Cryto! 30 July 2013
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00:53:37 <joepie91> guys
00:53:39 <joepie91> guess what
00:53:44 <joepie91> TreeSheets is now open-source! :D
00:53:45 <joepie91> http://treesheets.com/
00:53:50 <joepie91> https://github.com/aardappel/treesheets
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01:02:27 <mikaa> i would like prezi goes opensource someday too :9
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02:20:55 <why_slap_option> hello?
02:28:27 <Ari> hey
02:33:39 <why_slap_option> hi
02:33:54 <why_slap_option> are you good in pc stuff
02:53:58 <Ari> uh
02:54:00 <Ari> yeah i guess
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13:28:15 <norbert79> joepie91: Checked Treesheets... Nice!
13:28:29 <norbert79> joepie91: If works well it might replace Pnotes
13:28:31 <norbert79> for me
13:28:33 <joepie91> :D
13:29:49 <norbert79> Hmm, so it's like a sort of some XML or XHTML like solution?
13:31:37 <joepie91> no
13:31:43 <joepie91> it can export to XML though
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14:04:06 <HiveResearch> joepie91: i hope reality is being less retarded in your neck of the woods
14:09:58 <norbert79> joepie91: Checked the tool, I need to get use to it, that is for sure
14:18:46 <joepie91> norbert79: well yes, it works differently from pretty much everything else
14:18:49 <joepie91> I haven't seen anything alike it
14:18:52 <joepie91> but it's quite intuitive :P
14:19:01 <joepie91> (imo)
14:19:12 <joepie91> keybindings that make sense and such
14:19:44 <norbert79> Yeah, I just find it pity I can't use it like Pnote, so a nested notepad like application staying constantly on the screen
14:19:54 <norbert79> like how Pnotes works
14:20:43 <joepie91> there's probably a window manager hack for that :)
14:20:48 <joepie91> of some kind
14:21:14 <norbert79> nah, office lappy, can't really extend it
14:21:25 <norbert79> that's why I found Pnotes a blessing
14:21:35 <norbert79> otherwise it's useful
14:21:39 <norbert79> really
14:21:40 <joepie91> aha :P
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15:45:13 <joepie91> https://static.googleusercontent.com/external_content/untrusted_dlcp/www.itasoftware.com/en//pdf/ComplexityofArlineTravelPlanning_Carl_Sep-03.pdf
15:45:18 <joepie91> why is this shit so stupidly complex
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16:09:58 <joepie91> https://soundcloud.com/dubstep/nothing-at-all-by-time-flies
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17:03:56 <mikaa> yay im st0ked!
17:04:07 <mikaa> joepie91, the shop offers a reward
17:04:11 <mikaa> unbelievable
17:05:49 <mikaa> happy :)) ending
17:09:49 <joepie91> mikaa: congratulations :)
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17:19:27 <lady-3jane> halloes joepie91 :>
17:19:44 <joepie91> hai
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18:00:30 <dpk> pfft, *PUBLICALLY
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18:06:09 <lady-3jane> dpk:) you're a failed grammar nazi, nice!
18:06:27 <lady-3jane> publicly is the word :)
18:06:33 <dpk> i'm not a failed grammar nazi
18:06:47 <dpk> publically is an acceptable variant, and the only variant that makes sense
18:06:52 <dpk> would you use "basicly"?
18:07:05 <lady-3jane> no, and that's not a useful argument
18:07:08 <lady-3jane> why boxes not boxen?
18:07:14 <lady-3jane> english isn't supposed to make sense
18:07:14 <lady-3jane> :P
18:07:21 <dpk> because this isn't anglo-saxon any more
18:07:34 <lady-3jane> It's much more fluid than that
18:08:38 <dpk> "publicly" is a historical mistake of the 16th century which was corrected in 1797
18:08:51 <dpk> unfortunately news of this has yet to reach the ears of most people
18:09:08 <lady-3jane> wonderful, you can be the siren of that song
18:09:17 <dpk> i am being
18:09:26 <lady-3jane> until everyone else accepts that spelling, I'm going to continue spelling it correctly
18:09:33 <dpk> *incorrectly
18:09:41 <dpk> well, correctly. but illogically
18:09:48 <dpk> (note: not illogicly)
18:09:55 <lady-3jane> logic has very little to do with it
18:10:02 <lady-3jane> you're just pointing out inconsistencies in english
18:10:29 <lady-3jane> shall we take a jaunt through every other language too? they're all inconsistent
18:10:45 <dpk> i'm pointing out one inconsistency in English orthography
18:10:48 <dpk> there are many others
18:10:51 <dpk> but this one is mine
18:10:58 <lady-3jane> yeah okay
18:10:58 <lady-3jane> :P
18:11:04 <lady-3jane> boxes not boxen, I rest my case
18:11:11 * lady-3jane walks off
18:11:13 <dpk> and it's only hard to correct because people continute to insist that "publically" is incorrect
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18:11:29 <dpk> hello Ari, welcome to CrytoCC, a publically-logged channel
18:11:40 <lady-3jane> public-ally no
18:11:43 <Ari> wat
18:11:45 * lady-3jane grins
18:11:49 <Ari> why is there a joinbot?
18:11:56 <lady-3jane> he's not
18:12:01 <lady-3jane> he's a join asshat
18:12:01 <joepie91> haha
18:12:03 <joepie91> hai dpk
18:12:06 <Ari> lol
18:12:07 <lady-3jane> :>
18:12:07 <joepie91> and hai Ari :P
18:12:11 <Ari> dpk is human?
18:12:14 <lady-3jane> aye
18:12:15 <joepie91> yes, he is
18:12:23 <dpk> (theoretically, anyway)
18:12:30 <Ari> well
18:12:30 <Ari> hai der
18:12:52 <dpk> this is not the first time i've been mistaken for a join-welcoming automaton. though on this particular channel, it is the first time
18:13:03 <dpk> i am 100% humon
18:13:17 <Ari> well
18:13:21 <Ari> nice to meet you humon
18:13:26 <joepie91> dpk: then again, it's the first time you act like an automaton here!
18:13:41 <joepie91> :)
18:14:14 <dpk> 1797 in Catal. Prints: Polit. & Personal Satires (Brit. Mus.) (1942) VII. 328, I do not Consider myself accountable for them after thus publically Warning every Person.
18:14:24 <dpk> is first recorded use of the "publicly" spelling
18:14:29 <dpk> err, "publically" even
18:14:35 <dpk> according to the OED
18:14:44 <dpk> publicly: 1559 in P. F. Tytler Hist. Scotl. (1864) III. 391 Their minister shall have full liberty..to ministrate the sacraments, publicly and privately.
18:15:18 <dpk> ("publictlie", a Middle English-ism was used in 1534)
18:15:32 <dpk> man i love tafting the OED
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18:58:18 <Ari> wat
18:58:25 <Ari> does [off] work with /me?
18:59:02 <Ari> yes.
18:59:03 <Ari> yes it does.
19:07:29 <joepie91> lol, wow
19:07:31 <joepie91> "Obscene language offends both children and adults. A ban on its use is not an infringement of human rights. This is a direction towards a civilized lifestyle. If we do not use foul language in real life, then why do we use it on the Internet? Deputy Mizulina calls to protect vulnerable layers of the population - particularly children. I think that this initiative should be supported," the lawyer told Pravda.Ru.
19:07:41 <joepie91> http://english.pravda.ru/society/family/26-07-2013/125277-foul_language-0/
19:10:15 <snowy> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM
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19:23:20 <monod> oh wow
19:23:36 <monod> it looks weird, but it works :D
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19:38:24 <joepie91> hey uh, dpk, look what I found: http://gtfs.ovapi.nl/
19:38:49 <joepie91> transit data for -all- Dutch transport companies
19:38:57 <dpk> oh, wow
19:39:02 <joepie91> and some Belgian ones also, it seems
19:39:05 <joepie91> De Lijn is Belgian
19:39:13 <joepie91> and there's a few I don't recognize
19:39:31 <joepie91> look what else I found: http://www.gtfs-data-exchange.com/
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19:40:30 <joepie91> in particular, http://www.gtfs-data-exchange.com/agencies
19:41:01 <joepie91> London being notably absent
19:41:05 <joepie91> (of course)
19:42:01 <joepie91> bunch of US and Australia data: https://code.google.com/p/googletransitdatafeed/wiki/PublicFeedsNonGTFS
19:42:26 <joepie91> oh hey, also some London stuff linked
19:42:35 <joepie91> and some other countries it seems...
19:43:39 <joepie91> https://github.com/OneBusAway/onebusaway-uk
19:44:43 <joepie91> https://code.google.com/p/googletransitdatafeed/wiki/LondonConvertScript
19:44:49 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
19:44:49 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-07-30#T19-44-49
19:45:07 <joepie91> dpk, see ^
19:45:27 <dpk> nice
19:45:34 <joepie91> for NL stuff: http://9292opendata.org/datacollecties
19:45:44 <joepie91> which is the organization that wrote the actual 9292 planner
19:45:50 <joepie91> looks like NL got their shit in order
19:45:51 <joepie91> heh
19:45:53 <joepie91> for once
19:53:48 <monod> 110 WPM / 99.6% accuracy, YAY!
19:57:04 <zxcvbnm> err
19:57:07 * zxcvbnm bangs out 143 on the reg
19:57:31 <monod> 143 wpm??
19:57:36 <zxcvbnm> yesssir
19:57:39 <zxcvbnm> my top is 156
19:57:40 <monod> monstar
19:57:43 <zxcvbnm> but that was when i was a kid
19:57:47 <zxcvbnm> i'm slow now
19:57:57 <monod> what does "on the reg" mean?
19:58:02 <zxcvbnm> on the regular.. i was just being stupid
19:58:03 <zxcvbnm> :)
19:58:09 <monod> hahahaha
19:58:13 <monod> lulz
19:58:15 <zxcvbnm> its american slang
19:58:22 <monod> murican
19:58:25 <zxcvbnm> yessir
19:59:29 <monod> in the aptitude repo there's a program called typespeed
19:59:44 <monod> it also allows for multiplayer head-on-head match
19:59:48 <zxcvbnm> oh really
19:59:51 <monod> yeah
19:59:53 <zxcvbnm> that is awesome
19:59:55 <monod> :D
19:59:59 <monod> the only thing
20:00:04 <zxcvbnm> is you have to get aptitude ?
20:00:15 <monod> err
20:00:23 <monod> maybe it's debian's repo
20:00:34 <monod> then, also ubuntu
20:00:40 <monod> but don't know for the others
20:00:56 <monod> the only thing is that you don't write sentences, but just words scrolling the window
20:01:03 <monod> which is frenetic :S
20:03:26 <joepie91> is there something that counts your words per minute during normal typing?
20:03:32 <joepie91> so not copying over given sentences and such
20:03:38 <joepie91> just your normal typing in whatever applications you normally use
20:04:11 <Ari> how would that detect pauses? :T
20:04:21 <joepie91> why would it have to?
20:04:24 <joepie91> it can just keep a rolling average
20:04:26 <joepie91> and display it
20:04:26 <joepie91> :P
20:04:36 <Ari> eh, I guess
20:04:40 <Ari> but then what if you AFK for an hour?
20:05:05 <monod> it could also pause when idle for 5-6 seconds, which clearly is not when someone's typing
20:05:18 <monod> aaaaand, nope, haven't heard of it already, joepie91
20:05:28 <joepie91> uhm, dpk
20:05:31 <joepie91> someone just pointed me at this
20:05:33 <joepie91> http://www.travelinedata.org.uk/datausers.htm
20:06:15 <dpk> hmm
20:06:37 <joepie91> I mean, Traveline isn't -entirely- complete
20:06:40 <joepie91> but they have a serious dataset
20:06:43 * dpk nods
20:06:51 <joepie91> and are generally the go-to planner
20:07:01 <joepie91> as far as I can determine
20:08:19 <joepie91> also, I'm considering experimenting with the 9292 dataset
20:08:21 <joepie91> to learn how2planner
20:08:36 <joepie91> already have an idea for an algo
20:10:50 <monod> spam-off-topic: try this on conky: update_interval 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
20:10:51 <monod> haha
20:11:06 <monod> my cpu went up 5°C
20:11:21 <monod> (the default value for that was... 1)
20:11:37 <dpk> joepie91: when i did this for the Manchester buses only, i used A*. do not use A*
20:11:42 <dpk> use Dijkstra's
20:11:57 <dpk> and don't forget to account for the fact that people can walk between bus stops etc.
20:12:34 <joepie91> A*?
20:12:34 <monod> what are you up to dpk?
20:12:37 <zxcvbnm> https://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/07/mail-from-the-velvet-cybercrime-underground/
20:12:40 <joepie91> note that I haven't researched any of these algos at all
20:12:42 <joepie91> whatsoever
20:12:42 <zxcvbnm> funny
20:12:51 <dpk> A* is http://www.policyalmanac.org/games/aStarTutorial.htm
20:12:52 <joepie91> I just thought of "how would one figure out how to get from A to B"
20:12:53 <joepie91> blank slate
20:13:09 <dpk> Dijkstra's is … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra's_algorithm
20:13:37 <joepie91> dpk: I see, thanks.
20:13:53 <joepie91> the thing is, it's possible in the UK to have different routes with a different cost, right?
20:13:57 <joepie91> because of different companies
20:13:59 <dpk> yeah
20:14:07 <joepie91> I don't want to necessarily find the shortest route
20:14:13 <joepie91> sometimes also the cheapest reasonable route
20:14:16 <dpk> yeah
20:14:24 <joepie91> and Dijkstra's doesn't seem to account for that
20:14:28 <dpk> well, you can weight it by different factors
20:14:36 <monod> Dijkstra does
20:14:43 <monod> ^ ^
20:14:52 <dpk> the one you want is 1: travel time and 2: travel cost
20:14:52 <joepie91> though, how would I weight it in such a way?
20:15:10 <monod> this is crucial
20:15:13 <joepie91> especially taking into account things like starting tariffs
20:15:56 <dpk> well, weighting edges by two factors is a lot more complicated than weighting by one
20:16:02 <monod> iirc, Dijkstra founds the most convenient path, given a weigthed graph
20:16:05 <monod> exactly
20:16:25 <dpk> so you should probably start with travel-time-in-minutes as the basic weight
20:16:25 <monod> that's the point: you have to find a way to combine every information into one number, a coefficient
20:16:40 <monod> hmm
20:16:43 <dpk> then weight that with cost
20:16:51 <monod> km/€ might be an idea :P
20:16:59 <joepie91> dpk: the question here is, how would I weight it with cost if I have to take into account a flat start tariff?
20:17:00 <dpk> hmm, yes
20:17:06 <joepie91> ie one company may charge less per mile
20:17:13 <joepie91> but have a base tariff
20:17:20 <joepie91> whereas another company charges more by the mile, but doesn't have a base tariff
20:17:30 <joepie91> the problem is that the starting tariff is not variable
20:17:36 <joepie91> therefore it's not a per-mile weight
20:17:37 <monod> base tariff == fixed starting cost?
20:17:45 <joepie91> and you can't calculate it relatively towards the total trip cost either
20:17:49 <joepie91> because you don't know the length of the trip yet
20:17:52 <joepie91> while calculating
20:17:57 <joepie91> monod: yes
20:18:26 <monod> fixed starting cost that covers X miles?
20:18:34 <joepie91> no
20:18:38 <joepie91> for example
20:18:44 <joepie91> you have company A and company B
20:18:56 <joepie91> company A charges you a fixed cost of 2 euro, plus 50 cents per mile
20:19:02 <joepie91> company B charges you no fixed cost, but 75 cents per mile
20:19:05 <joepie91> (hypothetically)
20:19:12 <monod> ok, the idea
20:19:18 <monod> well...
20:19:22 <joepie91> for company A, the cost is (2 + (distance * 0.50))
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20:19:28 <joepie91> for company B, the cost is (distance * 0.75)
20:19:50 <monod> clearly <1 miles paths are conveninent with company A
20:19:54 <monod> all <1 miles paths
20:21:35 <joepie91> yes, but that's not useful information when you're trying to weight distance
20:21:35 <monod> if are there time estimatinos for the travels, you could also take a look at €/sec
20:22:18 <monod> anyway, the point is to travel with minimum cost and time ?
20:23:00 <monod> anything else?
20:23:39 <monod> (even if I don't know what are you up to, it's entertaining to be at work with something I'm studying at university :D)
20:23:49 <monod> (that is: be able to project)
20:24:03 <monod> (that's why there is not so much programming.. :( )
20:24:04 <joepie91> hm, true, the point is to travel fastest, not shortest distance
20:24:13 <joepie91> the cost is distance-based though
20:24:15 <joepie91> :/
20:24:21 <dpk> yeah, weight by travel time, not by distance
20:24:22 <joepie91> argh, complicated
20:24:31 <joepie91> dpk: the problem is that you're not billed by travel time
20:24:33 <monod> ok, plus eventually additional base tariff
20:24:38 <monod> hahahah
20:24:40 <monod> that's great
20:24:48 <monod> haven't thought about it xDD
20:24:50 <joepie91> I'm really tempted to just try out my own algo
20:24:50 <joepie91> lol
20:24:52 <dpk> joepie91: i would suggest ignoring cost entirely to begin with
20:24:58 <monod> noooo
20:25:02 <dpk> it's easy enough to change the weighting later
20:25:06 <monod> you CAN ignoe time then!! :D
20:25:07 <joepie91> since it takes this into account
20:25:12 <monod> if it does not add to the cost
20:25:14 <dpk> provided you don't be idiot
20:25:22 <monod> ignore*
20:25:39 <joepie91> dpk: I have no idea how, though
20:25:40 <joepie91> :p
20:26:11 <dpk> example of why travel time is better weight than distance: it takes 1h30 by train from C'roe to Manchester (30 miles) and 2h15 Manchester to London (170 miles or something)
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20:26:32 <joepie91> dpk: again, the problem is that cost is not based on time
20:26:42 <joepie91> so if you're trying to take into account cost by weighting stuff
20:26:44 <dpk> yeah, but i'm saying: ignore cost entirely
20:26:47 <joepie91> you're going to be weighting distance
20:26:53 <joepie91> well, the point is kind of to have proper pricing info
20:26:55 <dpk> to start with
20:27:02 <dpk> no, ignore cost as part of pathfinding
20:27:03 <joepie91> then it'll be hell to add it later :P
20:27:06 <dpk> you can still show the price
20:27:07 <dpk> no it won't
20:27:11 <dpk> as long as you have the data
20:27:17 <monod> hehe
20:27:22 <joepie91> the problem is taking it into account during pathfinding
20:27:22 <monod> "you can still show the price"
20:27:41 <dpk> if you abstract the "find weight" part of the pathfinder you can easily change it to account for cost later
20:28:05 <monod> I didn't understand what the problem is, and I have 2 minutes
20:28:12 <monod> before trying to go to sleep
20:28:15 <monod> (:()
20:28:19 <dpk> monod: public transport route search
20:28:24 <monod> not that
20:28:26 <monod> I mean:
20:29:01 <monod> what's the criteria of your pathfinding? The cheaper travel from A to B?
20:29:12 <monod> but also
20:29:16 <dpk> "best"
20:29:17 <joepie91> monod; you should be able to pick between 'fastest' and 'cheapest'
20:29:36 <dpk> joepie91: i think you shouldn't have to pick, it should automatically make a good compromise
20:29:38 <joepie91> perhaps an 'optimal' option also that tries to be inbetween them
20:29:43 <dpk> right, exactly
20:29:55 <joepie91> but that's trivial when you have fastness/cheapness info
20:30:00 <monod> joepie91, fastest and cheapest... hmm. dpk, "best" has to be defined by us/you
20:30:16 <dpk> yeah, best is a compromise between speed and cost
20:30:17 <monod> fastest and cheapest have just one weigth each
20:30:26 <monod> and
20:31:26 <monod> "<dpk> yeah, best is a compromise between speed and cost" and we goddamn have to consider distance while considering cost, BUT... in some way, the cost provided by companies already incapsules the "distance" information since companies already taxes according to distance, in some way
20:31:27 <monod> yes?
20:31:50 <monod> and we goddamn have to consider distance while considering distance*
20:32:06 <monod> aaand, that phrase could just be erased, if it's true what I've concluded
20:32:47 <monod> finally
20:33:15 <dpk> right, but it might be cheaper but a bit slower to take a bus than a train in one case. if the train costs £15 and takes 1h and the bus costs £10 and takes 1h10m i think the bus is the better option
20:33:28 <dpk> (⬑ hypothetical scenario)
20:34:01 <monod> (arriving to that, writing at 28 wpm :D)
20:34:26 <dpk> oh, haha
20:34:35 <dpk> i just thought of a way to combine time and money factors
20:34:39 <dpk> put a price on people's time :D
20:34:46 <dpk> even better, let them put a price on their time
20:35:01 <dpk> (stretching from minimum wage to banker's bonus salary?)
20:35:11 <monod> that does not change
20:35:12 <monod> I mean
20:35:20 <monod> if you choose to tax A's time
20:35:24 <monod> 5$ /s
20:35:28 <monod> or 10$ /s
20:35:34 <monod> it's like the same
20:35:38 <monod> I mean
20:35:43 <monod> those prices are the same
20:35:57 <monod> because all the times are being multiplied by that number
20:36:02 <monod> I think
20:36:58 <monod> back to what I said, here's the continuum: since I can't imagine such a pathfinder algorithm like Dijkstra to be able to find the second-best, the third-best, etc, but only the first-best, in order to find the best/optimal solution you have to definitely change weigths, that is: you have to create a new definition of weight, starting with speedness and cheapness
20:37:12 <monod> haha, fastness*
20:37:15 <dpk> right, exactly
20:37:20 <dpk> speediness
20:37:21 <monod> so imagine this:
20:37:24 <monod> oh yeah
20:37:26 <monod> thanks
20:37:30 <monod> speediness*
20:37:34 <monod> so imagine this:
20:37:35 <dpk> that's the whole point of the weight factor in pathfinding
20:37:37 <monod> then I will go
20:37:45 <dpk> you can change it to alter the properties of the route that will be found
20:37:46 <monod> what is the BEST BEST ULTRA BEST?
20:37:58 <monod> (just to make it easier..)
20:38:12 <monod> something that costs very low and it's really fast
20:38:23 <monod> imagine you have this travel in 12s and for 1€
20:38:26 <monod> or
20:38:35 <monod> 1/5 minutes and 1€
20:38:44 <monod> I don't know if you see already
20:38:59 <monod> you might just multiply cost and time together
20:39:09 <monod> as a raw starting point
20:39:33 <monod> and, of course, the best path is that with lowest time*cost value
20:39:45 <dpk> oh, right
20:39:46 <monod> because you want the lower time and cost
20:39:48 <dpk> that could work
20:39:52 <monod> yeah but
20:39:59 <monod> since multiplication *is* commutative
20:40:07 <dpk> i think putting a price on people's time is plusfunner though
20:40:13 <monod> hahaha
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20:40:36 <monod> by this raw starting point you get that two travel are equally good if they have the same time*cost value
20:40:42 <monod> I don't know if this is true in real life ;)
20:40:45 <monod> you just have to verify
20:40:59 <monod> I think you have to do it by examples perhaps
20:41:07 <joepie91> using a modification to Dijkstra's algorithm it should be possible to determine multiple routes
20:41:15 <joepie91> I'm just not sure how to go about it
20:41:20 <monod> interesting
20:41:22 <monod> you mean:
20:41:28 <joepie91> you'd have to, in some way, determine when it would be reasonable to "revisit" a node
20:41:28 <monod> second-best, third-best, etc?
20:41:31 <joepie91> that has already been visited
20:41:33 <joepie91> through another route
20:41:40 <dpk> oh, wait
20:41:47 <dpk> i just understood what joepie91 was on about
20:41:48 <dpk> hah
20:41:48 <dpk> right
20:41:54 <dpk> hmm, that's a tricky problem
20:41:56 <joepie91> if you do that, and keep track of separate routes and their distances...
20:41:56 <monod> gotta go now
20:41:59 <joepie91> that should work
20:42:00 <monod> or, 8 minutes ago xD
20:42:08 <joepie91> the problem is - what should the criteria for revisiting be?
20:42:11 <joepie91> okay, talk to you later monod :)
20:42:32 <monod> "the problem is - what should the criteria for revisiting be?" that was the problem I saw in the second-best, third-best thing
20:42:40 <monod> ttyl guyz!
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20:45:40 <joepie91> dpk: hard problems!
20:45:42 <joepie91> :)
20:46:10 <dpk> well, it's not *that* hard except in terms of keeping it efficient and not accidentally all the memory
20:47:10 <joepie91> heh
20:47:25 <joepie91> see, and this is the reason I want to use 0mq
20:47:36 <joepie91> so that I can just arbitrarily spin up another box somewhere that can do calculations
20:47:55 <joepie91> without having to implement all the fallover or distribution logic myself :P
20:48:08 <dpk> you could use ITA's approach. ITA had an article once which explained how they make their flight search so efficient: one of the tricks was (they used Common Lisp) they preallocated all their conses and pulled them out of an array as needed. if the search used more than 1000000 conses they came back with "Sorry, couldn't find any flights …"
20:48:33 <joepie91> I have no doubt that any modification of Dijkstra's algo would be less efficient than the original
20:48:41 <joepie91> dpk: conses?
20:48:59 <dpk> yeah, i'm not sure how Dijkstra's does on maintaining state that's dependent on the visiting of previous nodes
20:49:02 <dpk> i'm guessing terribly
20:49:08 <joepie91> I'm guessing not at all
20:49:13 <joepie91> from what I've read on wikipedia
20:49:13 <joepie91> :P
20:49:20 <dpk> joepie91: Lisp's basic data structures, pairs of pointers
20:49:22 <joepie91> it's pretty stateless
20:49:26 <joepie91> .. right?
20:49:32 <dpk> yeah, i think
20:49:38 <joepie91> if you had to replace 'conses' with non-lisp terminology, what would you say?
20:49:40 <dpk> well, it might not me
20:49:43 <joepie91> in the context of that ITA thing
20:49:45 <dpk> err, objects
20:49:58 <dpk> pre-initialization allocated classes
20:49:58 <joepie91> right, but I still don't understand where the optimization is
20:50:05 <joepie91> what exactly did they preallocate and why?
20:51:05 <dpk> well, it fixed the amount of memory they could use to search. because "creating" a cons (an object) would not actually allocate any new memory, it would just pull one out that was already ready to be initialized, and once used got thrown away
20:51:12 <dpk> it's a pretty evil hack
20:51:26 <joepie91> it makes no sense to me, but perhaps that's because I'm not a Lisp programmer
20:51:26 <joepie91> :P
20:51:30 <dpk> heh
20:51:57 <dpk> i think Dijkstra's could actually handle the cost calculation for this, if you did it right
20:53:06 <dpk> argh, i can't think
20:54:35 <lady-3jane> since you're doing fastest OR cheapest it's not hard... calculate fastest path (ignoring cost), then when you want to rank by cheapest calculate the cost of each path and re-order the list
20:54:45 <lady-3jane> then you've got all the times and miles and you just tack price on
20:55:18 <lady-3jane> you can even give all that data to the client and cache it for a time if you like
20:55:58 <joepie91> lady-3jane: and how do you find the 'optimal' route?
20:56:05 <joepie91> ie. reasonable cost-time trade-off
20:56:18 <joepie91> additionally, how do you take into account base tariffs?
20:56:55 <dpk> joepie91: oh. you can include the base fare as part of the initial penalty for taking a certain route
20:56:57 <dpk> that's it
20:57:01 <dpk> you don't need to do anything else
20:57:08 <joepie91> how?
20:58:00 <joepie91> and that introduces a new issue: how do you deal with company/line switches?
20:58:05 <dpk> well, if you get on a bus and the base fare is £2 plus 10p more per mile, you only need to include the £2 on boarding the bus, and 10p for each mile travelled thereafter
20:58:23 <dpk> joepie91: um, same way you deal with any other switch. they all stop at the same stations and so on
20:58:38 <joepie91> so how do you detect that you switch lines, ie. have to pay base fare again?
20:58:39 <lady-3jane> stop blending the weights
20:58:45 <dpk> as identified in NAPTHA or whatever it's called
20:58:53 <dpk> lady-3jane: hmm?
20:59:22 <lady-3jane> he's blending the weights. he said earlier fastest OR cheapest
20:59:39 <lady-3jane> fastest is not cheapest
20:59:42 <dpk> lady-3jane: right, we want a good compromise between speed and price
21:00:28 <lady-3jane> right, but that isn't what he asked for
21:00:37 <lady-3jane> maybe that's what he wants?
21:01:06 <lady-3jane> what sort of travel system is it
21:01:13 <joepie91> completely unrelated, lolwtf: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=57.596471&lon=-13.687846&zoom=18&layers=M
21:01:15 <lady-3jane> that'll determine if you want to weight price or time first
21:01:17 <joepie91> Rockall consists of fuckall
21:01:29 <dpk> joepie91: Rockall?
21:01:38 <dpk> yeah, these be the British Isles
21:01:41 <joepie91> dpk: apparently a patch of something that has magically appeared in the sea
21:01:42 <dpk> (we have a lot of isles)
21:01:52 <joepie91> the damn thing is 15x15 meters
21:01:52 <joepie91> rofl
21:02:09 <dpk> .wik Rockall
21:02:10 <botpie91> "Rockall (Irish: Rocal, Scottish Gaelic: Rocabarraigh) is a small, uninhabited, remote rocky islet in the North Atlantic Ocean." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockall
21:02:23 <joepie91> it's just really funny because http://openstreetmap.org/?lat=57.41&lon=-14.27&zoom=7&layers=M
21:05:06 <joepie91> anyway, lady-3jane
21:05:15 <joepie91> the idea is to build a public transit trip planning system for the UK
21:05:24 <joepie91> based on whatever nuts and bolts worth of data can be cobbled together
21:05:38 <dpk> ugh, fucking OSM is so hideous and noisy
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21:05:54 <joepie91> it should offer options for "fastest", "cheapest", and "optimal" (ie. reasonable trade-off between speed and cost, middle ground)
21:06:05 <joepie91> dpk: actually the UX has improved massively since I last used it
21:06:12 <joepie91> the map theme is a bit bleh, though
21:06:17 <dpk> yeah, but the maps are still butt-ugly
21:06:34 <dpk> if they could solve their aesthetics problem they might start seriously taking market share from Google Reader
21:06:49 <dpk> *Maps
21:06:57 <dpk> qwertyal aphasia, sigh
21:08:17 <dpk> i complained about OSM's looks recently here also: http://swhack.com/logs/2013-07-20#T14-17-07
21:09:27 <joepie91> well, that's a particularly disastrous example
21:10:03 <joepie91> honestly
21:10:08 <joepie91> I think the main problem with OSM
21:10:16 <joepie91> is that half their colours are far too birhgt
21:10:19 <joepie91> bright *
21:10:27 <joepie91> it causes a bit of a geocities effect
21:10:29 <dpk> it's not just their colours
21:10:43 <dpk> it's that there's too much information at some zoom levels
21:10:44 <joepie91> the colours are a serious part of it though
21:10:47 <dpk> yeah
21:10:55 <joepie91> just changing the colours would already make it immensely more usable
21:10:59 <joepie91> with fairly little effort
21:11:18 <joepie91> ie. someone needs to tell them that "high contrast" is an option for people with visual disability, not a default...
21:11:22 <dpk> and the lines are too thick in many cases. in the SF example i linked there, you would think that the whole of SOMA is one big paved area
21:11:53 <dpk> MapBox offers nicer-looking OSM maps with some customization, but O joy, one must pay to embed them
21:12:08 <dpk> (https://tiles.mapbox.com/newmap#3/0.09/-0.09)
21:13:24 <joepie91> yeah, those are pretty nice
21:13:34 <joepie91> primarily because subtle colors
21:14:04 <joepie91> hum.
21:14:13 <joepie91> what's the relationship between OSM and MapBox?
21:14:25 <dpk> another problem with OSM is that roads bends, and the edges of things, still look rather jaggy, even on mapbox. i suspect that just applying basic rounding to corners depending on their acuteness would help
21:14:38 <joepie91> also https://github.com/mapbox
21:14:54 <dpk> MapBox is a company that provides nicelooking map embed things using OSM data with their own styling
21:15:10 <joepie91> they've contributed to the OSM map editor, though
21:15:15 * dpk nods
21:15:20 <joepie91> which makes me wonder whether it's the commercial arm of OSM
21:15:23 <joepie91> or just a cooperative entity
21:15:26 <dpk> yeah, they've put a lot of stuff in open-source
21:15:48 <dpk> like Leaflet, which is replacing OpenLayers as the go-to OSM embed tool afaict
21:22:34 <joepie91> dpk: well, this is a bit worrying: http://data.gov.uk/comment/get/ff93ffc1-6656-47d8-9155-85ea0b8f2251#comment-41521
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21:22:44 <dpk> ahaha
21:22:53 <joepie91> lol
21:23:00 <joepie91> "In the rail stations csv file, Eastbourne appears to be in the middle of the North Sea."
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