be thought as how universal it is
23:54:14 <twitchyliquid64> agree?
23:54:18 <joepie91> anyway, the non-rule thing
23:54:20 <joepie91> strongly disagree
23:54:37 <joepie91> the importance of a model is how impact-ful it can be
23:54:38 <twitchyliquid64> Reword?
23:54:43 <joepie91> that includes how universal it is
23:54:46 <joepie91> but is not limited to
23:54:51 <joepie91> there are more factors
23:54:55 <twitchyliquid64> eh, same thing, more variables
23:55:00 <joepie91> hence not same thing
23:55:00 <joepie91> :p
23:55:05 <twitchyliquid64> well
23:55:10 <twitchyliquid64> that was my vibe
23:55:14 <twitchyliquid64> im just typing fast :P
23:55:17 <joepie91> lol
23:55:20 <joepie91> fair enough
23:55:25 <joepie91> anyway
23:55:40 <joepie91> to bring my explanation to a close
23:55:40 <joepie91> because I have a lot of work to do
23:55:40 <joepie91> let me jump back to your previous statement
23:55:41 <joepie91> and my response
23:55:51 <joepie91> <twitchyliquid64>is if you dont have rules and everyone follows principles
23:55:51 <joepie91> <twitchyliquid64>there will always be THAT ONE GUY who breaks principles and fucks shit up
23:55:58 <joepie91> <joepie91><joepie91>there's a very important lesson in there
23:55:59 <joepie91> <joepie91><joepie91>being "stop assuming you need rules for shit, unless it becomes apparent you do"
23:55:59 <joepie91> <joepie91><joepie91>and that's a lesson 99% of people - even outside corporate culture - miss
23:55:59 <joepie91> <joepie91>you are perfectly fitting that model right now
23:56:02 <twitchyliquid64> http://youtu.be/UPA3bwVVzGI
23:56:05 <joepie91> see, the claim you made was this:
23:56:08 <twitchyliquid64> oops, disregard
23:56:11 <joepie91> "there will always be that one guy fucking shit up"
23:56:18 <joepie91> this could be worded, alternatively, as
23:56:21 <joepie91> "this model never works"
23:56:32 <joepie91> because there's always a factor preventing it from working
23:56:47 <joepie91> seeing as this model *does* work for a certain amount of entities (how many is up for discussion), it clearly *can* work
23:56:57 <joepie91> so the claim that "there will always be that one guy fucking shit up" must therefore be invalid
23:57:07 <joepie91> you are however operating from that assumption
23:57:19 <joepie91> thereby confiming my earlier remark about that assumptiong being used
23:57:29 <joepie91> assumption, even
23:57:35 <twitchyliquid64> ok
23:57:36 <lady-3jane> and I look at that phrase differently "Of course there will always be one guy fucking shit up. THe question is, do we need to care or not?"
23:57:41 <twitchyliquid64> I see and agree what your saying
23:57:55 <twitchyliquid64> the vibe Im trying to say is this;
23:57:58 <twitchyliquid64> why both models are valid
23:58:21 <joepie91> right, and at that point you move into an area where discussion becomes mostly useless
23:58:24 <joepie91> because...
23:58:31 <joepie91> you cannot elaborate any further on which model is more appropriate
23:58:33 <lady-3jane> you're both agreeing to agree
23:58:35 <joepie91> without having a situation to project it on
23:58:39 <lady-3jane> META
23:58:46 <joepie91> this also makes it impossible to say which of the two models is more often useful
23:58:55 <joepie91> because you can't really gather any reliable statistics right now
23:58:58 <twitchyliquid64> well, I was going to define a populus of use cases and use that as theset
23:59:01 <joepie91> in other words: dead end
23:59:05 <joepie91> for now
23:59:06 <joepie91> :p
23:59:13 <twitchyliquid64> fuck statistics, thought experiements ftw!!!
23:59:14 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: it would require more than cursory research
23:59:16 <joepie91> well yes
23:59:26 <joepie91> but thought experiments require a certain amount of (imaginary) data to work off
23:59:33 <joepie91> and when that data starts resembling your initial claim
23:59:41 <joepie91> ("this model will work better because this model more often works better")
23:59:43 <joepie91> you have a problem
23:59:44 <joepie91> :P