Cryto! 26 October 2013

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00:46:27 <Albert_Mikhah> What do you call a Mexican who can swim? A Texan.
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00:46:27 <Nicolaas_Joakim> Why doesn't Mexico have an Olympic team? Because everyone who can run, jump, and swim has already crossed the border!
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00:46:28 <Porphyrios_Uzochi> What do you call a Mexican who can swim? A Texan.
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00:46:28 <Arnaldo_Methodius> What do you call a Mexican who can swim? A Texan.
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00:46:29 <Holmgeirr_Harduwich> What do you call a Mexican with a broken lawn mower? Unemployed.
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00:46:29 <Inge_Alfie> What do you call a little Mexican? A paragraph. Because he's not quite an essay.
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01:05:56 <cayce> that wasn't even a good one, jeez
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02:18:54 <Macbeth> hai
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03:07:47 <joepie92> my god
03:07:53 <joepie92> so much fucking terrible 'journalism'
03:07:53 <joepie92>
03:07:57 <joepie92>
03:07:59 <joepie92> etc.
03:08:05 <Macbeth> .title
03:08:06 <botpie91> Macbeth: The NSA's Website Is Down
03:08:14 <Macbeth> not that one...
03:08:15 <Macbeth> 
03:08:17 <Macbeth>
03:08:18 <Macbeth> .title
03:08:18 <botpie91> Macbeth: The NSA Website Is Down - Business Insider
03:08:23 <joepie92> lol
03:08:31 <Macbeth> botpie, you're doing this on purpose
03:08:42 <Macbeth> that makes no fuckin sense
03:08:49 <joepie92> both articles are named similarly
03:08:50 <joepie92> also
03:09:01 <joepie92> interesting how the business insider site suggests reading/watching cat articles/videos
03:09:07 <joepie92> as being related to anon...
03:09:16 <Macbeth> ha ha ha
03:09:22 <joepie92> not even kidding
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03:09:23 <joepie92> :|
03:09:56 <Macbeth> joe, this is me connecting to an irc with cmd prompt/telnet
03:09:56 <Macbeth>
03:10:15 <Macbeth> i love hacking :)
03:10:31 <Macbeth> like, real hacking... Not the shit that people think hacking means
03:10:55 <joepie92> Macbeth: that's very much on the edge of what you could consider 'hacking'
03:10:56 <joepie92> :P
03:11:13 <joepie92> ;_;
03:11:16 <joepie92> ON FREENODE!
03:11:24 <Macbeth> 1) it looks awesome
03:11:34 <Macbeth> 2) i dont see the huge problem
03:11:39 <Macbeth> and I don't know that this means:
03:11:43 <Macbeth> <joepie92> Macbeth: that's very much on the edge of what you could consider 'hacking'
03:12:10 <joepie92> Macbeth: 'hacking' is a creative thing... connecting to IRC through a telnet client is very much stretching the definition of "hacking" :P
03:12:33 <Macbeth> I mean that i guessed my way through that whole thing, so it kind of is
03:12:38 <joepie92> ah, in that sense
03:12:46 <Macbeth> mhmm
03:13:05 <Macbeth> there is hacking, and there is h4x0r1ng
03:13:12 <Macbeth> I'm a hacker.
03:14:47 <Macbeth> Question: if you install windows 32 bit twice, do you get 64 bit?
03:14:49 <Macbeth> :P
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03:24:20 <tommykaine>
03:24:32 <Macbeth> .title
03:24:33 <botpie91> Macbeth: Document isn't HTML
03:24:38 <Macbeth> yes it is!!
03:24:43 <Macbeth>
03:24:44 <Macbeth> .title
03:24:45 <botpie91> Macbeth: Document isn't HTML
03:24:56 <Macbeth> ( ).( )
03:25:35 <tommykaine> lol
03:25:41 <tommykaine> that video is soo messed up
03:27:55 <Macbeth> what
03:27:56 <Macbeth> the
03:27:57 <Macbeth> fuck
03:28:11 <tommykaine> ya. Ring a ding
03:28:15 <tommykaine> best part
03:28:27 <tommykaine> :40
03:29:17 <joepie92> htttp://
03:29:18 <joepie92> .title
03:29:19 <botpie91> joepie92: Document isn't HTML
03:29:22 <joepie92> er
03:29:24 <joepie92>
03:29:25 <joepie92> .title
03:29:26 <botpie91> joepie92: Ylvis - The Fox (What Does the Fox Say?) [Official music video HD] - YouTube
03:29:28 <joepie92> SEE WORKS FINE
03:29:33 <joepie92> you just need to add http://
03:29:59 <tommykaine> i dont like http....
03:30:06 <Macbeth> fail
03:30:11 <Macbeth> For lulz:
03:30:11 <Macbeth>
03:30:54 <tommykaine> you guys know Morgan Freeman right?
03:31:16 <Macbeth> mhmm
03:32:00 <tommykaine>
03:32:05 <tommykaine> .title
03:32:06 <botpie91> tommykaine: Morgan Freeman Reads The Fox by Ylvis - YouTube
03:32:44 <Macbeth> this video is going to make me happy
03:37:13 <Macbeth> I was right
03:37:19 <Macbeth> And freeman was so disgusted with that song...
03:39:41 <Macbeth> tommykaine: Here is autotuned Morgan Freeman singing the song:
03:39:43 <Macbeth> .title
03:39:44 <botpie91> Macbeth: What Does The Freeman Say? [Morgan Freeman singing The Fox by Ylvis] - YouTube
03:55:31 <tommykaine> lol
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04:11:13 <Dkey> hi guys
04:11:13 <Dkey> hi guys
04:11:19 <tommykaine> hi
04:12:10 <tommykaine> whats up
04:15:23 <Dkey> not bad
04:15:23 <Dkey> not bad
04:15:32 <Dkey> browse happening now?
04:15:33 <Dkey> browse happening now?
04:15:45 <Macbeth> dont repeast yourself please
04:16:18 <tommykaine> Tourettes
04:16:23 <Macbeth> ?
04:16:35 <Macbeth> tommykaine did you see my gif?
04:16:40 <tommykaine> no
04:16:49 <Macbeth>
04:16:53 <Macbeth> not that
04:17:05 <Macbeth> here:
04:17:06 <Macbeth> .title
04:17:07 <botpie91> Macbeth: Image Hosting < - 20Mb Free Gif Image Hosting
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04:18:08 <Macbeth> what do you think?
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04:20:06 <joepie92> Macbeth: you didn't link to the gif
04:20:37 <tommykaine> LOL i was waiting for it
04:21:01 <Macbeth> oh
04:21:13 <Macbeth> i didn't press enter...
04:22:01 <Macbeth>
04:22:03 <Macbeth> there
04:24:10 <tommykaine> what in the balls hell
04:25:18 <Dkey> <Macbeth> dont repeast yourself please (C)
04:25:19 <Dkey> <Macbeth> dont repeast yourself please (C)
04:25:22 <Dkey> sorry
04:25:23 <Dkey> sorry
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04:58:46 <tommykaine> god i been trying to figure out where that song originated from with some of the sounds  they were using, found it!
04:58:46 <tommykaine>
04:58:56 <joepie92> tommykaine: that's not the original
04:59:07 <joepie92> popcorn song has been around -forever-
04:59:39 <tommykaine> the ring a ding thing
04:59:55 <tommykaine> ooo i know lol i remmeber that when it came out
05:00:35 <tommykaine> you know the ring a ding ding thing
05:03:12 <joepie92> ring a ding ding is crazy frog, yes
05:03:14 <joepie92> and it's annoying as fuck
05:03:16 <joepie92> :P
05:09:36 <tommykaine> no lol bsest
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07:15:16 <joepie92> .title
07:15:17 <botpie91> joepie92: Reference for previous versions · Issue #2260 · FortAwesome/Font-Awesome · GitHub
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14:53:01 <lelelelelelelelele> wheres vld when you need him
14:56:35 <cayce> lelelelelelelelele:) your nick:
14:56:48 <lelelelelelelelele> lolol
14:59:32 <vld> I'm hidden
15:02:30 <vld> but here!
15:11:55 <lelelelelelelelele> lol
15:12:04 <lelelelelelelelele> vld dis company == evil
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16:53:51 <iceTwy> hola
16:56:52 <lelelelelelelelele> hola ugly
16:56:53 <lelelelelelelelele> </3
17:06:13 <iceTwy> watch this
17:06:18 <iceTwy>
17:06:27 <iceTwy> livestream of the mass protest in DC against mass surveillance
17:07:40 <lelelelelelelelele> did u see was under ddos
17:07:41 <lelelelelelelelele> #legit
17:21:38 <tommykaine> wow
17:23:07 <tommykaine> wonder whos ddosing nsa
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17:23:39 <tommykaine> JOEPIE!
17:23:50 <tommykaine> World is under attack hide your kids
17:43:51 <iceTwy> cc joepie92
17:45:17 <joepie92> iceTwy: how big is it?
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18:07:30 <iceTwy> joepie92: afaik, pretty big
18:07:48 <joepie92> good :P
18:07:50 <iceTwy> I have no exact numbers but from what is said on Twitter, it appears to be a pretty massive protest
18:11:08 <iceTwy> also BTC seems to be calming down for now
18:11:16 <iceTwy> pretty stable, it's staying at around $200
18:11:18 <iceTwy> (MtGox BTC that is)
18:13:22 <joepie92> .bitcoin
18:13:22 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $179.71, 1 BTC = €138.07
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19:41:53 <KorgLaka_> Yay! I get to work on socialflood today. No science!
20:12:32 <KorgLaka_> Parts of the HTML are still rendering in the wrong places... Has to be a </div> out of place. Is there a tool that will find the error in my html quickly?
20:12:50 <KorgLaka_> cc joepie92
20:13:28 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: w3c validator
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20:27:22 <KorgLaka_> joepie92 I'm using that but it's saying all sorts of stuff about the doctype declaration and such because the page is really out of order.
20:27:51 <KorgLaka_> 90% of the html is outside the html tags for some reason
20:27:59 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: go fix that first then
20:28:00 <joepie92> :)
20:28:06 <joepie92> just fix all the issues it points out
20:28:09 <joepie92> and your issues will vanish
20:29:21 <KorgLaka_> I'll paste you a copy of the rendered source and you will be like holey crap. Because it looks ok other than the order. And the php is putting it in the correct order because I have triple checked the php.
20:31:58 <KorgLaka_>
20:32:47 <joepie92> line 72-73
20:32:49 <joepie92> missing </div>
20:33:09 <joepie92> line 182-184, incorrect indentation
20:33:15 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: go fix the validator errors first
20:37:26 <KorgLaka_> That's not missing a </div> it looks like it due to tab size differences. This is why I am pulling my hair out.
20:38:53 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: I'm not sure how many more times I have to say this before you actually go do it
20:40:23 <staticsafe> lol
20:41:02 <KorgLaka_> The errors are false due to the page order being fucked up on render.
20:42:49 <KorgLaka_> I took the page and reordered it the correct way and green fucking light.
20:43:21 <KorgLaka_> But when the browser does it it fucks it up. Fuck chrome
20:44:18 <KorgLaka_> Line 154, Column 69: cannot generate system identifier for general entity "nbsp"
20:44:18 <KorgLaka_>                                     <div class="progress-extended">&nbsp;</div>
20:44:26 <KorgLaka_> Lies
20:44:40 <KorgLaka_> See how the fuck is &nbsp; a fucking error?
20:44:49 <KorgLaka_> It's not.
20:45:21 * KorgLaka_ picks up pistol
20:45:43 * KorgLaka_ points pistol at chrome logo
20:45:59 * joepie92 sighs
20:46:02 <joepie92> KorgLaka_
20:46:10 <joepie92> if the W3C validator tells you that you are doing something wrong
20:46:13 <joepie92> then you are doing something wrong
20:46:27 <joepie92> stop telling me that it's "erroneous"
20:46:38 <KorgLaka_> Chrome is eronious
20:46:47 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: seeing as you're stuck on something you're CLEARLY not in a position to determine what is a real error and what isn't
20:46:56 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: go pastebin the rendered source, as you input it into the validator
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20:48:13 <joepie92> goddamnit keybindings
20:48:24 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: but seriously, stop trying to 'outsmart' the tools you're using
20:48:50 <joepie92> that you're stuck on seemingly impossible problems, is pretty good evidence that your approach isn't working
20:51:51 <KorgLaka_> This project is just too fucking big for one mid level programmer to handle and keep sanity. Let me rebuild the fucking page again manually. Sonofabitch.
20:52:17 <joepie92> kong
20:52:19 <joepie92> er
20:52:20 <joepie92> KorgLaka_ *
20:52:21 <joepie92> Pastebin
20:52:23 <joepie92> rendered source
20:52:24 <joepie92> now
20:52:27 <joepie92> stop trying shit
20:52:28 <joepie92> stop fucking around
20:52:34 <joepie92> give me a pastebin of the RENDERED source
20:52:37 <joepie92> within 2 minutes
20:52:39 <KorgLaka_> Also I agree with you joepie92 I'm fucking up major somewhere and failing epic to see where.
20:52:50 <joepie92> I don't have the time to hang around waiting for you to try millions of things that won't work
20:52:54 <joepie92> having to wait myself for god knows how long
20:52:59 <KorgLaka_> 13:31 KorgLaka_:
20:52:59 <joepie92> before I get any kind of useful response
20:53:05 <KorgLaka_> I pasted that ages ago lol
20:53:09 <joepie92> I want rendered full page source
20:53:17 <joepie92> that is a template
20:53:25 <joepie92> oh god
20:53:30 <joepie92> you are doing client-side templating?
20:53:36 <KorgLaka_> No
20:53:43 <joepie92> <script id="template-upload" type="text/x-tmpl">
20:53:48 <KorgLaka_> blueimp is
20:53:51 <joepie92> wat
20:53:53 <joepie92> ugh
20:53:54 <joepie92> regardlesws
20:53:57 <joepie92> regardless *
20:53:57 <KorgLaka_> that shit is his atrocity
20:54:00 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: I want full page source
20:54:02 <joepie92> not a part of it
20:54:08 <KorgLaka_> Thats ip I swesrt
20:54:12 <KorgLaka_> swear
20:54:14 <joepie92> wat
20:54:18 <joepie92> is this your actual page source?
20:54:32 <joepie92> how exactly did you expect this to do anything?
20:54:33 <KorgLaka_> YEs as rendered by chrome
20:54:39 <joepie92> wat?
20:54:43 <joepie92> jesus christ
20:54:44 <joepie92> KorgLaka_
20:54:46 <joepie92> VIEW SOURCE BUTTON
20:54:47 <KorgLaka_> Look
20:54:52 <KorgLaka_> Yes
20:54:52 <joepie92> I don't need "as rendered by X"
20:54:55 <KorgLaka_> Did that
20:54:56 <joepie92> I want the actual goddamn output
20:54:57 <joepie92> good
20:54:59 <KorgLaka_> copy pastsa
20:55:01 <joepie92> then this is how your application shits it out
20:55:05 <joepie92> not "how chrome renders it"
20:55:11 <joepie92> so stop bitching and fix your application
20:55:14 <joepie92> because this is a fucking mess
20:55:33 <joepie92> for starters, have the body actually be in the <body>
20:55:34 <KorgLaka_> Ok please calm and let me explain
20:59:05 <KorgLaka_> I am trying now to "capture" the application's output without the browser rendering the html so I can compare that to the code from "view source".
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20:59:32 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: I feel like you don't understand the tools you are using
20:59:38 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: view source DOESN'T render or parse anything
20:59:47 <joepie92> it is literally a blob of text as it is shit out by your webserver
20:59:49 <joepie92> with syntax highlighting
20:59:51 <joepie92> unmodified
21:00:03 <KorgLaka_> Because if I echo the html "parts" with double quoted around them they are in the right order but not rendered
21:00:11 <joepie92> hai Zekka, welcome to #crytocc, please be aware that this is a publicly logged channel and make sure to read the channel rules in the topic etc. etc. etc.
21:00:15 <KorgLaka_> Hold on let me try this again fuck.
21:00:20 <joepie92> loggy, pointer?
21:00:20 <loggy>
21:00:42 <joepie92> KorgLaka_; I don't understand why we are discussing this still
21:00:51 <joepie92> you should be fixing your shit to have the page contents in the <body>
21:00:57 <joepie92> before even CONSIDERING looking at anything else
21:00:59 <KorgLaka_> Shush
21:01:02 <joepie92> no, not shush
21:01:07 <Zekka> joepie92 - I'll be checking out the rules in a sec, thank you for mentioing
21:01:15 <KorgLaka_> I'm working on it
21:01:16 <joepie92> you're trying to find bacteria in a pile of steaming shit
21:01:18 <joepie92> it's pointless
21:01:26 <KorgLaka_> EXACTLY!
21:01:30 <joepie92> the problems with this are -everywhere-
21:01:34 <Zekka> (Are the rules in the topic all of the rules?)
21:01:35 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: so make it not be a pile of steaming shit
21:01:38 <joepie92> Zekka: yes
21:01:47 <KorgLaka_> Lol
21:02:00 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: I mean, for fucks sake, how is it even POSSIBLE that your page contents are output -before- the doctype declaration?
21:02:04 <joepie92> what makes it do that?
21:02:05 <joepie92> go fix it
21:02:28 <KorgLaka_> Lol, in the php it doesn't do that
21:02:35 <joepie92> ............................................
21:02:37 <KorgLaka_> That's why I'm trippin
21:02:40 <joepie92> KorgLaka_
21:02:50 <joepie92> I have no idea what kind of completely retarded templating mechanism you're using
21:02:54 <joepie92> but it's clearly not working
21:03:07 <joepie92> so either fix your stuff or use a sane templater
21:03:08 <Zekka> It looks to me like clientside templating
21:03:10 <KorgLaka_> Ok I have idea
21:03:15 <joepie92> Zekka: no, that's just the upload thing
21:03:20 <joepie92> scroll down to the very end
21:03:29 <joepie92> line 302
21:03:33 <KorgLaka_> I save the output to file before it sends to the browser
21:03:42 <KorgLaka_> Brb
21:03:47 <joepie92> what
21:03:48 <joepie92> ...
21:03:49 <joepie92> KorgLaka_
21:03:52 <joepie92> ........
21:03:53 <Zekka> joepie92 - How things like that even happen I have no idea
21:04:01 <Zekka> Is he concatenating multiple pages?
21:04:02 <KorgLaka_> I want to see what the fuck
21:04:03 <joepie92> KorgLaka_: stop saving shit to different places
21:04:05 <joepie92> IT
21:04:07 <joepie92> WON;'T
21:04:07 <joepie92> CHANGE
21:04:09 <joepie92> ANYTHING
21:04:15 <joepie92> it is still the same goddamn output
21:04:39 <joepie92> KorgLaka_; you've been bitching about this for what, a week now? in here
21:04:45 <joepie92> you still haven't provided full code
21:04:53 <joepie92> you still haven't even consider other approaches, it seems
21:04:55 <Zekka> It looks like he's concatenating a semi-reasonable page body onto a large collection of page elements
21:05:42 <joepie92> KorgLaka_; the reason you're not finding the issue is because A. you're making stupid assumptions without researching them (such as 'the view source page is how it's rendered by Chrome) and B. you're too stubborn to actually listen to other people properly
21:05:47 <Zekka> 90% of that dump should be between lines 330 and 332, no?
21:05:55 <joepie92> Zekka: yes.
21:06:12 <joepie92> and KorgLaka_, no, the W3C validator errors are not 'erroneous'
21:06:17 <joepie92> they're completely accurate
21:06:23 <joepie92> because your code _is_ a complete invalid mess
21:06:40 <joepie92> there is absolutely no way you can expect a browser to render this sanely
21:06:43 <joepie92> at all
21:06:52 <Zekka> The only way I can see you getting code 'as rendered by chrome' is if you're using the developer tools which IIRC attempt to interpret invalid pages
21:06:55 <joepie92> (the XHTML doctype makes it even more ironic)
21:06:55 <Zekka> (this is certainly an invalid page)
21:07:10 <joepie92> Zekka: yes, but this originates from view-source:
21:07:11 <Zekka> And no browser would transform your code into this in attempting to make it valid.
21:07:17 <joepie92> exactly
21:07:44 <Zekka> The best possible output I can imagine getting would be the elements before the doctype tag prepended to the wrapper div
21:07:55 <joepie92> tl;dr KorgLaka_; your problem is NOT with chrome, it is NOT with the w3c validator, it is a problem with your code, and we cannot figure it out until you share THE ENTIRE CODE THAT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PRODUCTING THIS.
21:07:59 <joepie92> that is about as clear as I can put it
21:08:02 <joepie92> without becoming offensive
21:08:07 <joepie92> PRODUCING*
21:08:58 <Zekka> I'm surprised the kind of person who would generate that code even cares about W3C validation
21:09:21 <KorgLaka_> Ok
21:11:08 macbeth (Macbeth@Macbeth.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
21:11:12 <macbeth> Hai
21:11:47 <joepie92> hai..
21:11:54 <macbeth> ?
21:13:57 <joepie92> macbeth: slightly frustrated, see:
21:13:59 <joepie92> loggy, pointer?
21:13:59 <loggy>
21:15:25 <Zekka> KorgLaka_ - So can you describe what the code looks like that generates that page?
21:16:18 macbeth has quit (Ping timeout)
21:16:53 <KorgLaka_> I will git this in a minute. Way too many pages involved in this output.
21:17:00 <KorgLaka_> files rather
21:17:14 <Zekka> Yeah, sorry if it's inconvenient for you but something funny is definitely going on here
21:17:23 <KorgLaka_> Give me some time to update the repo.
21:17:31 <Zekka> and that's probably going to be the best way to figure out what it is
21:17:51 <KorgLaka_> I know
21:21:25 <Zekka> I'll be back in a moment: I needed to modify some settings of my IRC client
21:21:31 Zekka has quit (User quit:  leaving)
21:21:35 Zekka (zekka@Zekka.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
21:21:52 <KorgLaka_> This is embarrassing... Somewhere I am outputting stuff when it should not be output.
21:22:42 <Zekka> That'd be consistent with the output you posted earlier
21:22:46 <KorgLaka_> This is why I wanted to save the output as a file before it rendered.
21:22:58 <Zekka> Can you clarify why you need to do that?
21:23:13 macbeth ( has joined #crytocc
21:23:16 <macbeth> Oi
21:23:37 <macbeth> O'm here with Debian on an old WinXP PC
21:23:40 <macbeth> So cool
21:23:58 <macbeth> I'm gonna uinstall it over an old win95 someday soon
21:24:34 <joepie92> rough guess: echo instead of return
21:24:38 <KorgLaka_> So I can see the page the way it is being output not the way it is in view source and they are actually different. Not much but slightly.
21:25:10 <KorgLaka_> Yes somewhere it is echoing when it should be returning. I think*
21:25:16 <joepie92> macbeth: might also want to look at puppy linux
21:26:23 <macbeth> thts what you use?
21:26:24 <Zekka> Can you diff the view source output against the echoed output? There should be no difference at all.
21:26:58 <Zekka> I'm not saying there is none, but if there is any it's a bug
21:26:58 <joepie92> macbeth: I used it for an old laptop at some point
21:27:30 <Zekka> Hold up, will be vanishing and returning again
21:27:31 Zekka has quit (User quit:  leaving)
21:28:00 <macbeth> yeah, alight.
21:28:12 <iceTwy> lol @ codecademy.
21:28:16 <macbeth> looks user friendly. nice ui, and i already have debian on this cd so
21:28:19 <joepie92> iceTwy: ?
21:28:21 <macbeth> if u recomend it ill use tht
21:28:23 <iceTwy> giving you an ever so "basic" course on JS
21:28:33 <iceTwy> then offers you courses on APIs
21:28:42 <macbeth> meh, it gets a little harder. not that basic, but they could go deeper
21:28:44 <joepie92> macbeth: not a fan of default puppy linux UI/UX (unless they changed it..) but it's extremely light-weight
21:28:48 <iceTwy> > uses a shitload of things not studied in the course
21:28:56 <joepie92> iceTwy: heh
21:29:03 <iceTwy> dey funny
21:29:05 <macbeth> i do like the youtube thing though on codecademy, icetwy
21:29:14 <macbeth> ice, your name means "nice try" right?
21:29:23 <iceTwy> no? it does not mean anything
21:29:27 <macbeth> Oh
21:29:49 <macbeth> if you say it it sounds like someone with a speech problem is saying nice try
21:29:56 <macbeth> ice twy, fwiend
21:29:58 Zekka ( has joined #crytocc
21:29:59 <macbeth> :P
21:30:35 <iceTwy> haha
21:30:36 <joepie92> wb Zekka
21:30:41 <Zekka> Hey.
21:30:52 <Zekka> Sorry to keep popping in and out, currently configuring my client to default to SSL in more places
21:31:26 <Zekka> it's a little rickety so I'm retesting it in a few places to make sure startup autoconnect is behaving
21:32:16 <joepie92> mmm
21:33:24 <iceTwy> joepie92: ah, there. they don't explain DOM in their JS course
21:33:29 <iceTwy> that only comes in the jQuery course
21:33:35 <iceTwy> so onto the jQuery course I go ;p
21:33:41 <macbeth> well, thats alright, right?
21:33:53 <joepie92> iceTwy: wat.
21:33:53 <macbeth> I guess it belongs in jQuery
21:33:56 <joepie92> no
21:33:58 <joepie92> no it doesn't
21:34:04 <Zekka> For the purposes of js in the browser, isn't that like failing to teach basic verbs?
21:34:06 <joepie92> wow, that is actually really bad
21:34:09 <Zekka> in a language class*
21:34:21 <joepie92> iceTwy: DOM should -absolutely- be taught in a basic JS class
21:34:22 <Zekka> I'd understand if the class was on Node or something.
21:34:23 <macbeth> I really like the debian browser
21:34:39 <macbeth> very small header, the tabs and navbar are out of the way, and there is room for pages
21:34:48 <iceTwy> joepie92: well check out the Codecademy JS course
21:34:50 <iceTwy> :/
21:34:55 <joepie92> iceTwy: I'd rather not
21:35:01 * joepie92 already speaks JS
21:35:05 <macbeth> also, the taskbar (idk what they call it in linux) is pretty sweet looking to.
21:35:09 <iceTwy> well lemme screenshot the course plan
21:35:12 <joepie92> taskbar, yes
21:35:13 <Zekka> I've occasionally recommended codecademy to people
21:35:16 <Zekka> likely I should stop doing that
21:35:18 <macbeth> I learned all I know from codecademy. they are awesome.
21:35:21 <macbeth> I learned all I know from codecademy. they are awesome.
21:35:28 * joepie92 sighs
21:35:33 <macbeth> im trying to set aside some time to learn python
21:35:35 <joepie92> my primary issues with codecademy:
21:35:38 <macbeth> but ive got too much to do
21:35:40 <joepie92> 1. proprietary
21:35:41 <Zekka> If you've had good experiences I'm not going to hold that against you but from the sound of it they're making a lot of glaring omissions
21:35:42 <macbeth> oh, here we go
21:35:59 <joepie92> 2. problems like the above omission of DOM in JS class, basically only catering to the 'popular' approach
21:36:00 <Zekka> (I've also got a feeling they don't care about theory or the real details of what you do)
21:36:02 <macbeth> joe: does it matter if its closed source? just view source...
21:36:15 <Zekka> macbeth - The client-side source doesn't tell the full story
21:36:21 <macbeth> true
21:36:23 <joepie92> macbeth: yes, it does, and you will notice that I said 'proprietary' and not 'closed source'
21:36:30 <Zekka> They've likely got a pretty interesting backend on the server side that we can't see.
21:36:31 <macbeth> mhm
21:36:32 <joepie92> whether you can view source is completely irrelevant
21:36:33 <macbeth> my bad
21:36:36 <joepie92> even if you COULD see all source
21:36:41 <joepie92> that still means nothing
21:36:49 <macbeth> php sorta scares me
21:37:05 <macbeth> u guys hear the story of my and my mate using php to steal cookies?
21:37:23 <macbeth> we set up a webserver for a script on it, stole a cookie from our friend and loged into his website
21:37:24 <Zekka> What's scary about PHP?
21:37:27 <macbeth> u guys hear the story of my and my mate using php to steal cookies?
21:37:29 <macbeth> we set up a webserver for a script on it, stole a cookie from our friend and loged into his website
21:37:32 <macbeth> tht
21:37:33 <joepie92> macbeth: the reason this is a problem is because it means they have full control over their educational materials (and can make it inaccessible and prevent others from sharing it at any time), and it kills off any possibility of collaboration on improving it
21:37:44 <joepie92> also, macbeth, that has 0 to do with PHP
21:37:51 <macbeth> ...
21:37:56 <macbeth> we coded it in php
21:38:03 <joepie92> it still has 0 to do with PHP
21:38:05 <Zekka> That's got more to do with 'I wrote serverside code'
21:38:23 <Zekka> 'I made an HTTP server say mean things'
21:38:43 <iceTwy> joepie92:
21:38:46 <macbeth> btw, ilikeapricot added my contact req on pidgin to day
21:38:58 <Zekka> I guess what really scares me about PHP is that its devs promote poor practices, it's poorly written, historically insecure, and a lot of the people who use it don't understand basic development practices
21:39:04 <iceTwy> joepie92: no DOM here, at all
21:39:05 <Zekka> it is not an environment where good code is usually written
21:39:26 <macbeth> i guess
21:39:40 <joepie92> iceTwy... summarize to me in two sentences or less what "prototypical inheritance" means and how it relates to JS
21:39:57 <Zekka> (We get to another problem Codecademy has.)
21:40:05 <joepie92> if you are unable to answer that question accurately, then Codecademy is absolute shit
21:40:16 <Zekka> Actually, can we point macbeth to that question? He says he learned all he knows from it.
21:40:21 <joepie92> as this is the exact kind of thing it is SUPPOSED to teach
21:40:26 <joepie92> and likely doesn'y
21:40:29 <joepie92> doesn't *
21:40:32 <joepie92> Zekka: I don't mind
21:40:32 <macbeth> sorry, what was the question
21:40:38 <joepie92> macbeth: <joepie92>iceTwy... summarize to me in two sentences or less what "prototypical inheritance" means and how it relates to JS
21:41:09 <joepie92> you're not allowed to google
21:41:17 <joepie92> just explain from what you know
21:41:22 <iceTwy> joepie92: well. prototypical inheritance is the inheritance, by an object/class, of properties/methods of other objects/classes
21:41:33 <macbeth> ill be hoest; when i have a problem, i google. i learned loads from google.
21:41:38 <macbeth> cc just started me off
21:41:40 <Zekka> That's kind of a murky approximation
21:41:41 <joepie92> iceTwy: wrong
21:41:45 <joepie92> javascript doesn't have classes
21:41:49 <iceTwy> yes
21:41:51 <iceTwy> that I know
21:41:53 <iceTwy> but
21:41:55 <iceTwy> BUT
21:42:03 <iceTwy> they refer to object constructors as classes in the Codecademy course
21:42:05 <iceTwy> !
21:42:10 <joepie92> iceTwy: hence Codecademy is absolute shit
21:42:12 <macbeth> yeah, so it isnt totally correct to say that i learned  'everything' from there bc stackoverflow and sites like tht helped me too
21:42:13 <iceTwy> yes
21:42:14 <joepie92> because that is not AT ALL the same thing
21:42:15 <Zekka> That doesn't really speak to Codecademy's favor.
21:42:18 <iceTwy> what the fuck am I doing on Codecademy
21:42:30 <iceTwy> well at least it still teaches /some/ basics
21:42:33 <macbeth> its the biggest site, rly
21:42:37 <joepie92> iceTwy: as does w3schools
21:42:41 <joepie92> macbeth: no, w3schools is
21:42:42 <macbeth> one of the most interacive
21:42:44 * iceTwy grins @ w3schools
21:42:45 <Zekka> The reason I've recommended it in the past is because it's hands-on and user-friendly
21:42:57 <Zekka> I didn't realize it was that bad
21:43:08 <iceTwy> uhm
21:43:10 <joepie92> macbeth: and this is a perfect example of why it is a problem that codecademy is proprietary
21:43:12 <macbeth> w3 supportes propriatry and closed source software
21:43:18 <iceTwy> quote from the jQuery course on Codecademy:
21:43:22 <joepie92> macbeth: what?
21:43:26 <iceTwy> "jQuery is a library, or set of helpful add-ons, to the JavaScript programming language. It may seem counterintuitive to learn how to use a library before learning the actual language, but there are a few good reasons for this."
21:43:28 <macbeth> ill link u
21:43:35 <iceTwy> "It may seem counterintuitive to learn how to use a library before learning the actual language, but there are a few good reasons for this."
21:43:39 <iceTwy> ^ uwot
21:43:51 <iceTwy> wouldn't you learn JS before learning jQuery
21:43:56 <iceTwy> which is a JS lib,
21:43:58 <iceTwy> lol
21:44:03 <joepie92> macbeth: first of all, to finish what I said; Codecademy is bad because _noone can actually fix these problems with their courses_
21:44:05 <Zekka> I usually think of jQuery as a stdlib extension, so yes.
21:44:05 <joepie92> you can't fork/reuse it
21:44:07 <joepie92> you can't change it
21:44:08 <joepie92> etc.
21:44:17 <joepie92> iceTwy: learning jQuery before JS is a terrible idea
21:44:35 <macbeth> i think so 2
21:44:50 <iceTwy> joepie92: my fucking god
21:44:52 <iceTwy> please laugh
21:44:58 <iceTwy> I hadn't read below what I've just quoted
21:45:00 <iceTwy> but
21:45:02 <iceTwy> here's the full excerpt
21:45:18 <macbeth> im listening
21:45:19 <iceTwy>
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21:46:01 <joepie92> [...] and it's trickier to manipulate DOM elements directly with JavaScript than with jQuery. In order to help you build awesome websites faster [...]
21:46:02 <macbeth> "easier for many users to learn jQuery first, then dive into the nitty-gritty JavaScript details later" DA FUK
21:46:05 <macbeth> "easier for many users to learn jQuery first, then dive into the nitty-gritty JavaScript details later" DA FUK
21:46:06 <iceTwy>
21:46:09 <joepie92> no
21:46:11 <joepie92> this is the key sentence
21:46:12 <joepie92> [...] and it's trickier to manipulate DOM elements directly with JavaScript than with jQuery. In order to help you build awesome websites faster [...]
21:46:13 <joepie92> [...] and it's trickier to manipulate DOM elements directly with JavaScript than with jQuery. In order to help you build awesome websites faster [...]
21:46:13 <joepie92> [...] and it's trickier to manipulate DOM elements directly with JavaScript than with jQuery. In order to help you build awesome websites faster [...]
21:46:19 <joepie92> you know why PHP is such a fucking mess?
21:46:22 <joepie92> because of THIS EXACT REASON
21:46:28 <joepie92> this exact attitude
21:46:43 <macbeth> why dont u say something to the ceo of the site?
21:46:53 <joepie92> "who cares about the details, we want to make websites!"
21:46:57 <joepie92> macbeth: and then what?
21:46:57 <iceTwy> ^^^
21:47:01 <iceTwy> I hate this too, joepie92
21:47:12 <iceTwy> Codecademy tries to make things simple, so be it.
21:47:18 <Zekka> You know what I'd like? If Javascript and the DOM were well-designed and its flaws didn't need to be hidden by APIs
21:47:20 <iceTwy> but it should stop there and not /rush/ things
21:47:31 <joepie92> trying to make things simple is good - but at the cost of understanding it well, isn't
21:47:44 <joepie92> Zekka: the DOM is actually mostly fine
21:47:44 <Zekka> Personally I think it would be much simpler to teach programming to people who understood the underlying concepts
21:47:45 <iceTwy> it's not that much at the cost of understanding it well
21:47:48 <joepie92> just the JS API is horrible
21:47:52 <joepie92> iceTwy: it is
21:47:53 <iceTwy> Codecademy's goal is to teach simply and quickly
21:47:56 <iceTwy> unfortunately
21:48:07 <iceTwy> the "quick" aspect makes things horrible in their course
21:48:10 <joepie92> iceTwy: it is -absolutely- at the code of understanding it well
21:48:12 <joepie92> cost *
21:48:15 <Zekka> joepie92 - The verbosity is killer in a way that's easily illuminated when you compare it to jquery
21:48:21 <iceTwy> oh, yes, joepie92
21:48:27 <joepie92> Zekka: that, and strange naming
21:48:31 <Zekka> er, I should have clarified that I meant the DOM API
21:48:45 <Zekka> not that I really like HTML/XML/related standards all that much for representing text
21:48:49 <joepie92> Zekka; example, how does it make sense to have Array.push instead of Array.append, Array.add, or something more intuitive?
21:48:55 <joepie92> the naming is just bad
21:49:13 <joepie92> but also stuff like checking for substrings
21:49:29 <joepie92> if(full_string.indexOf(sub_string) !== -1)
21:49:33 <joepie92> I mean, wtf, this isn't fucking C
21:49:52 <joepie92> or how there is no function to remove an array element by value
21:50:00 <Zekka> I guess my problems with the idea of "we'll make it simpler by not explaining it" is that instead of teaching a logical extension of concepts, you're teaching a whole new category of exceptions
21:50:23 <Zekka> If people don't understand the underlying design they can't make the pieces fit together mentally
21:50:36 <macbeth> "The Cryto Forums are temporarily unavailable. "
21:50:38 <macbeth> ?
21:51:10 joepie93 (joepie91@CBC0E551.AF4B16D6.6AAD497F.IP) has joined #crytocc
21:51:26 <macbeth> "The Cryto Forums are temporarily unavailable. "
21:51:28 <macbeth> ?
21:51:36 <Zekka> I feel like if you've got a language constructed on a bunch of simple and rational rules, the very best thing you can do is explain those rules
21:51:53 <joepie93> godfuckingdamnit
21:52:00 <joepie93> VPN died
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>Zekka; example, how does it make sense to have Array.push instead of Array.append, Array.add, or something more intuitive?
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>the naming is just bad
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>but also stuff like checking for substrings
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>if(full_string.indexOf(sub_string) !== -1)
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>I mean, wtf, this isn't fucking C
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>or how there is no function to remove an array element by value
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>and there are two very verbose approaches
21:52:02 <joepie93> <joepie92>one is only good for single removals, the other is only good for mass-removals
21:52:04 <Zekka> (Granted, if your language isn't simple, rational, or small, that won't help)
21:52:05 joepie91 ( has joined #crytocc
21:52:08 <joepie93> loggy, pointer?
21:52:08 <loggy>
21:52:09 <joepie93> wat
21:52:16 <joepie91> ?
21:52:25 <joepie93> joepie91: stop stealing my nickname
21:52:39 <joepie91> hmm?
21:52:47 <joepie91> what are u talking about
21:52:49 <joepie91> get out
21:52:52 joepie92 has quit (Ping timeout)
21:52:54 joepie91 has quit (Killed (joepie93 (go away)))
21:52:57 *** joepie93 is now known as joepie91
21:52:58 <joepie91> wtf.\]
21:53:00 <joepie91> wtf. *
21:53:33 <joepie91> 21:50:23 <Zekka> If people don't understand the underlying design they can't make the pieces fit together mentally
21:53:34 trolool ( has joined #crytocc
21:53:35 <joepie91> exactly my problem
21:53:39 trolool has quit (User quit:  trolool)
21:53:43 <joepie91> macbeth: forums are down, will be down for some time
21:54:01 <macbeth> mkay
21:54:05 <Zekka> Javascript, despite the strange and stupid things it periodically likes to do, really isn't all that complicated
21:54:19 <joepie91> Zekka: it isn't; it just has an awful API
21:54:49 <Zekka> I'd be more comfortable explaining Javascript to strangers than I'd be explaining Ruby or Python
21:55:01 <Zekka> and those much more than explaining C or something
21:55:53 x ( has joined #crytocc
21:57:02 <macbeth> hey x
21:57:08 <iceTwy> oh I'd be MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH more comfortable explaining Python
21:57:10 <iceTwy> Python <3
21:57:12 <iceTwy> <3
21:57:14 <iceTwy> <3
21:57:22 <macbeth> where did u learn python?
21:57:30 <Zekka> Python's type system is actually kind of complicated and its scoping rules aren't as straightforward as Javascript's
21:57:31 <iceTwy> Think Like a Computer Scientist
21:57:31 <joepie91> macbeth: why did you steal my nick
21:57:33 <iceTwy> cc macbeth
21:57:36 <macbeth> after hearing this sh!t on cc, i need a new palce to leard
21:57:51 <macbeth> joe, i was curious of the outcome
21:58:09 <macbeth> i knew it wouldnt go tht far but i was wondering what the cource of action would be
21:58:19 <iceTwy> macbeth:
21:58:21 <iceTwy> .title
21:58:21 <botpie91> iceTwy: How to Think Like a Computer Scientist — How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python 2nd Edition documentation
21:58:23 <iceTwy> ^ AMAZING book
21:58:29 <joepie91> macbeth: I'm not sure what you expected besides "/kill"
21:58:30 <iceTwy> complete, very complete.
21:58:45 <macbeth> alright, ill read tht, thank you ice
21:58:45 <Zekka> Javascript's scoping rules are very consistent (although this-binding is a little weird), Python's are consistent except in class definitions, and Ruby's are a little alien
21:59:12 <Zekka> Javascript's system of inheritance probably makes the most intuitive sense to me out of the languages I know
21:59:16 <iceTwy> macbeth: it's actually a very complete course
21:59:33 <iceTwy> macbeth: with exercises at the end of every section (like 5-6 small or big exercises, depending on the section)
21:59:46 <iceTwy> I really, really, really recommend it
21:59:48 <iceTwy> BUT
22:00:01 <macbeth> ?
22:00:16 <joepie91> Zekka: the JS inheritance system makes sense if you unlearn what you know about classical inheritance first
22:00:16 <joepie91> heh
22:00:20 <iceTwy> I never went past chapter 9
22:00:29 <macbeth> ( ).( )
22:00:33 <iceTwy> the rest I've learnt, has come from practise
22:00:34 <iceTwy> and googling
22:00:40 <macbeth> :P
22:00:43 <joepie91> Zekka: I usually refer people to
22:00:47 <iceTwy> that may be why my code is dirty, macbeth
22:01:01 <Zekka> The language I occasionally work on in my spare time (not implemented, only partially specified) takes a lot of influence from JS
22:01:02 <macbeth> what does everyone think of this:
22:01:22 <macbeth> as an alt of ice's book
22:01:26 <iceTwy> macbeth: depends.
22:01:28 <joepie91> macbeth; while nice, it is incomplete
22:01:31 <macbeth> im weighing my options
22:01:33 <iceTwy> are you looking to learn programming
22:01:35 <iceTwy> or learning python
22:01:41 <joepie91> and given the state of the Python docs you will find it VERY hard to get the rest of the information
22:01:42 <joepie91> properly
22:01:53 <Zekka> Its major change is that it keeps a much closer correspondence between scopes and objects (similar to Javascript's this constructor form).
22:01:59 <macbeth> which are you refering to , joe?
22:02:01 <joepie91> Zekka: what language?
22:02:08 <joepie91> macbeth: I'm refering to learnpython
22:02:15 <Zekka> joepie91 - Working title is Shokaki, no materials online at this point
22:02:22 <joepie91> ah
22:02:23 <macbeth> so u say tht ishould use ice
22:02:26 <macbeth> s bok?
22:02:28 <macbeth> ** book
22:02:33 <Zekka> Don't consider it likely to be usable too soon, it's a pretty slow-moving side-project
22:02:45 <Zekka> I haven't even made a git repo yet
22:03:00 <KorgLaka_> Pushing SocialFlood to the git repo. cc Zekka, joepie91
22:03:06 <macbeth> git is annoying
22:03:09 <Zekka> KorgLaka - Thanks.
22:03:16 <macbeth> i dont wanna learn a new language to publish my projects
22:03:35 <Zekka> I'll be honest and say that I don't really enjoy using version control even though I'm aware of why I should
22:03:41 <macbeth> and its moar complicated then it needs to be
22:03:48 <macbeth> (git)
22:03:59 <Zekka> That's probably because I tend to code a lot without an IDE so it's not automatic or pretty
22:04:08 <Zekka> (same reason I dislike writing makefiles, etc.)
22:04:31 <joepie91> uh..
22:04:31 <KorgLaka_>
22:04:32 <joepie91> macbethr
22:04:34 <joepie91> macbeth *
22:04:36 <joepie91> git is not a language
22:04:41 <KorgLaka_> ^ git repo
22:04:44 <joepie91> and the point of git isn't publishing
22:05:03 <joepie91> KorgLaka_: moment
22:05:18 <KorgLaka_> k
22:05:31 <joepie91> macbeth:
22:05:34 *** KorgLaka_ is now known as littlewhiterabbit
22:05:36 <joepie91> save to /usr/bin/gitr
22:05:47 <joepie91> you now have a 'gitr' command for easy branch management
22:05:52 <joepie91> because git syntax is kind of sucky
22:06:12 <joepie91> don't mind the code being shit
22:06:13 <joepie91> I suck at bash
22:06:57 <Zekka> joepie - I've been meaning to start just writing my shellscripts in ruby or something
22:07:11 <Zekka> bash is a little messy for me
22:07:25 <joepie91> Zekka; same for me with Python, but some easy-to-do things in bash are far too complex (API-wise) in Python
22:07:43 <Zekka> I think there are a couple shell-replacement libraries for Python
22:07:52 <Zekka> the downside being that scripts you write instantly have large dependencies
22:12:32 <Zekka> I wonder if you could resolve that by including a header for your shell-replacement libraries that automatically wgets a script which installs the library if it's missing
22:13:12 <Zekka> You'd obviously have to write it so it can be installed as non-root, which isn't too hard (copy it somewhere convenient and add it to the pythonpath for the current shell)
22:13:15 <joepie91> Zekka:
22:13:47 <joepie91> also, Zekka,
22:13:50 <Zekka> Also KorgLaka - I still haven't looked at you link, moment and I will
22:14:38 <littlewhiterabbit> ok
22:15:11 <littlewhiterabbit> KorgLaka_ is now known as littlewhiterabbit
22:15:17 <Zekka> I saw
22:15:23 <littlewhiterabbit> oh lol
22:17:20 <iceTwy> also
22:17:22 <iceTwy> !
22:17:32 <iceTwy> I've been looking to switch from Geany to another LIGHTWEIGHT IDE
22:17:39 <iceTwy> and I heavily insist on lightweight
22:17:40 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: there is so much code duplication in here
22:17:43 <iceTwy> so nothing like Eclipse
22:17:48 <iceTwy> any recommendation?
22:17:50 <joepie91> iceTwy: howso switching? :P
22:18:01 <iceTwy> joepie91: well, Geany just doesn't feel complete enough
22:18:02 <Zekka> I'm still reading, is there a reason you write a lot of if (condition) { } else if (!condition) { } else {} ?
22:18:05 <iceTwy> it's great! don't get me wrong
22:18:11 <iceTwy> but I feel I could get more out of an IDE
22:18:17 <joepie91> iceTwy: are you familiar with Brackets?
22:18:20 <joepie91> it's mostly aimed at webdev
22:18:22 <iceTwy> noooope
22:18:23 <joepie91> but easily extensible
22:18:25 <iceTwy> hm
22:18:26 <joepie91>
22:18:28 <joepie91> have a look
22:18:30 <iceTwy> aye
22:18:31 <joepie91> it's realy quite impressive
22:18:36 <joepie91> still technically under development but really nice
22:18:37 <Zekka> /source/core/front-end/lib/php/sf-core-front-end-functions.php is a good example
22:18:48 <Zekka> er, line 120
22:18:58 <joepie91> iceTwy: it is rendered using webkit, but afaik doesn't run heavy
22:19:12 <x> macbeth: o/
22:19:17 <x> hai joepie91
22:19:21 <joepie91> ohai x
22:19:25 <x> :)
22:19:26 <Zekka> Also, is it just me or your indenting a little messy and hard to read?
22:19:33 <Zekka> sorry, maybe these aren't the most germane complaints
22:19:38 <iceTwy> joepie91:
22:19:40 <iceTwy> :D
22:19:47 <joepie91> iceTwy: yes, I run a package from OBS
22:20:03 <joepie91> iceTwy: also, it integrates with chromium devtool
22:20:03 <iceTwy> tbh
22:20:05 <joepie91> devtools *
22:20:05 <Zekka> while I'm complaining though, is there a reason you're looking at $_POST in a module for utility functions?
22:20:15 <iceTwy> one of the IDEs I liked the most was CodeBlocks
22:20:19 <Zekka> $_POST should be meaningful only for specific pages
22:20:20 <iceTwy> but afaik it's only available on Windows
22:20:47 <Zekka> For that matter, is there a rason you're including part of a page body in the function on line 148?
22:21:09 <littlewhiterabbit> Who me?
22:21:40 <Zekka> I'm talking about your code
22:22:02 <littlewhiterabbit> 148 in what file?
22:22:04 <Zekka> Why are you including so much page content in your codebase?
22:22:11 <Zekka> The file I mentioned earlier:
22:22:11 <iceTwy> well?
22:22:15 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: you may want to look into using a real templater...
22:22:18 <iceTwy> would my arch packages mirror happen to be down
22:22:20 <iceTwy> or what
22:22:32 <Zekka> These aren't the cause of the specific bug you mentioned but the things I'm mentioning are the reasons your code has lots of bugs
22:22:53 <Zekka> your style doesn't seem to me to make for maintainable code
22:23:12 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit:
22:23:25 <Zekka> Really, why do you refer to $_POST so much? Why is this module doing anything aside from defining utility  functions?
22:23:26 <joepie91> or whatever real templater you may prefer
22:23:26 <littlewhiterabbit> I have no style actually, sadly I'm still trying to figure out the best style.
22:23:40 <iceTwy> new AMD drivers release for Nov '13
22:23:42 <iceTwy> yay
22:23:59 <Zekka> Shouldn't the pages that provivde forms be figuring out how to respond to them?
22:24:50 <Zekka> I think consistent indenting style, once-and-only-once rule, and separation of concerns would do a lot to clear up this codebase
22:24:58 <littlewhiterabbit> When I refer to $_POST it's to get post data and process it... Uhmmm I thought that was normal.
22:25:14 <Zekka> Well, yes, but why are you referring to $_POST in a module full of utility functions, instead of in the page that has the form?
22:25:33 <Zekka> Shouldn't the page that has the form govern when $_POST is checked and those utility functions are called?
22:25:35 <joepie91> rule: if you do it twice, you should probably abstract it - if you do it thrice, you should DEFINITELY abstract it
22:26:19 <littlewhiterabbit> I dunno
22:26:27 <iceTwy> oh wait what
22:26:30 macbeth has quit (Ping timeout)
22:26:35 <littlewhiterabbit> 50 people telling me 50 different thing so fuck it
22:26:35 <iceTwy> codeblocks is available on linux?
22:26:37 <iceTwy> noice
22:26:43 <Zekka> Who's telling you otherwises?
22:26:48 <littlewhiterabbit> Not in this chat
22:26:51 <littlewhiterabbit> everywhere
22:27:19 <Zekka> Sorry, not trying to be rude, but I feel like thes are problems which, if you fixed, would lead to hgiher-quality code
22:27:24 <littlewhiterabbit> Every single person tells me that I should do things different than the next so t this point im like what the fuck ever dude
22:27:41 <Zekka> Do you know why the things people are telling you are good ideas or not?
22:27:58 <Zekka> Asking 'why' is usually a pretty good idea.
22:28:10 <littlewhiterabbit> These are my main objectives for getting my code "right'...
22:28:33 <littlewhiterabbit> 1) Use Routed Model Views
22:29:00 <Zekka> What's a Routed Model View?
22:29:20 <littlewhiterabbit> 2) Have 0% code in my html files/templates
22:30:21 <Zekka> The second is reasonabe, but there are other non-web-specific considerations you should be making
22:30:23 <littlewhiterabbit> 3) Separate the admin, front end, and back end layers
22:30:35 <joepie91> admin = ?, front end = ?, back end = ?
22:31:02 <littlewhiterabbit> Routed Model Views is my version of MVC
22:31:05 <Zekka> I'm assuming front-end is the view presented to users, admin is the view presented to administrators, and back-end is the model
22:31:32 <littlewhiterabbit> back end is the layer logged in users get
22:31:43 <Zekka> Oh, that's not what most people would call a back end.
22:31:44 <littlewhiterabbit> front end is the view non logged in users get
22:31:59 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: can you describe 'routed model views'?
22:32:03 <littlewhiterabbit> admin is the administrator layer
22:32:06 <joepie91> explain it like I'm five
22:32:24 <Zekka> I've got a question but I'll wait until you've answered joepie
22:32:57 <littlewhiterabbit> Router routes to the model and the model builds the view
22:33:02 <littlewhiterabbit> from a template
22:33:23 <joepie91> you're using the wrong words then
22:33:31 <joepie91> what the router routes to is the controller
22:33:31 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok
22:33:37 <joepie91> not the 'model'
22:34:03 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: what's the difference with MVC?
22:34:08 <Zekka> Can you be a little more clear? I still don't get it.
22:34:09 <littlewhiterabbit> See this is way too much for one guy to do who is not expert
22:34:38 <iceTwy> Is any good?
22:34:40 <iceTwy> .title
22:34:41 <botpie91> iceTwy: Learn C The Hard Way
22:34:54 <Zekka> So you've got structured data and actions on that data, and you've got a system that builds forms to interact with that data automatically, is that right?
22:34:56 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: no, the problem is that you're using a lot of 'advanced' terminology without, I think, really understanding what I mean
22:35:00 <joepie91> er
22:35:02 <joepie91> what it means *
22:35:10 <joepie91> so you start using the wrong words for the wrong concepts
22:35:12 <joepie91> and confusion abound
22:35:28 <Zekka> So you've got a structured representation of each action and that's converted to a form?
22:35:32 <joepie91> try not using any names from now on, just describe what you mean
22:35:40 <littlewhiterabbit> I just am learning the whole MVC concept and also I think it obfuscates things but that's what is standars for scalable code and it's been proven so I want to use it but fucking shoot me because I am a potato
22:36:03 <Zekka> If it makes any difference to you I don't know the big words either, so you're more likely to confuse me than impress me
22:36:35 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: right, explain to me how your code works (structure-wise) like I'm five, *without* using any jargon
22:38:16 <littlewhiterabbit> Part A tells part B what the request was. Part B does stuff with part C?
22:38:22 <Zekka> As far as I understand it, MVC is 'you've got structured data, a bank of actions on that data, and some code that specifies how to represent the data in the model -- what you present to the user should be elements taken from your view and input widgets mapped to the actions defined in your controller'
22:38:45 <Zekka> It sounds to me like you described a system very similar to this
22:38:54 <littlewhiterabbit> I don't even know anymore... All I want to do is build a social networking engine that replaces shitty ass WP/BP.
22:39:05 <Zekka> Don't sound so desperate, we're on your side here.
22:39:42 <littlewhiterabbit> I know. I'm just more and more frustrated with this project every day.
22:39:48 <Zekka> plenty of people are more hopeless than you
22:40:25 <Zekka> So, part A receives a request and passes [what information?] to part B about the request. Part B then tells Part C to [do what?]
22:40:32 <littlewhiterabbit> Only my own fault for making ridiculous goals I will likely never achieve on my own.
22:41:46 <Zekka> Fill in those blanks and we'll have a bit of a better picture of what you're going for
22:43:16 <littlewhiterabbit> I'm having trouble explaining it because I don't know what words to say. Here goes a HUGE explanation.
22:43:36 <littlewhiterabbit> Person goes to
22:44:52 <littlewhiterabbit> part A determines what /something is and tells part B stuff about the request...
22:45:05 <littlewhiterabbit> And that doesn't even sound right fuck
22:45:09 <littlewhiterabbit> Im no teacher.
22:45:37 <Zekka> So the program has some component that determines that /something has special meaning and refers to a specific kind of page
22:45:45 <Zekka> it then asks part B 'give the user that kind of page'
22:46:11 <littlewhiterabbit> I am horrible at this shit. I can stand in front of you and point at parts of code and tell you why i did it and what it does but this is like trying to paint you a picture of the inside of my brain. I just don't know how to say it.
22:46:38 <Zekka> Do you program very often? Breaking problems into smaller problems like this is a skill you'll probably develop pretty quickly.
22:47:03 <littlewhiterabbit> I code every chance I get to.
22:47:36 <littlewhiterabbit> If you look at the htaccess file you can see part of the routing
22:47:54 <joepie91> ... oh
22:48:02 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: that's one very simple thing to fix
22:48:04 <littlewhiterabbit> That is where the actual par A starts to happen
22:48:08 <joepie91> your .htaccess should -not- contain application logic
22:48:17 <joepie91> in fact, you really shouldn't be using .htaccess at all
22:48:39 <joepie91> it's slow, HTTP-dependent, and entirely the wrong place
22:48:41 * littlewhiterabbit sighs
22:48:43 <joepie91> er
22:48:46 <joepie91> HTTPd-dependent
22:49:02 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: I pointed you at CPHP a while ago, have you looked at it?
22:49:13 <littlewhiterabbit> Yes
22:49:21 <littlewhiterabbit> I don't get it
22:49:39 <littlewhiterabbit> Looks like some absr=tract form of MVC I don't know
22:51:05 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: it's a variant on MVC
22:51:07 <littlewhiterabbit> This whole MVC style is what is fucking everything up in the first place
22:51:09 <joepie91> did I also link you to the docs?
22:51:28 <littlewhiterabbit> Probably
22:51:46 <joepie91> doesn't sound very convincing..
22:52:07 <joepie91> sec
22:52:17 zest has quit (User quit:  have fun :P)
22:53:20 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit:
22:53:37 <littlewhiterabbit> What is the controler for?
22:54:07 <joepie91> CPHP technically doesn't have a 'controller'
22:54:31 <littlewhiterabbit> That's not what I asked.
22:55:06 <littlewhiterabbit> What purpose does the controller serve in MVC
22:55:07 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: I was under the impression that we were talking about CPHP; if you ask "what is the controller for" then the only reasonable answer is what I just said - if there's no controller, it can't be 'for' anything
22:55:09 <joepie91> right
22:55:43 <joepie91> controller is where application logic goes
22:55:49 <joepie91> basically
22:56:50 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok like comparing the hashed user password DB stored with the inputed hashed pass?
22:58:40 <littlewhiterabbit> What determines if it is logic or not? Like the router... I didn't think that my htaccess file was doing any logic. It just redirects based on the URL requested and passes data. Which is the whole purpose that I was told to use it for my application.
22:59:28 <Zekka> In general most of what users do will be looking at information about the app and telling the app to do interesting things to that information
22:59:38 <Zekka> The things that the app does to the information go into the controller
22:59:45 <Zekka> The things that the app tells the user about the information go into the views
23:00:21 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok, so is building the page to display logic or views?
23:00:26 <Zekka> So if the user wants to see his friends list, the portion of the app that sends him the friends list goes into views.
23:00:32 <littlewhiterabbit> I mean it's both right?
23:00:39 <Zekka> If he wants to add a new friend, the portion of the app that adds the friend goes into controller
23:00:51 <Zekka> Just building the page and presenting information usually belongs to the view portion of the program
23:01:14 <Zekka> The actions the user can take that change the underlying information go into the controller
23:01:24 <littlewhiterabbit> But then I would have php and html all mixed up
23:01:49 <Zekka> Why is that?
23:02:05 <Zekka> Can't you just use templating to separate them?
23:02:34 <littlewhiterabbit> Because you have to somehow transform the data into information.
23:02:44 <littlewhiterabbit> That's what I am doing
23:02:48 <littlewhiterabbit> Templating.
23:02:51 <littlewhiterabbit> Server side
23:03:07 <Zekka> Well, you can transform the data into info suitable for the template within the PHP part of your view, and then use the templating system to substitute the template-suitable data into your templates
23:03:16 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok, so the template is not the view?
23:03:37 <Zekka> No, the template is the part of the view that defines how the transformed data is ultimately presented to the user.
23:03:44 cayce (cayce@cayce.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
23:03:53 <Zekka> Part of the view is probably written in PHP and figures out what the data that needs to be substituted into the template will look like before substituting it
23:04:05 <littlewhiterabbit> But the view and the template should reside in different folders?
23:04:07 <Zekka> Then it feeds that new information to the templating system, which properly substitutes it into the template.
23:04:33 <Zekka> I'd personally put the templates and such in a separate folder from the code that transforms data before substituting it in, but the templates are a part of the view
23:04:53 <Zekka> The templates just define the last transformation: structured data to HTML output
23:05:20 <littlewhiterabbit> Because basically I'm building framework from scratch. Which is a great challenge and I am learning from it.
23:06:02 <littlewhiterabbit> I also get confused about layers
23:07:05 <littlewhiterabbit> Essentially there is a shared layer that contains code that all the other layers use and then there is the logged in user layer and the logged out user layer and the administrator layer.
23:07:18 <Zekka> Don't ask me about whatever the conventional abstraction schemes for various kinds of program are, but an abstraction layer is basically a part of the program that provides a neat interface for a set of functionality and is decoupled from the rest of the code
23:07:41 * cayce paints a new layer on
23:08:06 <Zekka> I'd probably have a model with well-defined access operations as one abstraction layer, logged-in user operations as one abstraction layer, not-logged-in operations as another abstraction layer, and admin-operations as another
23:08:36 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: I'll be back in a bit
23:08:46 <Zekka> Then I'd have form generation and presentation based on user status as another layer, and ultimately implement the front end as another abstraction layer depending on all of the *-operation and generation layers
23:09:03 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok, joepie91 see you then. Thanks for your help as always.
23:09:27 <Zekka> The model is the model, generation/presentation is the view, and the various operation sets are the controller
23:09:53 <Zekka> Depending on how complex the app is I might define the operation sets all on top of a group of general higher-level operations on the model than the ones that are exposed just through the access layer
23:10:11 <Zekka> but that's a minor point and it just depends on how big your access layer is
23:11:41 tintin has quit (Ping timeout)
23:12:34 <littlewhiterabbit> Technically this is a multilayer MVC style framework
23:14:42 <Zekka> I guess you get what the purpose of layered-architecture is? Just making sure
23:14:58 <littlewhiterabbit> Yeah
23:15:22 <littlewhiterabbit> It keeps code that is not part of that layer out of it and helps with security right?
23:16:01 <Zekka> First one is a bit circular and I'm not sure the security thing is too big a concern, but generally, it's much easier to code if you've divided your program into separate components that are already known to work
23:16:39 <Zekka> Like if you're working with TCP: you have to deal with far fewer bugs if you already know that your messages *will* get there and you just have to think in terms of a stream
23:17:17 <Zekka> You don't need to bother yourself about implementation details if you encapsulate known-to-work portions of your program in their own layers with clearly-defined interfaces
23:18:48 <Zekka> If you're not working with layers and everything's tightly coupled, you don't just have to deal with whether the code you're writing now works, but you don't have any guarantee that you're interfacing with other code in the right way, or that the code you're interfacing with works
23:19:13 <littlewhiterabbit> Ohhhh ok
23:19:19 <littlewhiterabbit> I see what you mean
23:19:20 <Zekka> At least that's always been my understanding
23:21:18 <littlewhiterabbit> I wish I had more people actually coding on this
23:21:24 <littlewhiterabbit> than myself
23:21:28 <littlewhiterabbit> and me
23:21:32 <littlewhiterabbit> and I
23:21:35 <Zekka> I haven't spent much time coding the past few days
23:21:39 <littlewhiterabbit> That's the whole team
23:21:51 <Zekka> Oh, you meant on your project, specifically
23:22:05 <Zekka> I'm not sure I'm comfortable enough with PHP's quirks to offer more than moral support
23:22:06 <littlewhiterabbit> YEah
23:22:18 <Zekka> I've developed a little software in PHP but not much
23:22:47 <littlewhiterabbit> Also another point that maybe this is better done with a different platform than php
23:23:09 <Zekka> I'm not a PHP fan but it's probably the most widely-used and easily-deployable serverside web language at this point
23:23:15 * joepie91 back
23:23:17 <joepie91> let me read
23:23:21 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
23:23:21 <loggy>
23:23:40 * littlewhiterabbit takes a shot of tequila
23:23:52 <Zekka> Hold up, I'll be back in five or so minutes
23:24:11 <littlewhiterabbit> OK
23:24:20 <joepie91> 23:00:21 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok, so is building the page to display logic or views?
23:24:25 <joepie91> view
23:24:37 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok
23:24:49 <joepie91> views determine *how* to display the data
23:24:58 <joepie91> 23:02:44 <littlewhiterabbit> That's what I am doing
23:24:58 <joepie91> 23:02:48 <littlewhiterabbit> Templating.
23:25:03 <joepie91> templating involves more than just str_replaces
23:25:05 <joepie91> when done properly
23:25:47 <littlewhiterabbit> But the template also determines how to display the data
23:26:07 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: whether display logic is in the template or the view code depends on what framework you use
23:26:38 <iceTwy> joepie91: I think you'd like reading
23:26:44 <iceTwy> (like, take a random chapter)
23:26:51 <iceTwy> it includes a nice "How To Break It" part
23:26:59 <iceTwy> for each chapter!
23:27:10 <joepie91> iceTwy: it's C; "how to break it" hardly needs a section of text
23:27:16 <joepie91> :)
23:27:17 <iceTwy> hahaha
23:27:20 <iceTwy> true lol
23:27:32 <joepie91> right
23:28:11 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: when comparing CPHP to an MVC framework, the difference is that CPHP has models, 'controllers' (technically 'modules'), and templates
23:28:36 <joepie91> what would normally be the view code is partially in the templates (base logic like looping etc.)
23:28:46 <joepie91> and partially in the 'modules' (transformations)
23:28:49 <littlewhiterabbit> If anyone knows anyone who would like to work on this project please let me know or show them my git repo. I am overwhelmed.
23:28:59 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: please read what I am explaining carefully
23:29:08 <joepie91> twice, if necessary
23:29:14 * littlewhiterabbit is
23:29:27 <joepie91> a 'module' in CPHP doesn't really work the same as a controller; it's more a procedural approach
23:29:43 <Zekka> Back.
23:29:46 <joepie91> a module typically represents one (type of) page like a view does, but has application logic like a controller does
23:29:57 <joepie91> it's really just a PHP file that gets include()d based on what the router says
23:30:12 <Zekka> I'm pretty sure the default state of C code is broken, ubt don't take my word for it
23:30:26 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: basically, it's less abstraction to work your way through
23:30:31 <littlewhiterabbit> joepie91, I don't want to use CPHP because it's just going to further confuse me.
23:30:33 <joepie91> but enough to 'separate concerns' and make code maintainable
23:30:48 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: you're not trying to understand what I am explaining to you
23:31:04 <joepie91> stop trying to come up with reasons not to use it - that is not what this conversation is about
23:31:08 <joepie91> I'm trying to explain the *concept* to you
23:31:22 <joepie91> re-read it again, without "but this will confuse me" in the back of your mind this time
23:31:29 <joepie91> because you're really only confusing yourself
23:31:33 <littlewhiterabbit> I am and I already don't like this... 16:28 joepie91: what would normally be the view code is partially in the templates (base logic like looping etc.)
23:31:34 tintin (tintin@32F1CFFF.BC88B0C2.A27E456C.IP) has joined #crytocc
23:31:45 * joepie91 sighs
23:31:47 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit
23:31:55 <joepie91> this is NOT about what you like or not
23:31:57 <joepie91> it's irrelevant
23:32:01 <joepie91> I am trying to explain a CONCEPT
23:32:03 <joepie91> stop trying to judge it
23:32:07 <joepie91> and try to UNDERSTAND it first
23:32:18 <Zekka> Not that you can't judge it after
23:32:30 <Zekka> it's fun to complain about other people's designs
23:32:48 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: you have an extremely adverse response to anything you're not familiar with, you're constantly looking for things to "judge" concepts on before you even fully understand them
23:32:51 <joepie91> this is why you get so lost
23:32:53 <joepie91> stop doing it
23:33:15 <x> when you start picking apart a concept, you won't learn anything
23:33:18 <joepie91> read my entire explanation again, without trying to "judge" it or determine whether you "like" it
23:33:24 <joepie91> just try to UNDERSTAND it.
23:33:26 <littlewhiterabbit> joepie91, I am focusing on learning MVC, not CPHP. You are pushing CPHP on me like a drug. I do not want it.
23:33:39 <Zekka> I think picking apart a concept for the right reasons is a pretty good way to learn about it
23:33:42 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: okay, I am not going to spend any more time on this conversation
23:33:47 <joepie91> you are not listening to what I'm saying
23:34:00 <littlewhiterabbit> Ok
23:34:06 <joepie91> I won't continue discussing this until you've re-read and understood all that I just said
23:34:06 <x> littlewhiterabbit: you could just be nice and listen but ignore any CPHP
23:34:35 <joepie91> and no, littlewhiterabbit, that is not me being 'stubborn' - I've told you multiple times now that I'm not trying to tell you to use CPHP, but just trying to explain the concept
23:34:48 <joepie91> you are the one interpreting this as someone pushing you to use CPHP
23:34:53 <joepie91> despite being told repeatedly that that isn't the case
23:34:57 <joepie91> the problem here is on your side of the fence
23:36:44 <littlewhiterabbit> My questions are only about MVC.
23:37:01 <littlewhiterabbit> Any other information is not applicable to me at the moment.
23:37:22 <iceTwy> then..
23:37:44 <iceTwy> what if other people tell you similar things that joepie just said
23:37:56 <iceTwy> not necessarily about CPHP but about the way to solve your problem
23:38:16 <iceTwy> that could very well happen if you want people to contribute to your project because you're overwhelmed
23:38:19 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit: simply put, you are not in a position to decide what is 'applicable to you' orn ot
23:38:31 <littlewhiterabbit> lol
23:38:38 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit; you're the one that doesn't understand certain concepts
23:38:43 <Zekka> I didn't read Joepie's lecture so much as an "if you wanted to do it right you would be using CPHP" as an "if I were solving this problem I would solve it the way I solved it when writing CPHP"
23:38:48 <littlewhiterabbit> Because I am not a real boy. I am a puppet. I will obey.
23:38:51 <littlewhiterabbit> Yes master.
23:38:54 <joepie91> that makes you automatically unqualified to determine whether information is relevant to understanding it, or not
23:39:08 <joepie91> if you could reliably determine that, then we likely wouldn't be talking about MVC at all
23:39:16 <Zekka> I'd be about as upset as you if I were being lectured on why my only hope was $mvc_variant_number_forty
23:39:19 <joepie91> and you'd be picking out a full understanding from random search results
23:40:10 <littlewhiterabbit> Wow
23:40:30 <littlewhiterabbit> This whole conversation just went to shit.
23:40:38 <Zekka> It did? I was trying to be nice.
23:40:56 <littlewhiterabbit> Only because I want to first grasp MVC before moving onto your CPHP>
23:41:01 <Zekka> I don't think Joepie was because that's not really a thing he goes out of his way to do, but he was being alright.
23:41:21 <Zekka> He's saying that the kinds of problems you'll have implementing an MVC scheme are the kinds of problems he was able to solve in a certain way when writing CPHP.
23:41:34 <joepie91> littlewhiterabbit; CPHP is a simpler concept to grasp, and it's easy to understand MVC from there on
23:41:38 <joepie91> that is why I tried to explain it to you
23:41:38 <Zekka> There are problems in common here that he wanted to help out with, and CPHP provides an example of how to solve them.
23:41:48 <joepie91> but you were too busy shouting NO I DON'T LIKE IT to actually absorb that information
23:42:04 <joepie91> I mean, I didn't even get to finish explaining it
23:42:08 <joepie91> before you went complaining about it
23:43:40 <littlewhiterabbit> Troll successful. I am fucking pissed. You win.
23:43:46 littlewhiterabbit has quit (Client exited)
23:45:19 <Zekka> I feel pretty sorry for that guy
23:45:44 <joepie91> he'll be back
23:45:58 <joepie91> not the first time this happens