Cryto! 9 September 2013
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00:03:43 <lysobit> so
00:04:05 <lysobit> it turns out if you phone the number on the wikileaks website someone actually answers
00:05:14 <lysobit> which is surprising tbh
00:08:55 <cayce> awsm
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00:32:00 <joepie91> lysobit: heh
00:32:09 <joepie91> also, I am messing about with suse studio
00:32:15 <joepie91> suse stuff is really surprisingly extensible
00:32:27 <joepie91> open build service, suse studio, Python bindings for the package manager...
00:32:39 <joepie91> but looks like I'll be doing some more packaging soon :/
00:41:19 <cayce> joepie91:) is there a way to see if I've approached my b/w cap on ramhost?
00:41:50 <joepie91> cayce: it's in your panel
00:42:17 <cayce> er
00:42:38 <cayce> client area -> products+services > details tells me nothing
00:43:32 <cayce> it tells me that I've paid, when my next bill is due, and how much
00:43:35 <cayce> :/
00:44:30 <joepie91> your VPS panel I mean
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00:44:38 <joepie91> not the billing panel
00:46:03 <cayce> where is that >_>
00:46:11 <cayce> It's not linked anywhere in the billing panel
00:46:22 <cayce> (and why isn't it?)
00:46:38 <joepie91> http://www.ramhost.us/?page=members
00:46:44 <joepie91> click the appropriate link depending on whether it was openvz or kvm
00:46:45 <joepie91> :P
00:47:03 <joepie91> and idk why it isn't
00:48:12 * cayce sighs
00:48:50 <cayce> there we go
00:49:01 * cayce hates non-sso systems
00:49:40 <joepie91> http://owely.com/6oBpQd
00:49:43 <joepie91> getting there, but not quite...
00:50:17 <cayce> oh
00:50:18 <cayce> 0.397 GB of 500 GB (0.08%)
00:50:20 <cayce> very nice
00:50:36 <joepie91> cayce: you don't happen to have a hint as to why the above is happening?
00:51:03 <cayce> whatever handles those window edges crashed
00:51:28 <cayce> that's my guess
00:51:29 <joepie91> the problem is that what handles the window edges, also handles the close button and such
00:51:31 <joepie91> so clearly it didn't break entirely
00:51:32 <joepie91> :|
00:51:34 <joepie91> (xfwm4)
00:52:40 <joepie91> weird
00:52:44 <joepie91> it works fine under root user
00:52:49 <joepie91> (with default theme)
00:52:51 <joepie91> but not under local user
00:52:52 <cayce> permissions on the images?
00:52:53 <joepie91> (with selected theme)
00:53:01 <joepie91> there's more bugs
00:53:06 <joepie91> z-index on focus doesn't work
00:53:22 <joepie91> oh wait
00:53:22 <joepie91> it does
00:53:22 <joepie91> nvm
00:54:04 <joepie91> haha what
00:54:09 <joepie91> root-owned config dirs in the user dir
00:55:08 <joepie91> why is that root:root
00:55:15 <cayce> weird
00:55:35 <joepie91> xnoise also broken
00:55:39 <joepie91> same reason it seems
00:56:14 <joepie91> right
00:56:16 <joepie91> SSH time
00:56:19 <joepie91> VNC is pissing me of
00:56:20 <joepie91> off *
00:57:48 <joepie91> haha oops
00:57:52 <joepie91> forgot to add yast2 firewall module
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01:09:46 <joepie91> welllllll
01:09:47 <joepie91> cayce:
01:09:47 <joepie91> http://www.novell.com/support/kb/doc.php?id=7010284
01:09:51 <joepie91> this would explain the problem
01:28:21 <cayce> that'd do it
01:29:32 <joepie91> oh jesus christt
01:29:33 <joepie91> http://askubuntu.com/questions/270816/xubuntu-title-bar-missing
01:29:43 <joepie91> It was in the default Xubuntu theme "GREYBIRD". To fix this, simply go to: Settings Manager -> Window manager and change the theme to anything other than greybird or greybird_compact.
01:29:51 <joepie91> YEAH THANKS EXCEPT THAT WAS THE THEME I WAS TRYING TO USE AND IT WORKS FINE HERE
01:29:53 <joepie91> ffs
01:31:46 <joepie91> https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/issues/12
01:35:27 <cayce> :<
01:35:36 <cayce> NP: [Netsky - Puppy] [2] [1100kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
01:35:51 <joepie91> getting suspicious of the greybird version in my appliance now
01:36:48 <cayce> I just finished icetwy's video, which was awesome until stallman got up
01:36:57 <cayce> guy has no idea how to public speak lol
01:37:07 <joepie91> greaaaaaaaaat, looks like suse ships an ancient version of greybird
01:37:08 <joepie91> for fucks sake
01:37:26 <cayce> whos the package maintainer
01:37:26 <cayce> email em
01:37:31 <joepie91> no
01:37:36 <joepie91> I'll just grab from X11:xfce
01:37:39 <joepie91> it carries a newer one
01:37:42 <joepie91> where this should be fixed
01:37:55 <joepie91> (package search is awesome!)
01:38:32 <cayce> oh man, my twitter feed is gold right now
01:38:56 <cayce> all covering techcrunch hackathon that just finished
01:38:58 <cayce> comedy gold
01:39:07 <joepie91> lol
01:39:10 <joepie91> guess: titstare
01:39:12 <cayce> yes
01:39:17 <cayce> again, comedy gold
01:39:42 <cayce> "nothing like typing fake masturbating app into google"
01:39:53 <cayce> because journalists are going around asking everyone for comment
01:39:57 <cayce> and not journalists too
01:41:11 <cayce> NP: [Netsky - When Darkness Falls (feat. Bridgette Amofah)] [2] [1012kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
01:41:31 <cayce> sounds like it's an app that shows you boobs on command?
01:41:39 <cayce> "I think you're looking for google"
01:42:11 <joepie91> http://owely.com/56Cene
01:42:16 <joepie91> let's see how much shit will break now!
01:42:31 <joepie91> well probably nothing
01:42:32 <joepie91> but still :P
01:43:26 <joepie91> it's almost 4 AM
01:43:39 <joepie91> I should be sleeping, not dicking around with custom distros
01:44:49 <cayce> man, their tagline is gold
01:44:58 <cayce> "It's the breast, most titillating fun you cans have."
01:45:28 <cayce> It's a tempest in a teacup, but I think it's funny
01:45:37 <cayce> not appropriate AT ALL, but at least they didn't half-ass it
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01:46:38 <cayce> oh man
01:46:45 <cayce> adria richards was on stage
01:46:46 <cayce> oh man
01:46:50 <cayce> I would pay anything to see her face
01:46:52 <cayce> ANYTHING
01:47:16 <KaEsse> wwiii here we come
01:47:29 <KaEsse> =)
01:48:26 *** KaEsse is now known as KoalaStomper
01:49:39 <cayce> I just hate that woman
01:49:54 <cayce> She's so manipulative of everything, and not even for good
01:51:01 <cayce> not hate, tbh, I'd probably get along with her in person as long as she didn't start talking about her twisted version of feminism
01:51:19 <cayce> unfortunately, that's her job so it's pretty unlikely that wouldn't happen
02:00:05 <joepie91> whoo, greybird no longer broken!
02:00:44 <joepie91> http://owely.com/7l0Ven
02:01:03 <joepie91> and everything is generally nicer now
02:02:01 <joepie91> user@linux:~> google-chrome
02:02:02 <joepie91> Aborted
02:02:02 <joepie91> user@linux:~>
02:02:02 <joepie91> uh...
02:02:19 <joepie91> that's... not supposed to happen
02:04:03 <KoalaStomper> sudo
02:04:15 <joepie91> why would I sudo google-chrome?
02:04:20 <KoalaStomper> i have no idea
02:04:28 <KoalaStomper> im pretending to know something about linux
02:04:31 <KoalaStomper> ;)
02:05:15 <joepie91> what in the fuck happened to my terminal font rendering
02:05:15 <joepie91> http://owely.com/11eAKce
02:05:59 <cayce> I don't know, but it's shittier than usual
02:06:07 <KoalaStomper> you have the green rectangle monkey infection
02:07:55 <KoalaStomper> ive heard of that
02:07:56 <KoalaStomper> nasty
02:28:02 <cayce> mmm, sunday night
02:56:11 <cayce> NP: [Imagine Dragons - Radioactive] [Night Visions] [986kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
02:56:17 <cayce> first time I've listened to the original haha
03:44:30 <twitchyl1quid64> joepie91: do you believe ISPs will ever stop allowing incoming connections for home networks?
03:45:06 <twitchyl1quid64> everyone: can anyone list applications aside from bittorent which rely on the ability to recieve incoming connections?
03:45:31 * twitchyl1quid64 pokes MK_FG joepie91
03:55:12 <cayce> it's going to become harder over time because instead of deploying ipv6 they're mostly preparing to deploy carrier grade nat
03:55:46 <cayce> anything that is even slightly peer to peer requires incoming connections to run WELL, though many work around that
04:14:39 <twitchyl1quid64> cayce: do most gaming networks use a P2P system?
04:16:38 <cayce> most game distributions systems do
04:17:56 <twitchyl1quid64> good
04:18:03 <twitchyl1quid64> I dont think many ISPs would mess with that then
04:18:18 <twitchyl1quid64> they would be publicly denounced and the gaming community would move away from that carrier
04:19:13 <twitchyl1quid64> I think we need webRTC to become widespread ASAP
04:19:58 <twitchyl1quid64> so ISPs cant disable incoming connections without breaking my applications and causing issues with their customers
04:20:32 <twitchyl1quid64> this will already happen to some extent, as torrenters will move away from certain ISPs and gamers aswell
04:20:43 <twitchyl1quid64> a big enough group to make a sizeable dent in their profits
04:20:49 <twitchyl1quid64> </rant>
04:23:20 <cayce> all of blizzard's shit is torrents, same with many popular mmo's which use either bittorrent DNA or pando
04:23:23 <cayce> there we go
04:23:27 <cayce> sorry was trying to find the name
04:23:59 <cayce> isp's are already on a path to cgnat
04:24:01 <cayce> good luck
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04:26:43 <twitchyl1quid64> cayce: do you think we will still have NAT on ipv6?
04:26:54 <cayce> nah
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04:27:10 <cayce> problem is passing ipv6 through shitty old ipv4only stuff
04:29:12 <twitchyl1quid64> not really
04:29:18 <twitchyl1quid64> DS-Lite tunnels
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11:22:12 <Amnesthesia> \o/
11:28:11 <joepie91> <twitchyl1quid64>joepie91: do you believe ISPs will ever stop allowing incoming connections for home networks?
11:28:18 <joepie91> not really, because it's pretty trivial to work around it
11:28:23 <joepie91> therefore it's kind of pointless to do so
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11:48:25 <joepie91> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/08/wall-street-versus-poor-in-america
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12:47:04 <IR601> hi all
12:47:24 <norbert79> hi
12:48:27 <IR601> dont spose you know if fstab is hierarchical
12:48:45 <IR601> as in if you mount two devices into the same folder
12:48:56 <IR601> the 1st one will get it and the 2nd will be ignored
12:49:08 <norbert79> YOu can, the last mount overrules the first
12:49:14 <IR601> and if the 1st one fails the 2nd one gets it
12:49:21 <IR601> oh the last mount
12:49:23 <norbert79> so if you dismount the second you still have the first
12:49:28 <norbert79> afaik
12:49:49 <IR601> im trying to make some kinda fallback option for when im not on my lan
12:50:09 <joepie91> could always just write a bash script!
12:50:14 <IR601> lol
12:50:20 <IR601> i could couldnt i
12:50:46 <IR601> check for 1st mount fail then mount the 2nd
12:51:00 <IR601> ok im gonna bash one out
12:51:03 <IR601> giggady
12:51:08 <norbert79> Giigidy
12:51:10 <norbert79> :)
12:51:15 <norbert79> I think that's Giggity
12:51:19 <IR601> lol
12:51:24 <norbert79> Haven't seen Family Guy since season 9
12:51:28 <norbert79> Got bored
12:51:29 <norbert79> :)
12:51:37 <IR601> how can you correct spelling on a word that does not exist
12:51:49 <IR601> :P
12:52:05 <norbert79> It doesn't add like that in my head
12:52:11 <norbert79> I listen to the voices inside my head
12:52:14 <norbert79> they all say I am ok
12:52:19 <norbert79> so I am!
12:52:46 <joepie91> so!
12:52:51 <joepie91> my Prosody 0.9 package was published!
12:53:07 <joepie91> OBS is no longer broken!
12:53:07 <joepie91> :p
12:53:19 <joepie91> see http://software.opensuse.org/package/prosody?search_term=prosody
12:54:17 <norbert79> Nice, no OpenSuse around here though
12:56:29 <IR601> if mount | grep /mnt/music > /dev/null; then
12:56:30 <IR601> fi
12:56:30 <IR601> else
12:56:30 <IR601> mount //newmount/music /mnt/music
12:56:31 <IR601> fi
12:56:32 <IR601> shld do it?
12:57:11 <norbert79> ehmmm
12:57:17 <norbert79> Not really... depends of course
12:57:33 <norbert79> are these regular mounts or goes through network?
12:58:02 <IR601> there networked
12:58:10 <IR601> the mount point in fstab is on my lan
12:58:30 <IR601> i need the fallback option to mount a share via the internet
12:58:45 <IR601> when im not at home
12:58:48 <norbert79> You might want to consider handling timeouts
12:58:52 <norbert79> and such
12:59:06 <norbert79> wouldn't generic SSH access be easier and then manual mounting? :)
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13:04:47 <IR601> na im gonna have to open a samba share on the server side i have some crazy 2fa ssh auth
13:07:38 <norbert79> Just saying, because CIFS shares have several options too... Anyway think of timeouts too
13:07:41 <norbert79> when coding this
13:08:59 <IR601> hrm i got the bash script working ok but i think i leave it
13:09:15 <IR601> i dont really want to open fileshariing to the internet
13:09:38 <IR601> could always hide it thru openvpn
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13:53:59 <h8R> whats the minimum count of machines I need to successfully create a test grid?
13:55:19 <joepie91> h8R: test grid for..?
13:56:19 <h8R> tahoe-lafs* sorry for beeing such an introvert
13:56:48 <joepie91> oh :P
13:56:55 <joepie91> well, technically you could set up a grid of your own with just one machine
13:57:01 <joepie91> but that would kind of... defeat the point
13:57:17 <joepie91> the best you could do with two machines for redundancy would be duplication
13:57:22 <joepie91> so that's also not terribly interesting
13:57:40 <joepie91> so I guess that 3 nodes is the minimum to do anything really interesting
13:57:42 <joepie91> such as 2-out-of-3 encoding
13:57:57 <joepie91> plus an introducer which you'll probably want to live on some other machine
14:02:54 <h8R> 1 introducer + 3 storage machines? I'm a little bit frustrated with the client role?
14:12:43 <joepie91> h8R: what do you mean?
14:14:40 <h8R> joepie91, i'm frustrated what is the storage client doing? pulling the information from the storage?
14:15:28 <h8R> anyways I'm starting with this tutorial http://www.cryto.net/guides/tahoe-debian.html
14:15:41 <joepie91> I think you mean 'confused', not 'frustrated'?
14:16:20 <joepie91> anyway, that guide is only for setting up a storage node
14:16:24 <joepie91> for an existing grid
14:16:27 <h8R> yeah, excuse my english :) my bulgarian is better
14:16:28 <joepie91> not for setting up a new grid
14:17:10 <joepie91> a 'client' is just an instance of tahoe-lafs that has the ability to access data on the grid
14:17:21 <h8R> my initial plan was to be part of your network, but I want to experiment with the technology, i'm very interested
14:17:38 <joepie91> a storage server is technically also a client (since it can also access data on the grid), but normally you'd only use the term 'client' for something that *doesn't* act as a storage server
14:17:56 <joepie91> a typical grid is made up of one introducer, one or more storage servers, and zero or more clients
14:18:05 <h8R> joepie91, i see now
14:18:05 <MK_FG> Client is what actually encrypts all your data and has access to all your keys
14:18:12 <joepie91> the introducer is a server that literally introduces nodes to each other
14:18:20 <joepie91> it tells a new node that joins the network, how to connect to the rest
14:18:25 <joepie91> the storage servers store data
14:18:38 <joepie91> and what is normally called a 'client', would use the grid to store or retrieve data but not store anything itsldf
14:18:39 <joepie91> itself *
14:19:28 <joepie91> if you wanted to run a tahoe-lafs grid for your own backups, you could for example rent 4 servers (or VPSes), set one up as an introducer, set up the other three as storage servers
14:19:34 <joepie91> and then install a client on your home PC
14:19:52 <joepie91> all of them connect to the same introducer, and you'll be able to store data on the servers from your home PC, using tahoe-lafs
14:20:02 <joepie91> (that's just an example setup, you can do a lot more stuff)
14:20:41 <joepie91> this goes more in-depth about the technical side: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/browser/trunk/docs/architecture.rst
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14:54:24 <cayce> er
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14:54:39 <cayce> the pentagon is weighing using airforce bombers in syria :O
14:54:53 <cayce> that is going to end SO BADLY
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14:56:34 <cayce> hmmm
14:56:36 <cayce> e.e
14:57:32 <iceTwy> kawai desuuuu
14:57:42 <cayce> loggy, pointer?
14:57:42 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-09-09#T14-57-42
14:58:37 * cayce sighs
14:59:14 <cayce> if we send bombers in, they'll be shot down
14:59:15 <cayce> :/
14:59:24 <cayce> there will be losses
14:59:29 <cayce> syria is not iraq
15:00:59 <cayce> the other problem is retaliation
15:01:03 <IR601> they will get raped just as hard
15:01:13 <cayce> It's possible russia may drag themselves in
15:01:26 <cayce> IR601:) not in 3 days
15:01:36 <IR601> XD
15:01:46 <cayce> syria has much older tech than us, yes, but tech doesn't make up for skill
15:01:54 <IR601> russia may supply weapons on the sly but they wont publicly go against america
15:01:58 <cayce> it's one of the reasons we haven't invaded iran
15:02:00 <cayce> they'
15:02:07 <cayce> iran would swamp us toe to toe
15:02:31 <cayce> we have the best everything, but they have 70's and 80's jets and have been flying them every day for as many years
15:02:32 <IR601> iran is too big to occupy
15:02:36 <cayce> you're not going to get more skilled pilots
15:03:09 <cayce> It's like the old timers who use old tech and win because they can "feel it"
15:03:22 <cayce> that's the situation we'd be in
15:03:53 <cayce> and yeah, we'd win long run, but we'd lose too
15:06:26 * cayce tries feverishly to reduce the number of tabs
15:08:33 <cayce> man
15:08:51 <cayce> I feel for the un inspection team
15:09:01 <cayce> those motherfuckers have 7 billion people watching
15:17:34 <MK_FG> Hm, is there really any defences left though?
15:18:12 <MK_FG> Seem to be war going on there for a while, I'd think it should be safe to bomb by now
15:19:20 <MK_FG> Also, I think russia wanted to sell AA there, but the money (or something, maybe intl pressure) prevented that deal, so they may not have anything new from us, unless of course it's sikrit
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16:06:00 <cayce> yeah putin's got aa that could wipe some of our shit, ditto on whether syria has it or will
16:08:50 <MK_FG> I don't know much about military tech, but state of local industry and military seem to be in quite a disarray since ussr went south and there're no budgets for anything, so I'd rather think it WAS good for 80s-90s, but it's 2013 now :P
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16:45:28 <HiveResearch> joepie91: was thinking the new layout - something must be wrong with my eyes - (no it's not the fact that it looks like windows 8) there's a feeling like it's too kiosk-like
16:47:49 <joepie91> HiveResearch: how do you mean?
16:50:47 <HiveResearch> try bigger tiles, more subtle outline, sidebar for forums
16:51:13 <HiveResearch> it's giving me major ADHD looking at it as is
16:51:28 <HiveResearch> probly just my own weird perception
16:52:49 <HiveResearch> i like the concept
16:53:12 <HiveResearch> it's making my brain hurt sideways for some reason
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18:08:51 <joepie91> http://bitcoinmagazine.com/6939/seans-outpost-announces-satoshi-forest/
18:08:55 <joepie91> .title
18:08:58 <botpie91> joepie91: Sean's Outpost Announces Satoshi Forest, Nine-Acre Sanctuary for the Homeless – Bitcoin Magazine
18:14:02 <lysobit> I remember seeing the original OP on reddit
18:14:59 <lysobit> also
18:15:18 <lysobit> I think there's got to be some sort of conspiracy within internet.bs for holding certain domains
18:15:36 <joepie91> lysobit: ?
18:15:51 HiveResearch has quit (Ping timeout)
18:15:56 <lysobit> " Due to a glitch lulzsecurity.com has not been deleted in time and then we decided not to delete but park it. We in the technical department, will look into this issue. However this domain will be deleted next year in July."
18:15:57 <lysobit> suuure
18:17:03 <lysobit> the same thing didn't happen with .net and .org
18:17:54 <lysobit> for about half a year the domain was redirecting to a flash game site with ads
18:21:00 <joepie91> sounds like bog standard domain parking policy
18:21:00 <joepie91> anyway
18:21:09 <joepie91> just ran across this
18:21:13 <joepie91> and it's a really good point:
18:21:14 <joepie91> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1m0tje/bitcoin_should_market_to_kids/cc4rvgw
18:21:23 <joepie91> "Bitcoin is the lego of economics"
18:22:06 <lysobit> howso
18:22:30 <joepie91> it shares some vital properties with Lego actually
18:22:43 <lysobit> lol
18:22:44 <joepie91> it's relatively easy to build shit with it
18:22:58 <joepie91> it does not impose restrictions on you (other than capabilities)
18:23:09 <joepie91> and you don't need a third party to tell you what you can do with it
18:23:26 <joepie91> (which is exactly why lego got so popular - you could build with it whatever the hell you wanted, even if it wasn't the same as the thing in the manual)
18:23:40 <lysobit> same as gold really
18:23:47 <joepie91> it's more or less a giant building block that just kind of... exists
18:23:52 <joepie91> lysobit: what? absolutely not
18:23:58 <joepie91> it's not "relatively easy to build shit with gold"
18:24:20 <joepie91> messing about with gold has a massive barrier of entry
18:24:27 <joepie91> Bitcoin really doesn't
18:24:33 <MK_FG> Heh, unless we're talking about lego of gold-smelting and coin-minting ;)
18:25:04 <joepie91> lysobit; any kid with a PC can grab some kind of bitcoin library or client if he's interested
18:25:07 <joepie91> learn basic programming
18:25:09 <joepie91> and build cool shit with it
18:25:17 <joepie91> even if just for experimentation
18:25:32 <joepie91> some examples of that would be the bitcoin tipping bot
18:25:34 <joepie91> (on reddit)
18:25:42 <joepie91> the colored coins principle (which is a bit more advanced)
18:25:43 <joepie91> and so on
18:26:09 <joepie91> it's pretty much programming with money (or, in this perspective, tokens)
18:26:10 <lysobit> http://img3.etsystatic.com/000/0/5343173/il_fullxfull.217567195.jpg?
18:26:15 <lysobit> also
18:26:26 <lysobit> that sounds like a potentially dangerous idea
18:26:31 <joepie91> why?
18:26:42 <lysobit> because if the kid doesn't secure his shit
18:26:47 <lysobit> or has some security hole
18:26:51 <lysobit> all his bitcoins = gone
18:26:54 <lysobit> for ever
18:27:03 <lysobit> unlike say, playing with paypal api
18:27:12 <MK_FG> You don't give kid all your btc fortunes
18:27:14 <joepie91> if the kid doesn't remove his lego structure from the living room, someone will step on it and destroy it
18:27:18 <lysobit> just look at the linode hack
18:27:20 <joepie91> lysobit: you are aware of the existence of a testnet?
18:27:24 <lysobit> no
18:27:27 <joepie91> go read up on it :)
18:27:32 <MK_FG> And it's damn great learning xp actually
18:27:33 <lysobit> actually, I am
18:27:38 <joepie91> it's an entire parallel blockchain for the purpose of developing stuff
18:27:39 <lysobit> I thought you meant a bitcoin-specific one
18:27:40 <joepie91> and messing about
18:27:42 <joepie91> and experimenting
18:27:42 <joepie91> yes
18:27:44 <joepie91> bitcoin testnet
18:28:04 <MK_FG> joepie91, Huh, I thought you meant btc proper
18:28:07 <joepie91> bitcoin testnet is a sandbox
18:28:11 <joepie91> MK_FG; that IS what I meant
18:28:16 <lysobit> it's not going to appeal to a kid if he can't use it in the real world
18:28:17 <joepie91> it's just that there's the testnet if you're afraid of losing shit
18:28:21 <MK_FG> Like, kids selling lemonade on the net for btc instead of cash ;)
18:28:22 <joepie91> during experimenting
18:28:33 * joepie91 sighs
18:28:39 <joepie91> lysobit; that is what I am trying to point out
18:28:51 <joepie91> the testnet is just an alternate blockchain
18:29:01 <joepie91> when you dev something for testnet, it also works on main net
18:29:02 <lysobit> the testnet is not the "real world"
18:29:05 <lysobit> oh?
18:29:10 <lysobit> no, I mean
18:29:12 <joepie91> it just doesn't carry over the BTC
18:29:14 <joepie91> I am not finished yet
18:29:28 <joepie91> if you want to mess about with the technology, then you can freely do so on the testnet
18:29:31 <joepie91> without any risk whatsoever
18:29:41 <joepie91> if at any point you decide you want to use it 'in the real world' you can transition over
18:29:45 <joepie91> with pretty much one line of code changed
18:29:52 <joepie91> that introduces the usual risks and rewards
18:30:02 <lysobit> we're talking about kids here
18:30:17 <joepie91> if as a kid you mess about with banknotes and chemicals (which some kids certainly do) there's also the chance you're going to destroy your money
18:30:30 <joepie91> we're talking about kids interested in technology/science here
18:30:35 <MK_FG> Or rather some bully will take them from you
18:30:40 <joepie91> MK_FG: or that
18:30:50 <joepie91> lysobit: all these risks are not unique to Bitcoin
18:31:09 <lysobit> they're not, but when using other technologies the risks are much, much smaller
18:31:23 <lysobit> for example, with the PayPal API there is no 'wallet.dat' to steal
18:31:30 <lysobit> if your wallet is taken
18:31:34 <lysobit> your money is gone forever
18:31:35 <lysobit> also
18:31:49 <joepie91> also http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1m0tje/bitcoin_should_market_to_kids/cc4qp34
18:32:00 <joepie91> <lysobit>for example, with the PayPal API there is no 'wallet.dat' to steal
18:32:03 <joepie91> that is bullshit
18:32:10 <lysobit> there are API keys to steal
18:32:12 <joepie91> with paypal, there's your account to steal
18:32:13 <joepie91> which happens
18:32:20 <lysobit> right
18:32:21 <joepie91> if you just want to mess about with an API, then use coinbase
18:32:24 <joepie91> or blockchain
18:32:25 <lysobit> but the risks are much smaller
18:32:26 <joepie91> or something similar
18:32:30 <joepie91> ...
18:32:30 <lysobit> if your paypal account is taken
18:32:33 <joepie91> no, they're not
18:32:34 <joepie91> they're identical
18:32:37 <lysobit> err no
18:32:42 <lysobit> you do realise
18:32:45 <lysobit> paypal is a CA
18:32:45 <joepie91> have you ever tried recovering a stolen account from paypal?
18:32:53 <joepie91> let me know how that goes
18:33:03 <MK_FG> Kids aren't allowed to mess with paypal anyway, you can only give them cash
18:33:06 <lysobit> I haven't
18:33:22 <joepie91> lysobit: I know a bunch of people that have, and suffice to say it wasn't terribly successful
18:33:23 <lysobit> but the risks are certainly not 'identica;'
18:33:41 <joepie91> "yeah here you have your account back... oh, the money in it? yeah well, your account security is your responsibility, you're shit out of luck"
18:33:49 <joepie91> lysobit: they are
18:33:59 <joepie91> you want to play with a harmless API, go to coinbase/blockchain/whatever
18:34:03 <lysobit> with paypal there is a chance of getting your stuff back
18:34:07 <joepie91> you want to play with fake coins, use testnet
18:34:08 <lysobit> even if it's slim
18:34:10 <joepie91> ...
18:34:11 <lysobit> as you think it is
18:34:15 <joepie91> lysobit: as there is with Bitcoin
18:34:33 <lysobit> realistically?
18:34:41 <joepie91> realistically, but slim.
18:34:43 <joepie91> just like with paypal.
18:34:43 <lysobit> what are you going to do? hack your bitcoins back?
18:34:55 <lysobit> or is there some other way?
18:34:57 <lysobit> that I'm missing
18:35:14 <lysobit> anyway
18:35:19 <lysobit> I'm all for kids learning code, and such
18:35:24 <joepie91> transfer away your BTC before the thief gets the chance? cooperate with police and exchanges to intercept them? 'hack back' whoever stole it?
18:35:25 <joepie91> plenty of choices
18:35:43 <joepie91> as I said, realistically, but slim, just like with paypal
18:36:19 <joepie91> and I'm really not quite sure why you're comparing paypal and bitcoin, rather than paypal and coinbase/blockchain/whatever
18:36:41 <lysobit> well, we could argue all day about the chances of getting your stuff back with paypal or bitcoin, but I still maintain than paypal is much less risky
18:36:47 <lysobit> if someone gets your API key
18:36:53 <lysobit> they're not inside your account
18:36:59 <lysobit> they can just transfer shit
18:37:14 <lysobit> bt
18:37:14 <lysobit> btw
18:37:43 <lysobit> Teaching kids how to program bitcoin apps seems a bit of a sombre thing to do to get them into tech
18:38:21 <lysobit> I'm all for teaching them about how to use bitcoin in general though, how to sell stuff with bitcoin or whatnot
18:39:27 <joepie91> <lysobit>if someone gets your API key
18:39:28 <joepie91> again
18:39:29 <joepie91> coinbase
18:39:30 <joepie91> blockchain
18:39:36 <joepie91> I already said this... 4 times now?
18:40:17 <lysobit> right
18:40:23 <lysobit> I'm not familiar with these things
18:40:26 <lysobit> but after googling them
18:41:11 <lysobit> If you're going to teach kids to use those, aren't you basically teaching them how to program with the coinbase etc API, not the actual bitcoin protocol?
18:41:37 <joepie91> lysobit: exactly. just like paypal.
18:41:55 <joepie91> the comparison with paypal was your idea, so there you go
18:42:14 <lysobit> What I'm comparing here, is Bitcoin VS. APIs, like PayPal/coinbase/whatever
18:42:23 <lysobit> plus
18:42:43 <lysobit> I thought the original idea was to teach kids how to use bitcoin
18:42:45 <lysobit> not some api
18:43:02 <lysobit> for a 3rd party
18:43:07 <lysobit> that manages your bitcoins for you
18:43:17 <lysobit> that sort of defeats the purpose of bitcoins
18:45:00 <joepie91> lysobit: exactly.
18:45:19 <joepie91> hence the possibility of using either testnet - risk-free - or real net - with the associated risks and rewards
18:45:38 <joepie91> just like the lego building that your mom crushed by stepping on it because you left it in the middle of the living room floor
18:45:46 <joepie91> that you spent so much time on to build
18:46:00 <joepie91> the reward is that you get to show it to your parents, the risk is that they might overlook it and destroy it
18:46:08 <joepie91> which honestly is all a part of it
18:46:39 <lysobit> the problem with that comparison
18:46:48 <lysobit> is that lego is for playing
18:46:51 <lysobit> bitcoin is srs bsns
18:46:59 <lysobit> it's like
18:47:47 <lysobit> you wouldn't use that comparison if the legos were actually money, and they were building stuff with golden legos
18:47:56 <lysobit> and the risk is that their legos get stolen
18:48:26 <lysobit> which happens in irl alot too ofc
18:48:33 <lysobit> with actual money
18:49:24 <joepie91> <lysobit>is that lego is for playing
18:49:24 <joepie91> <lysobit>bitcoin is srs bsns
18:49:25 <joepie91> no, not really
18:49:37 <MK_FG> lysobit, So you won't buy your kid a smartphone or psp
18:49:41 <joepie91> if you play with $5 of BTC then that's not any more 'serious' than your $5 bin of legos
18:50:07 <joepie91> (and probably a hell of a lot of a better investment than most of the other "e-currencies" that parents spend money on for their kids, but that aside)
18:50:16 <lysobit> MK_FG: I would, but my point here is not that the risk is too high (though I've argued above that it is), but lego vs bitcoin is not a good comparison
18:50:37 <joepie91> who am I kidding, no such thing as $5 bin of legos
18:50:44 <lysobit> lol
18:50:45 <joepie91> that'll probably get you 30 bricks or something
18:50:46 <joepie91> lol
18:52:17 <lysobit> joepie91 I can understand that if they're just buying/selling with bitcoins
18:52:30 <lysobit> but realistically what sort of bitcoin apps are they going to be programming?
18:52:39 <lysobit> mining pools?
18:52:49 <lysobit> currency exchangers like mtgox?
18:52:53 <joepie91> who knows? that's kind of the whole point
18:52:55 <lysobit> payment apis?
18:52:56 <joepie91> lol
18:53:04 <joepie91> currency exchangers, certainly not
18:53:10 <lysobit> that's the thing
18:53:17 <lysobit> I can't think of a "lighthearted" thing that could be made
18:53:20 <joepie91> probably no payment APIs either (they still have parents that will tell them "no you can't do that" you know)
18:53:25 <joepie91> lysobit: I gave you two examples
18:53:42 <joepie91> very early on in this conversation
18:53:51 <iceTwy> talking of
18:53:52 <joepie91> <joepie91>some examples of that would be the bitcoin tipping bot
18:53:52 <joepie91> <joepie91>(on reddit)
18:53:52 <joepie91> <joepie91>the colored coins principle (which is a bit more advanced)
18:53:52 <joepie91> <joepie91>and so on
18:53:53 <iceTwy> BTCs
18:54:02 <iceTwy> they're still at $134 on MtGox
18:54:03 <iceTwy> pft
18:54:11 <joepie91> and lysobit: mining pools, perhaps, but probably not a bog standard one - there's too many of those already
18:54:13 <joepie91> iceTwy: ignore mt gox
18:54:19 <iceTwy> no, joe
18:54:23 <iceTwy> joepie91*
18:54:34 <lysobit> bitcoin tipping bot isn't really lighthearted.. it's essentially a payment processor
18:54:39 <lysobit> and what is the colored coins principle?
18:54:39 <iceTwy> for the simple reason that OTC/localbitcoins.com traders base their prices on MtGox's
18:54:56 <iceTwy> so there's no ignoring MtGox when you get BTCs via OTC
18:54:57 <joepie91> lysobit: anything is a payment processor if it sends Bitcoins from A to B and you adhere tto that definition
18:55:00 <joepie91> so that's a moot point
18:55:05 <joepie91> iceTwy: they don't around here
18:55:11 <iceTwy> around where
18:55:13 <joepie91> NL
18:55:20 <iceTwy> herp
18:55:25 <joepie91> localbitcoins prices are usually under mt gox price
18:55:28 <joepie91> haven't checked OTC recently
18:55:29 <iceTwy> at least the guys in #bitcoin-otc on Freenode do
18:55:32 <joepie91> but I'd imagine it to be similar
18:55:54 <joepie91> lysobit: google "bitcoin colored coins"
18:56:01 <lysobit> joepie91: it's not a moot point, my point is that any payment processor app is pretty serious, which is pretty much almost everything you can make
18:56:38 <joepie91> https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf
18:56:50 <joepie91> lysobit: no, it's not
18:56:52 <joepie91> and no, it's not
18:57:12 <lysobit> in that case it's still not a moot point, but go ahead and finish
18:59:07 <joepie91> a 'payment processor app' is not automatically 'pretty serious' as you can pretty much infinitely divide Bitcoins into smaller pieces which means that the only measure of seriousness is how you use it
18:59:10 <joepie91> or how much you put into it
18:59:17 <joepie91> especially by your definition of 'payment processor'
18:59:20 <lysobit> right
18:59:21 <joepie91> which honestly isn't really compatible with Bitcoin
18:59:31 <joepie91> and it's not pretty much almost everything you can make
18:59:36 <joepie91> there's an entire damn scripting language in Bitcoin
18:59:45 <joepie91> for transactions
18:59:52 <joepie91> which is how shit like colored coins can be implemented
19:00:07 <joepie91> and multi-signature transactions
19:00:10 <joepie91> and a lot of other stuff
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19:04:28 <lysobit> <joepie91> a 'payment processor app' is not automatically 'pretty serious' as you can pretty much infinitely divide Bitcoins into smaller pieces which means that the only measure of seriousness is how you use it
19:04:57 <lysobit> ok so why not teach kids also how to use other payment technologies, like the PayPal API or debit card transactions?
19:05:14 <lysobit> would you, in theory, have a problem with that?
19:05:25 <lysobit> assuming that bitcoin is also taught
19:06:24 <joepie91> lysobit: because A. there are arbitrary restrictions by vendors B. you cannot pretty much infinitely divide the money used which leads to it becoming an unpredictable money sink C. you're causing vendor lock-in by teaching kids to work with proprietary platforms rather than an open/reusable/extensible protocol/concept
19:06:44 <joepie91> yes, I know that currently Bitcoins are divisible up to 8 decimals, this is not a hard limit and can be changed
19:08:39 <lysobit> Why would you want to make a payment processor app where only an insanely small amount of bitcoins are transferred? I don't see how the fact that bitcoins are infinitely divisible automatically means it's a predictable money sink.
19:11:01 <joepie91> that they are infinitely divisible is why it's *not* a predictable money sink
19:11:05 <joepie91> er
19:11:07 <joepie91> unpredictable
19:11:34 <joepie91> if something goes wrong during experimentation and you lose half your BTC you just lower the amount you mess around with
19:11:49 <joepie91> lysobit: I get the idea that you're confusing the two situations I'm sketching
19:12:09 <joepie91> one being "hey, let's mess around with this stuff and a bunch of (partial) BTC just to play around and experiment"
19:12:24 <joepie91> and the other being "hey let's build this thing that others can use and try to make it work really well"
19:12:33 <joepie91> they are very different situations
19:12:37 <lysobit> if you're just talking about experimentation, then vendor-based payment systems aren't a money sink either because their testnets have fake money
19:12:49 <joepie91> refer to point A and C
19:17:32 <lysobit> A and C are political points, which is a matter of opinion. In theory we should be teaching kids what is going to be the most useful to them in the real world today (debit cards, etc, which is basically the de-facto mainstream payment method) as well as new technologies like Bitcoins. Note I'm all for Bitcoin taking over the world, but you have to be unbiased despite how "open/reusable/extensible
19:17:33 <lysobit> protocol/concept" is better, if you're aiming to teach kids about how play with payment processing then perhaps Bitcoin isn't something that is going to directly benefit them in the mainstream world
19:18:17 <lysobit> It's a bit like the "should we teach creationism or evolution at school?" debate
19:18:55 <lysobit> except that all forms of payment are valid things to be taught at school
19:19:15 <lysobit> but I suppose it depends on what your idea of a "school" is.
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19:24:08 <joepie91> "In theory we should be teaching kids what is going to be the most useful to them in the real world today"
19:24:11 <joepie91> no, we shouldn'tt
19:24:16 <joepie91> shouldn't*
19:24:17 <lysobit> I KNEW you were going to say that.
19:24:18 <joepie91> this is a recipe for disaster
19:24:19 <lysobit> I just KNEW it
19:24:20 <lysobit> lol
19:24:26 <joepie91> and hey, guess what, we are in disaster right now
19:24:58 <lysobit> <lysobit> but I suppose it depends on what your idea of a "school" is.
19:25:06 <lysobit> also
19:25:44 <lysobit> So you idea of a school it teach what is the _best_ system to use, in your opinion?
19:25:44 <joepie91> the only definition of "school" where I can see your remark fitting in is "institution that is dedicated to maintaining current principles and order, and preventing any changes of power or innovation"
19:25:49 <joepie91> which is a pretty depressing definition
19:25:59 <lysobit> it is a depressing definition
19:26:02 <joepie91> and hopefully one we can get rid of asap
19:26:12 <lysobit> but that is not really my definition
19:26:27 <lysobit> My ideal definition, would probably be:
19:26:32 <joepie91> lysobit: then I fail to see how your remark fits in, as that is exactly what "teaching what is most useful in the real world today" has as a result
19:26:52 <lysobit> then you misread a few words
19:27:00 <joepie91> I doubt that, but go ahead
19:27:04 <lysobit> <lysobit> A and C are political points, which is a matter of opinion. In theory we should be teaching kids what is going to be the most useful to them in the real world today (debit cards, etc, which is basically the de-facto mainstream payment method) as well as new technologies like Bitcoins.
19:27:14 <lysobit> anyway, let me finish
19:27:23 <joepie91> yes, I read that.
19:27:23 <joepie91> twice.
19:29:52 <lysobit> my idea of a school is an institution which a) prepares you for the real world b) teaches you the ideas that are the most accepted in the real world (otherwise are you going to argue that Greek Mythology should be taught over evolution, or a computer science course should only teach you a bunch of obscure programming language for obscure operating systems that are not going to be useful for
19:29:52 <lysobit> you in employment?) and c) teaches you the latest ideas, that are not yet as popular or fully implemented - such as in the case of a computer science course, quantum computing
19:30:14 <lysobit> c) is important otherwise technology just isn't going to evolve
19:30:31 <lysobit> and so is b) otherwise school will be pointless
19:30:47 <lysobit> though, arguable
19:32:08 <joepie91> one moment, I have a stray package manager that refuses to quit, will read in a sec
19:32:27 <joepie91> ah there
19:32:28 <joepie91> fixed it
19:33:09 <joepie91> b and c directly contradict each other
19:33:14 <joepie91> and in practice, focus is laid on b
19:33:17 <joepie91> and really not on c at all
19:33:26 <joepie91> however, often b is taught while masquerading as c
19:33:41 <lysobit> how do they contradict each other? I'm sugging both b and c should be taught
19:33:44 <lysobit> suggesting*
19:34:00 <lysobit> obviously not in the same module or whatever
19:34:07 <joepie91> because one basically argues for keeping the current perceptions intact while the other argues for moving on
19:34:16 <joepie91> you cannot do both
19:34:24 <joepie91> and focus is heavily on b
19:34:37 <lysobit> [20:34:09] <joepie91> because one basically argues for keeping the current perceptions intact while the other argues for moving on
19:34:37 <lysobit> [20:34:18] <joepie91> you cannot do both
19:34:40 <joepie91> which makes c not much more than some philosophical back-of-your-mind brainfarts
19:35:07 <lysobit> both aguments for the present and future should be taught
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19:35:46 <lysobit> in society there are always people pushing for the status quo to be kept, and people pushing for an evolution in one direction
19:36:20 <lysobit> the proposed future doesn't always win, and sometimes within good reason
19:37:37 <lysobit> and also
19:37:44 <lysobit> yes, the emphasis should be kept on b
19:37:47 <lysobit> until you're doing a PhD
19:37:51 <lysobit> where the emphasis will be on c
19:38:00 <lysobit> it depends on the purpose of your degree
19:39:54 <lysobit> <joepie91> you cannot do both | yes they can, otherwise what exactly are you proposing? only that (c) is taught?
19:40:49 <joepie91> I think we are fundamentally disagreeing about the purpose of school
19:41:02 <lysobit> well yes, quite a change in subjects
19:41:09 <joepie91> the purpose I see in it is education, the purpose you see in it appears to be 'fitting within current common society model'
19:41:34 <lysobit> again, no I don't
19:41:45 <joepie91> everything you are describing confirms the above
19:42:08 <lysobit> you are completely missing the parts where I am suggesting that new stuff should be taught
19:42:15 <lysobit> as well as old stuff
19:42:17 <joepie91> no, I am seeing those parts
19:42:22 <joepie91> the problem is that you're presenting them as hypotheticals
19:42:29 <joepie91> rather than as applicable knowledge
19:42:43 <lysobit> besides, how can students make an informed decision on the new stuff without seeing the old stuff
19:42:44 <joepie91> especially with statements like this
19:42:44 <joepie91> <lysobit>yes, the emphasis should be kept on b
19:42:44 <joepie91> <lysobit>until you're doing a PhD
19:43:05 <joepie91> it just drips of "you go learn how to fit in first, then you can try and think about complicated scientific things"
19:43:09 <joepie91> which is completely the wrong atttitude
19:43:10 <joepie91> attitude *
19:43:14 <lysobit> no
19:43:19 <lysobit> what I'm saying is
19:43:43 <lysobit> "you go learn how the existing stuff works, then you can go try and think about the new and untested stuff"
19:44:09 <lysobit> you can't do the latter successfully
19:44:12 <lysobit> without the former
19:44:33 <lysobit> it's not about revolution
19:44:36 <lysobit> it's about evolution
19:44:47 <joepie91> <lysobit>"you go learn how the existing stuff works, then you can go try and think about the new and untested stuff"
19:44:51 <joepie91> that... is basically what I just said
19:45:11 <joepie91> in a slightly less patronizing tone
19:45:54 <lysobit> right, I disagree with how you're interpreting it, but if that's how you what to interpret it...
19:45:57 <lysobit> want8
19:45:58 <lysobit> want*
19:45:58 <joepie91> lysobit: the problem with teaching people existing stuff is that it creates the perception that the existing stuff is automatically most important and relevant
19:46:05 <joepie91> which is complete bullshit
19:46:30 <joepie91> if you teach purely in hypotheticals - whatever is most practical/useful/etc. - then you'll automatically end up with the 'right' solutions to problems
19:46:37 <joepie91> whether that's existing solutions or not
19:46:41 <lysobit> are you actually suggesting that we _shouldn't_ be teaching existing stuff in school?
19:46:45 <joepie91> correct.
19:46:50 <joepie91> in factg
19:46:51 <joepie91> fact *
19:46:55 <lysobit> okay
19:46:56 <joepie91> I'd argue that we shouldn't be teaching at all.
19:47:05 <joepie91> but rather enable people to learn.
19:47:07 <lysobit> so when I go to a pre-school physics class
19:47:16 <lysobit> I should be learning all about high-powered lasers and quantum physics
19:47:22 <joepie91> lysobit: see above
19:49:30 <lysobit> <joepie91> but rather enable people to learn.
19:49:42 <lysobit> there's so many things about this statement I want to say that I don't know where to start
19:49:55 <lysobit> in an ideal world
19:50:24 <lysobit> okay, let's start with this: enabling people to learn what?
19:50:34 <joepie91> what they want/need to learn.
19:51:39 <lysobit> Describe to me a possible method that I could use on, let's say, a 5 year old to enable them to learn what "they want/need to learn".
19:52:02 <lysobit> it's a bit of a bootstrapping problem
19:53:17 <lysobit> how does a 5 year old know what he wants/need to learn without external inspiration or exposure, other than let's say, playing with games or toys all day and watching tv?
19:53:40 <lysobit> you could give him some books
19:54:11 <lysobit> but then again you're basically teaching him not what they "want/need to learn", but what you think is important
19:54:53 <joepie91> <lysobit>how does a 5 year old know what he wants/need to learn without external inspiration or exposure, other than let's say, playing with games or toys all day and watching tv?
19:54:57 <joepie91> what's the problem with that?
19:55:33 <lysobit> let me give you an actual example
19:55:42 <lysobit> that i saw on reddit one time
19:56:04 <lysobit> there was a thread about parents who don't send their kids to school, but simply allow them to explore what they want to learn themselves
19:56:31 <lysobit> there was one kid who was basically spending most of his time making halo mods
19:56:36 <lysobit> so my point is
19:56:45 <lysobit> kids are going to want to learn what they're already exposed to
19:56:47 <lysobit> and therefore
19:56:58 <lysobit> no one is going to want to learn about chemistry, biology or whatever anymore
19:57:07 <lysobit> unless they're exposed to it
19:57:16 <lysobit> and when you expose them to it, you're basically teaching them
19:57:36 <joepie91> lysobit: not identical to what I am talking about
19:57:57 <joepie91> <joepie91>lysobit: not identical to what I am talking about
19:58:03 <lysobit> I answered <joepie91> what's the problem with that?
19:58:10 <lysobit> but then what are you talking about?
19:58:14 <joepie91> yes, and in your answer you are making a whole lot of assumptions
19:58:23 <joepie91> such as the absence of other materials
19:58:32 <joepie91> which is exactly the case in the parent example you gave
19:58:51 <lysobit> that is an assumption yes, and a very valid one
19:58:58 <joepie91> ... no, it's not
19:59:04 <joepie91> what I am talking about is, as I said earlier, enabling kids to learn
19:59:08 <joepie91> which includes providing resources to do so
19:59:13 <joepie91> which is exactly why your assumption is invalid
19:59:28 <lysobit> 20:59:10] <joepie91> which includes providing resources to do so
19:59:29 <lysobit> right
19:59:34 <lysobit> so you propose giving them a selection of books
19:59:38 <lysobit> and they read what they want?
19:59:45 <joepie91> no, that is not what I said nor implied
19:59:46 <lysobit> based on what they're interested in?
19:59:48 <lysobit> then tell me
19:59:51 <lysobit> what you're propsing
19:59:51 <lysobit> :P
20:00:00 <joepie91> the primary bit there that you added
20:00:02 <lysobit> how do you provide the resources?
20:00:03 <joepie91> is "selection of"
20:00:08 <joepie91> which is absolutely not what I am talking about
20:00:17 <joepie91> by making as many resources available as possible
20:00:26 <joepie91> whether that be books, an internet connection, toys, whatever
20:00:33 <joepie91> a musical instrument
20:00:34 <joepie91> a games console
20:00:35 <lysobit> [20:51:40] <lysobit> Describe to me a possible method that I could use on, let's say, a 5 year old to enable them to learn what "they want/need to learn".
20:00:39 <joepie91> anything
20:00:48 <joepie91> providing resources
20:00:51 <joepie91> as I already said
20:00:56 <joepie91> I'm not sure what part of this is unclear to you
20:01:02 <lysobit> ok
20:01:04 <joepie91> or what issue you are seeing
20:01:20 <lysobit> you still haven't answered the question
20:01:23 <lysobit> or statement, for that matter
20:01:29 <lysobit> "providing resources" is not a method
20:01:40 <lysobit> you need to expand on that
20:01:45 <joepie91> uh, yes, it is
20:01:48 <lysobit> ok
20:01:49 <joepie91> there is nothing to expand on
20:01:51 <lysobit> then by that
20:01:52 <joepie91> provide whatever resources you can
20:01:53 <joepie91> have a read here: http://www.nncc.org/Child.Dev/ages.stages.5y.html
20:02:00 <lysobit> I'm going to make a whooole lot of assumptions
20:02:13 <joepie91> note the significant presence of things like 'toys' in that list
20:02:27 <joepie91> so I really do not see the problem with
20:02:29 <joepie91> <lysobit>how does a 5 year old know what he wants/need to learn without external inspiration or exposure, other than let's say, playing with games or toys all day and watching tv?
20:02:37 <joepie91> because that appears to be exactly what the developmental stage is like
20:04:11 <lysobit> I can't really continue until you expand on "provide resources". That link above doesn't tell me how to provide any resources
20:04:22 <joepie91> lysobit: what part is unclear?
20:04:32 <lysobit> In the link?
20:04:35 <lysobit> or your argument?
20:04:48 <joepie91> in the 'provide resources' bit
20:05:14 <lysobit> It's not a method. By provide resources I could assume you mean:
20:05:33 <lysobit> - give them a selection of books (which is apparantly not what you mean)
20:05:46 <lysobit> - give them access to the internet and let them explore whatever they want
20:05:50 <lysobit> - ???
20:06:37 <joepie91> I already gave you a bunch of examples
20:06:49 <joepie91> <joepie91>which is absolutely not what I am talking about
20:06:50 <joepie91> <joepie91>by making as many resources available as possible
20:06:50 <joepie91> <joepie91>whether that be books, an internet connection, toys, whatever
20:06:50 <joepie91> <joepie91>a musical instrument
20:06:50 <joepie91> <joepie91>a games console
20:06:50 <joepie91> <joepie91>anything
20:06:50 <joepie91> <joepie91>providing resources
20:07:01 <lysobit> okay
20:07:04 <lysobit> so all of these things
20:07:04 <joepie91> anything that could conceivably be useful in learning things
20:07:14 <lysobit> including a "selection of books"
20:07:22 <lysobit> basically as many resources as you can give them?
20:07:36 <joepie91> pretty much, yes/
20:07:38 <joepie91> .*
20:08:30 <lysobit> then I don't think you understand how kids work
20:08:46 <joepie91> because?
20:09:21 <lysobit> kids value play over other types of learning
20:09:28 <lysobit> if you provide them a selection of say,
20:09:48 <lysobit> a games console, a musical instrument, and a bunch of books about quantum physics
20:09:57 <lysobit> what is the kid going to pick?
20:10:07 <lysobit> this is where teaching is useful, because it turns learning into play
20:10:31 <joepie91> let's assume - note the use of the word 'assume' there - that the kid is going to pick 'games console', as you seem to be implying
20:10:32 <joepie91> so what?
20:10:32 <lysobit> note that reading a book is not play-based learning
20:11:00 <lysobit> you seriously don't see the problem with that?
20:11:03 <lysobit> ok:
20:11:27 <lysobit> let's suppose I have a kid called, I dunno Bob
20:12:13 <lysobit> Bob could be a future genius physicist that somehow solves world hunger
20:13:02 <joepie91> (cayce: see https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=argure.nl - "BEAST attack No longer rated; considered sufficiently mitigated client-side")
20:13:36 <lysobit> but nope, he's just going to be a halo mod creater for the rest of his life because was no "play-based learning" on physics, or anyone teaching him physics
20:13:42 <lysobit> now my point is
20:13:43 <lysobit> by doing that
20:14:06 <lysobit> you're not unlocking people's potential (not that school doesn't do this either, but this is worse)
20:14:16 <lysobit> people's full potential* that is
20:14:39 <joepie91> lysobit: and exactly what are you basing this reasoning on?
20:14:44 <joepie91> because you just seem to be sketching a doom scenario now
20:14:48 <lysobit> which part of the reasoning?
20:15:06 <lysobit> it's an extreme example, yes.
20:15:12 <joepie91> yet not explaining why A. Bob wasn't interested in physics to begin with B. he was able to spend a whole life (!!!!) on creating halo mods
20:15:21 <lysobit> because
20:16:05 <lysobit> "Bob wasn't interested in physics to begin with"
20:16:16 <lysobit> Tell me an example where the source of the interest might come from
20:16:26 <lysobit> and I'll continue
20:16:33 <joepie91> uhm, from the society he's living in?
20:16:38 <lysobit> no
20:16:40 <lysobit> I said give me an example
20:16:47 <joepie91> that is the example
20:16:49 <lysobit> no
20:16:51 <lysobit> it's not
20:16:53 <joepie91> why do I know about Bitcoin when I was never taught about it in school?
20:16:54 <lysobit> I mean
20:16:58 <joepie91> yes, it is
20:17:08 <joepie91> I can make a list of possible sources but that would be madness
20:17:15 <joepie91> people - and yes, also kids - constantly pick up things from their environment
20:17:22 <joepie91> whether that is their living room or a random website doesn't matter even a shred
20:17:22 <lysobit> yes
20:17:23 <lysobit> exactly
20:17:25 <lysobit> give me 1 source
20:17:32 <lysobit> <joepie91> people - and yes, also kids - constantly pick up things from their environment
20:17:34 <joepie91> "a website"
20:17:35 <joepie91> happy now?
20:17:41 <lysobit> ok
20:17:53 <lysobit> what type of website?
20:18:07 <lysobit> and why might the child be on that website?
20:18:16 <joepie91> because that's how the internet works?
20:18:21 <lysobit> wat
20:18:23 <joepie91> or rather
20:18:23 <joepie91> the web
20:18:33 <joepie91> the whole damn concept of the www is to link together various websites
20:18:38 <joepie91> so that you can end up on previously unknown websites
20:18:39 <joepie91> through other websites
20:18:45 <joepie91> you understand this perfectly well
20:18:51 <joepie91> so I'm curious why you're even asking this
20:18:56 <joepie91> as it doesn't even seem relevant to the original point anymore
20:19:01 <lysobit> it is relevant
20:19:03 <lysobit> you'll see
20:19:06 <lysobit> just answer my questions
20:19:16 <lysobit> what type of website might this be?
20:19:35 <joepie91> lysobit: I have a feeling you are fishing for an example that you can make an individual case against without it being relevant to the point of "discovering from environment"
20:19:54 <joepie91> it doesn't matter
20:20:00 <joepie91> fill in anything for your own question
20:20:16 <lysobit> sight
20:20:23 <lysobit> let me skip to the point I was going to make then
20:20:39 <joepie91> by all means do so.
20:28:43 <lysobit> Kids favour certain types of activities than others, because that's how human development work. Generally most kids favour the same type of activity - play, because that is the most effective way for a young human being to learn, for some reason due to evolution. If a kid is simply fulfilling the desire to do this activity, and even if you've given him all the resources in the world to look
20:28:44 <lysobit> at, it is less likely for a child to happen to stumble upon something which piques his interest in something intellectual like physics or, I dunno, stem cell research. That is because in general, "play" activities are about social learning rather than academic learning. You could argue that there are certain play activities that could be introduced that are crafted to pique their interest
20:28:44 <lysobit> in something more academic - but that is what teaching at a younger level is. (Note: I am using the word "academic" loosely here, to refer to any subject that is non-social.)
20:29:30 <lysobit> anyway
20:29:35 <lysobit> I really need to eat
20:30:00 <joepie91> lysobit: I think you'll find that even in the current school system, physics are not introduced until a later point in development
20:30:06 <joepie91> which is a point where play is not automatically prefered
20:30:37 <lysobit> yes, in early school stages numeracy and language is taught first
20:30:49 <lysobit> through "play"
20:30:50 <joepie91> (and hey, perhaps physics should be introduced in a more playful manner! see also mathematicians lament)
20:31:10 <joepie91> lysobit: also
20:31:23 <joepie91> there is one thing that I have intentionally not mentioned
20:31:26 <joepie91> throughout this entire discussion
20:31:35 <joepie91> and that is that a school model as I described already exists
20:31:40 <joepie91> and is applied successfull
20:31:42 <joepie91> successfully *
20:35:11 <lysobit> well, I'm going to dinner now
20:35:44 <lysobit> but give me a link to this "school" or whatever and I'll see when I get back later
20:36:36 <joepie91> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awOAmTaZ4XI
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