Cryto! 17 November 2013
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00:18:09 <iceTwy> complex: I'm ashamed of myself; never learned to play chess
00:20:55 <complex> happens that one dude in norway is fighting to win the world championship in chess at the moment. he got remis with gary kasparov when he was 13 and all the biggest newspapers are streaming his matches live now. its very cool that norway as a nation such a big interest in a genius and child prodigy
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00:34:25 <pzuraq> .bitcoin
00:34:26 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $438.00, 1 BTC = €344.88
00:34:41 <pzuraq> holy fuck why didn't I invest when it was $100 each
00:35:00 <pzuraq> why didn't I invest when it was $5 each
00:35:09 <pzuraq> you guys think they'll keep going up?
00:35:39 <ElectRo`> who knows at this point
00:35:45 <ElectRo`> just enjoy the roller coaster ride
00:36:12 <pzuraq> If I had any Bitcoins I would :/ I'm just watching
00:36:23 <pzuraq> and it seems like a lot of fun
00:39:00 <joepie91> pzuraq: http://falkvinge.net/2013/03/06/the-target-value-for-bitcoin-is-not-some-50-or-100-it-is-100000-to-1000000/
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00:49:31 <pzuraq> makes sense, as the number of bitcoins is stable and they are infinitely subdivisible
00:51:19 <pzuraq> I think Imma boy a couple bitcoins
00:51:22 <pzuraq> buy*
00:52:08 <pzuraq> joepie91: You read this? https://medium.com/ladybits-on-medium/d23a0d2f7697
00:52:15 <pzuraq> amazing article
01:03:25 <joepie91> mm..
01:07:18 <pzuraq> the term "context collapse" is just brilliant to me
01:07:50 <pzuraq> it explains SO much of the 21st century's issues
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02:35:11 <joepie91> http://cryto.net/destructomatch/
02:35:20 <joepie91> long-standing game over bug finally fixed :D
02:46:03 <cayce> pzuraq:) :D I love quinn's writings :>
02:46:44 <cayce> j'ai retourné :D
02:59:01 <cayce> joepie91:) you should shame dynadot >_>
02:59:10 <joepie91> cayce: oh, absolutely
03:01:18 <cayce> I'm waiting to see which jurisdiction makes themselves most adversarial with US law so I can buy a domain there and pay for email
03:01:19 <cayce> heh
03:05:46 <pzuraq> cayce: This is the first I've read from her, but it is refreshingly insughtful
03:05:53 <pzuraq> insightful*
03:06:13 <cayce> ahh, I've been reading her stuff when I can find it for a couple years now
03:06:30 <cayce> always fun, and usually smart (not smart like intelligent, smart like on-point)
03:09:38 <pzuraq> indeed. Also pretty intelligent in this case, this article blew my mind.
03:09:59 <pzuraq> Also, I'm getting into Twitter wore finally, starting to see how it workss
03:10:15 <pzuraq> think it's my favorite social network now
03:10:25 <cayce> :)
03:10:34 <cayce> "Welcome to the flock" ;)
03:12:03 <pzuraq> it's great
03:12:09 <pzuraq> public text messaging
03:12:20 <cayce> yup
03:12:32 <cayce> I love it because it's almost flat, socially
03:12:53 <cayce> I can yell at idiots and dignitaries in the same tweet
03:13:11 <cayce> (he he heh, not necessarily different people)
03:13:45 <pzuraq> at first I didn't see the utility, but as time goes on it makes more and more sense. There's a lot less danger in giving out a public text address than a phone number, so to speak, because people realize that their twitter account is being watched by a lot more people
03:14:16 <cayce> da
03:14:32 <cayce> I give out a nick, an email, and my twitter handle on my business cards. nothing else
03:14:36 <pzuraq> sure, some people troll behind the veil of anonymity, but it's still less likely to provoke harassment than publishing a phone number on 4chan
03:14:54 <pzuraq> good shit, think I'll start doing that :)
03:15:06 <pzuraq> well, website, email, twitter handle
03:15:12 <cayce> (the nick most associated with my legal name, to be exact)
03:15:20 <pzuraq> yeah
03:15:21 <pzuraq> same
03:15:24 <cayce> website is in your email
03:15:24 <cayce> :P
03:15:34 <pzuraq> ah good point
03:15:40 <cayce> (cleverly disguised)
03:15:40 <pzuraq> this handle is basically my internet presence
03:15:47 <pzuraq> search it on google, all me
03:15:51 <cayce> yep
03:16:24 <pzuraq> I need a more anon nick, planning on decoupling it from myself by connecting to services with it only through a VPN
03:16:34 * cayce nods
03:16:52 <cayce> I just use random names wherever I want a little separation
03:17:00 <cayce> it's not real separation, and I don't enforce it, but it's one more hurdle
03:17:25 <cayce> it's an idiot barrier, not a hurdle to a real adversary
03:17:35 <pzuraq> lol
03:17:36 <pzuraq> truth
03:17:50 <pzuraq> I would like a way to be completely anon though
03:17:56 * cayce nods
03:18:14 <pzuraq> that's hard, given the way people/sites can store so much info about your computer now
03:18:25 <cayce> when I get a new pc in a year or three I'm going to have some shit set up for that
03:18:49 <pzuraq> get a VPN client, then set it up so that some scripts run whenever you connect through the VPN
03:18:57 <cayce> but by that time hopefully I'll have an income
03:19:03 <cayce> if I have an income, I'll be meshing
03:19:04 <cayce> :)
03:19:38 <pzuraq> scripts would work connect all your clients/services to alternative accounts that are only used through the VPN
03:19:53 * cayce nods
03:19:58 <pzuraq> so twitter app switches accounts, IRC, jabber, etc
03:20:20 <pzuraq> if you could do a bit more, such as switch primary browser, that would be ideal
03:20:32 * cayce nods
03:20:33 <pzuraq> use firefox instead of chrome ;)
03:20:52 <cayce> lmao :)
03:21:00 <cayce> I switch between em as it is
03:22:30 <pzuraq> now here's a question
03:23:02 <pzuraq> can someone tell you are connecting to a given machine when you connect to a VPN? Likewise for SSH and SFTP?
03:23:14 <cayce> hmm?
03:23:24 <pzuraq> If so they can link you to that machine, then link your alternate persona to you
03:23:24 <cayce> like, can your vpn session be seen?
03:23:40 <cayce> if there are billing details involved, the answer will always be yes
03:23:58 <pzuraq> moreso can data be seen traveling between you and that server?
03:24:25 <cayce> well, it's traffic, so yes
03:24:34 <pzuraq> hmm :/
03:24:42 <cayce> optimistically it can't be decrypted, but the traffic can be seen
03:24:56 <pzuraq> that's a fatal flaw in the whole setup
03:24:57 <cayce> I'd want to check on openvpn about which ciphers it can use
03:25:10 <cayce> cause iirc it used to only support the ones with flaws
03:25:45 <pzuraq> yeah, i'm assuming the data can't be decrypted. If it can we are in a whole different ballpark.
03:25:54 <pzuraq> And I'm sure much of it can.
03:26:13 <cayce> then yeah, just like any packet flow, a sufficiently knowledgeable adversary can see it (see: intelligence agencies)
03:26:59 <pzuraq> ok, so how could you disconnect yourself from the alternate you (from now on, persona) as much as possible?
03:27:11 <pzuraq> one idea is to spread blame
03:27:17 <cayce> optimistically assuming it can't be decrypted, packets can always be seen travelling from pc to vpn terminator, and out. just like tor, if the traffic isn't encrypted going out it can be seen by anyone
03:27:48 <cayce> building a persona is a different thing, but that's what you'd do
03:27:56 <cayce> also, tor is good there
03:28:03 <cayce> I forget, I think you tor into the vpn
03:28:14 <cayce> (so the vpn tunnel runs over tor)
03:28:29 <pzuraq> how does tor work?
03:28:35 <cayce> ha ha go read the docs
03:29:02 <pzuraq> fair unough :p
03:29:10 <pzuraq> maybe that's the piece I'm missing
03:29:23 <cayce> it's a big long thing, but essentially your shit is encrypted inside tor (still vulnerable at the exit node), and what you get is source disattribution
03:29:56 <cayce> which is to say, your exit node probably can't tell where you are (assuming data stream is encrypted)
03:30:17 <pzuraq> mmk
03:30:47 <pzuraq> this helps, again, but I feel it still can be traceable if one were to create a full alternate persona
03:30:49 <cayce> (the encryption keeps them from knowing WHO you are. it's no less important here)
03:30:55 <cayce> probably
03:31:04 <cayce> if your threat model is the NSA, you're probably boned for that
03:31:06 <pzuraq> so it would be best to instead have many different micropersona's
03:31:13 <pzuraq> one for each service
03:31:16 <pzuraq> lol
03:31:29 <cayce> but if you have a different threat model, you would mitigate the issues it presents
03:31:30 <cayce> lol
03:31:41 <cayce> (important: have a threat model)
03:32:26 <pzuraq> my threat model is whatever the greatest possible threat is :P so it's the NSA, not because I particularly want to hide from them so much as because I want to find an impermeable way to remain anonymous
03:32:36 <pzuraq> cause I like solving hard problems :)
03:33:59 <cayce> bon chance, then lol
03:34:15 <cayce> that problem is why people are building internet alternatives right now
03:34:16 <cayce> lol
03:34:26 <cayce> current system doesn't do that, and wasn't ever meant to
03:39:22 <pzuraq> true I guess
03:39:34 <pzuraq> still it's nice to push the limit
03:39:56 <pzuraq> what is are the most promising alternatives that are being proposed?
03:43:21 <cayce> I dunno, the only one I'm involved with at all is cjdns. stuff within tor is pretty good, but tor itself suffers from some centralization problems
03:54:52 <pzuraq> ooh
03:54:56 <pzuraq> interesting
03:55:25 <pzuraq> IPv6 has had me very worried as it will take away a huge amount of anonymity
03:59:08 <cayce> it doesn't really change anonymity
03:59:13 <cayce> there's none in ipv4, so it can't get worse
03:59:34 <cayce> but it does make it much easier to build distributed systems (no NAT, so no ICE just to fucking connect)
04:00:09 <pzuraq> well, hypothetically in IPv4 if you are connected to subnet you can claim it was someone else on the network, or that someone connected and used your network without your knowledge
04:00:23 <pzuraq> with IPv6, each machine would have a unique identity
04:00:42 <cayce> well sure, but that doesn't actually stand up in court in most jurisdictions
04:00:48 <pzuraq> ah
04:00:51 <cayce> and yes, indeed
04:00:57 <cayce> the difference between those two scenarios is NAT
04:01:00 <cayce> which is satan
04:01:18 <pzuraq> lol
04:01:25 <cayce> that and ipv4 has run out of addresses already
04:01:30 <cayce> so, uh, next version GO
04:01:54 <cayce> but anyway, the way you gain anonymity is through routing hoops like tor
04:01:57 <pzuraq> technically infinite addresses with subnetting
04:01:59 <cayce> go read about it, if you haven't
04:02:00 <pzuraq> but yeah
04:02:15 <cayce> it's no silver bullet, of course
04:02:20 <cayce> but every little bit helps
04:02:53 <pzuraq> mm
04:03:04 <pzuraq> TOR is definitely geed
04:03:10 <pzuraq> but it's still leaves a trail
04:03:19 <cayce> not gonna get away from that
04:03:29 <pzuraq> not on the current net anyways
04:03:50 <pzuraq> rewrite tho protocol, *maybe* you could make it part of the inherent structure
04:03:52 <pzuraq> the*
04:04:02 <cayce> you'd have to redo the hardware at this point
04:04:07 <cayce> whole fuckin' thing
04:04:15 <cayce> cause a different protocol is going to use ip
04:04:30 <pzuraq> tbh I'm kinda in the opposite camp though
04:04:32 <cayce> it just won't be udp or tcp, but it'll still run over ip something, at some level
04:04:51 <cayce> with cjdns and similar, you can make local nets
04:04:58 <pzuraq> that is, I think all interaction in the public sphere should be transparent
04:05:07 <cayce> I saw articles about people making them in greece, there's a complete alternet there with 2500 dau
04:05:12 <pzuraq> pretty much anything leaving the house
04:05:38 <cayce> meh, I'd like to push those lines back a bit
04:05:43 <cayce> house is too close
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04:05:52 <cayce> house is pretty small, and easily ceded
04:05:55 <pzuraq> mmk, maybe further than that
04:06:05 <cayce> cause like
04:06:13 <pzuraq> but my point is complete transparency of information
04:06:18 <pzuraq> for ALL people
04:06:26 <pzuraq> govts and corps included
04:06:28 <cayce> I'm not one of the people who needs anonymity. I'm the most privileged class on earth, so I'mma use that to make sure people who need help get it
04:06:46 <cayce> so I support none of this real names bullshit, source attribution bullshit, etc
04:06:49 <cayce> none of it is needed
04:07:03 <cayce> most of it actively harms people
04:07:10 <pzuraq> currently, yes
04:07:16 <pzuraq> but what if it were a two way street
04:07:38 <pzuraq> then, no one can use personal information as leverage, because it's already public
04:07:50 <cayce> I would accept that end only in a case where societies were prepared to actually make it a two way street
04:07:55 <cayce> I can't see that outcome happening
04:07:58 <pzuraq> agreed
04:08:02 <cayce> so I'll not even pursue it
04:08:05 <pzuraq> at least not currently
04:08:26 <pzuraq> well, I wanted to discuss it because I'm not sure if that is the best option or not
04:08:27 <cayce> but just as it is, transsexual people who haven't come out to families, for eg, are in danger
04:08:41 <cayce> situations like that would have to be completely resolved before I'd even consider militant transparency
04:09:16 <cayce> we can't even apply "human rights" reasonably most of the time, so that's a long fucking ways off yet
04:09:18 <pzuraq> oh absolutely
04:09:34 <pzuraq> I'm talking like Star Trek future
04:09:52 <cayce> well that's basically what they do
04:09:53 <pzuraq> we all love each other and nobody beats people for being different
04:10:16 <pzuraq> Star Trek?
04:10:25 <cayce> I'm more pragmatic than idealist, so I don't often look at those
04:10:27 <cayce> yes
04:10:45 <cayce> my frame is always "what is feasible in my lifetime"
04:10:51 <pzuraq> ah
04:10:56 <cayce> "what can I improve for my children?"
04:11:14 <cayce> which is important, because it keeps you not stuck in this stupid "what am I doing tomorrow" shit that fucks everyone
04:11:26 <cayce> lol
04:11:43 <pzuraq> well, I have been tending to think that way moreso in the past few years, but I still like to discuss the ideal
04:11:46 <cayce> like, I have a 5 and 10 year plan
04:12:25 <pzuraq> because I think that eventually in our lifetime or not, we will be able to approach the ideal.
04:13:09 <pzuraq> So to figure out what to do in this lifetime, I ask "what can I do that will change the world now, AND bring us closer to the/one of the ideal outcomes"
04:13:15 <cayce> I don't aspire to an ideal, I aspire to a pareto optimized reality
04:13:41 <cayce> which can be achieved via incremental change
04:14:02 <cayce> small changes help, but thousands of small changes in many areas help more
04:14:13 <pzuraq> I would say that my definition of "ideal" is similar to Pareto optimization
04:14:20 <cayce> apply harm reduction methods to making the world better
04:14:36 <pzuraq> I would argue there is the potential for false peaks though
04:14:38 <cayce> and optimize first steps to be least effort for highest gain
04:15:31 <cayce> that way you get larger effects at the front
04:15:38 <pzuraq> cayce: We should discuss this more, liking this convo
04:15:42 <pzuraq> gotta run though
04:15:43 <cayce> yus
04:15:45 <cayce> same here
04:15:47 <cayce> I want ice cream
04:15:50 <cayce> and it's 1.5 miles away
04:15:56 * cayce bike bike bike
04:15:59 <pzuraq> good luck
04:16:05 <cayce> da you too
04:16:07 <pzuraq> later
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07:04:36 <DrWhat> .bitcoin
07:04:37 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $454.01, 1 BTC = €360.00
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12:01:40 <lysobit> .bitcoin
12:01:41 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $470.00, 1 BTC = €379.62
12:01:57 <lysobit> it reached $500 on mt gox
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12:18:16 <MK_FG> \o/
12:19:33 <MK_FG> Or maybe /o\
12:20:22 <MK_FG> Probably more bad than good comes of such insanely fast growth
12:20:59 <MK_FG> (assuming price is directly corellated with perceived legitimacy and usage)
12:22:11 <lysobit> The market capital increased from $4b to $5b in ~1 day!
12:22:13 <lysobit> https://blockchain.info/charts/market-cap
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12:30:13 <lysobit> hurry up and crash so I can buy more Bitcoins! :P
12:31:19 <MK_FG> You greedy capitalist swine!
12:32:51 <MK_FG> And they probably blow all that growth on Satoshi Dice anyway
12:33:14 <Charles> yeah CMON CRASHH
12:33:28 <Charles> i wish it wld dip to 300
12:33:38 <Charles> :( too hopeful
12:34:08 <MK_FG> Who knows, who knows
12:34:51 <lysobit> .title http://falkvinge.net/2013/03/06/the-target-value-for-bitcoin-is-not-some-50-or-100-it-is-100000-to-1000000/
12:34:53 <botpie91> lysobit: The Target Value For Bitcoin Is Not Some $50 Or $100. It Is $100,000 To $1,000,000. - Falkvinge on Infopolicy
12:34:53 <MK_FG> Iirc last time it skyrocketed I advised DrWhat to take mob money for great profits
12:35:00 <lysobit> That doesn't look right
12:35:05 <MK_FG> Clearly he should've listened to great advice (tm)
12:35:14 <lysobit> If Bitcoin reaches $1m the market cap would be $22m
12:35:19 <lysobit> If Bitcoin reaches $1m the market cap would be $22 trillion *
12:35:23 <MK_FG> (and it crashed like on the next day)
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12:35:57 <Charles> lol
12:36:18 <MK_FG> 22 trillion is like world's count of legit fiat moneys or something?
12:36:33 <lysobit> Anyway, it's still possible if Bitcoin becomes truly mainstream
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12:36:42 <lysobit> $22 trillion is only twice the size of the US economy
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12:36:53 <MK_FG> Oh, not that lot then, I guess
12:37:03 <lysobit> well, 1.5 times the size*
12:37:26 <lysobit> If that ever happens, then that marks the fall of the American empire
12:38:07 <MK_FG> Oh noes, we'll have to find someone else to make fun of
12:38:14 <lysobit> "My prediction of a mainstream breakthrough around the year 2019 remains, and it still depends on getting mainstream usability; a target market cap may be reached about a decade after that happens, as a technology typically takes ten years from mainstream breakthrough to maturity."
12:38:54 <MK_FG> I call bullshit on "technology typically takes ten years from mainstream breakthrough to maturity"
12:39:06 <MK_FG> It very much depends on what kind of tech
12:39:18 <MK_FG> And a lot of other factors, really
12:39:27 <lysobit> Nevertheless, if that prediction is true I will have $25m by the age of 34
12:39:42 <lysobit> but I somewhat doubt this
12:39:48 <lysobit> it seems to surreal
12:39:50 <lysobit> too*
12:39:53 <MK_FG> Yeah, you'll be able to afford like 3 cheezburgers
12:40:06 <MK_FG> Huzzah!
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12:42:02 <lysobit> "The total size of the transactional currency market is hard to estimate, but has been pegged at about $60 trillion (the amount of money in circulation worldwide). "
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12:42:56 <MK_FG> Wank wank wank
12:43:08 <MK_FG> Go do something awesome already
12:43:08 <lysobit> lol
12:43:29 <lysobit> I am doing something awesome
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15:31:43 <iceTwy> .. ?
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15:32:03 <iceTwy> all hell broke loose on this server
15:32:06 <iceTwy> damn
15:32:14 <iceTwy> MK_FG isn't even opped anymore!
15:32:25 <MK_FG> Yay!
15:32:33 <MK_FG> FREEEEDOOOM!!!!
15:32:35 * iceTwy wrecks havoc in da channel
15:32:41 <iceTwy> in other news
15:32:44 <iceTwy> things are looking really good
15:33:06 <iceTwy> currently setting up an arch linux repo with Bitcoin & Litecoin clients
15:33:18 <iceTwy> and LTS Linux kernel with grsecurity & PaX patches
15:33:30 <iceTwy> to be used for completely offline cold storage
15:36:40 <MK_FG> grsec is teh awesomest
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15:38:29 <iceTwy> MK_FG: yeah
15:38:40 <iceTwy> MK_FG: seriously, Arch makes everything less time-consuming
15:38:42 <iceTwy> AUR packages
15:38:44 <iceTwy> <3
15:39:05 <iceTwy> all I've got to do is make my own repo with necessary packages (already done), then build a Live CD with the packages I want
15:39:08 <iceTwy> using archiso
15:39:10 <iceTwy> how is that not convenient and cool
15:40:09 <MK_FG> No objections there
15:40:14 <MK_FG> Carry on, sir
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15:47:30 <DrWhat> http://www.unknowncheats.me/forum/862209-post36.html
15:47:32 <DrWhat> .title
15:47:33 <botpie91> DrWhat: UnKnoWnCheaTs - Multiplayer Game Hacks and Cheats - View Single Post - [Question] Bitcoin Donations
15:47:43 <DrWhat> joepie91 ^
15:47:47 <DrWhat> Am i right?
15:47:54 <DrWhat> anything i need to change/correct
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15:49:28 <joepie91> DrWhat: that is an incredibly shitty font size
15:49:59 <joepie91> I actually had to zoom two notches to be able to read it comfortably, and I have pretty good eyesight
15:50:25 <joepie91> also, DrWhat, not sure what you mean with "civilian currency", might be the wrong word there
15:51:09 <joepie91> aside from that, your post isn't as well-written as it could've been :P
15:51:21 <DrWhat> thats in design
15:51:22 <DrWhat> :)
15:51:22 <joepie91> point 4 for example isn't answered very convincingly
15:51:26 <joepie91> like
15:51:34 <joepie91> you make a statement that fits into your understanding of BTC
15:51:59 <joepie91> but to somebody reading it without knowledge of BTC - without the knowledge you base that statement on - it reads like gibberish
15:52:12 <DrWhat> (facedesk)
15:52:14 <joepie91> even if your statement(s) are technically correct, you're not effectively transfering the message
15:52:59 <DrWhat> They aint points
15:53:03 <DrWhat> they are replies
15:53:08 <DrWhat> to points
15:53:14 <joepie91> that is an awfully familiar forum theme, by the way
15:53:21 <joepie91> DrWhat: no, they're counterpoints
15:53:30 <joepie91> to give an example
15:53:35 <DrWhat> yeah
15:53:35 <joepie91> let's pretend I don't understand much about BTC
15:53:42 <joepie91> what do you mean with 'standalone currency'?
15:53:47 <DrWhat> Oh boy :) RP
15:53:47 <joepie91> what does it have to do with my question about hassle?
15:53:58 <joepie91> how did I say it was a temp solution?
15:54:13 <joepie91> how does subway in russia accepting it, and an ATM existing in canada, help my usage of BTC?
15:54:16 <joepie91> what does that have to do with me?
15:54:26 <joepie91> why can't I just use BTC without getting an account?
15:54:45 <joepie91> and why can't you just send the money over paypal?
15:54:59 <DrWhat> He Understands that part of bitcoin
15:55:08 <joepie91> DrWhat: you think he does
15:55:10 <joepie91> his post says otherwise
15:55:26 <DrWhat> whats he doesnt understand how the BTC goes from on his pc to his pocket
15:55:49 <DrWhat> try reading the whole thread, Mite open a bigger picture
15:55:50 <DrWhat> http://www.unknowncheats.me/forum/forum-general/96183-bitcoin-donations.html
15:56:58 <DrWhat> from thats thread alone and the discution in chat box
15:57:14 <DrWhat> 60% of the people who regularly post have BTC
15:57:16 <joepie91> DrWhat: but wouldn't accepting BTC donations just make the site look bad?
15:57:31 <DrWhat> Hurr hurr
15:57:49 <joepie91> and why can't you just send money using PayPal? you don't need to create an account
15:58:12 <joepie91> Bitcoins are co complicated...
15:58:33 <joepie91> (DrWhat: note how I'm just rehashing the arguments in the forum thread here, from their point of view)
15:58:42 <DrWhat> yup-
15:58:59 <joepie91> DrWhat: so, rebut them
16:03:01 <lysobit> The best quote from that thread is "Saying that Java is nice because it works on every OS is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on every gender."
16:06:20 <joepie91> lysobit: hahaha
16:07:00 <lysobit> I think this reasoning is perfectly valid, though
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16:50:24 <vld> http://i.imgur.com/Q8QMf4u.gif
16:51:02 <lysobit> seen it about 10 times already :p
16:52:14 <lysobit> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t65WaPxPa1s
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17:22:47 <iceTwy> oo
17:22:49 <iceTwy> sweet
17:22:59 <iceTwy> looks like I'll have some Python X JSON related work
17:23:55 <iceTwy> sounds exciting :D
17:24:01 <cayce> lol
17:24:21 <cayce> json = [root_obj][lesser][lesser][item]
17:25:26 <cayce> which reminds me
17:25:42 <cayce> gonna finish my keyword ranker over thanksgiving break
17:27:11 <iceTwy> cayce: more complex than that
17:27:30 <cayce> probably, I was just extracting values
17:27:31 <iceTwy> it could become a handy tool for people using AUR
17:27:44 <cayce> api call -> parse json -> extract number -> cast to int -> compare
17:27:56 <iceTwy> yeah that
17:28:08 <cayce> yep
17:28:13 <iceTwy> I've never really messed with JSON in Python
17:28:23 <cayce> it's not more complicated than the code I pasted
17:28:26 <cayce> well, wrote
17:28:31 <cayce> there might be quotes or something
17:28:31 <cayce> lol
17:28:31 <iceTwy> plus this is in Python3 because pacman python bindings are in python3 only
17:28:34 <iceTwy> so herp
17:28:38 <cayce> but anyway
17:28:41 <iceTwy> yeah
17:28:51 <cayce> you import json; and then parse the object
17:28:56 <cayce> then you can access it like an array
17:28:57 <cayce> done
17:29:08 <cayce> it's really shit simple lol
17:29:51 <cayce> my whole script was like 26 lines, and it pulled from an authenticated api, parsed, compared, and texted me via amazon's api
17:30:27 * cayce import boto;
17:30:35 <cayce> or boto.* I think
17:30:39 <cayce> so the names are less retarded
17:30:44 <cayce> anyway
17:31:08 <cayce> their python thing is like java, all the names are boto.name.othername.thing.fuckyou()
17:40:46 <iceTwy> isn't boto that google thing?
17:44:08 <iceTwy> looks like someone posted a comment on my HTML5 player article
17:44:10 <iceTwy> "I'd like to get the older Flasher player back. This new HTML5 player is shit. I can't watch videos, full-screened on my primary monitor while doing stuff on my secondary monitor. Annoying as fuck."
17:44:14 <iceTwy> ~ John
17:50:58 <cayce> iceTwy:) https://github.com/boto/boto
18:30:24 <complex> is bitcoins surveillanced yet?
18:30:58 <complex> is it 100% safe to whitewash your money with it?
18:31:05 <complex> wups
18:31:15 <complex> i guess laundering is the correct word
18:31:23 <MK_FG> cayce, In py you usually do someting like "from boto.name.othername.thing import fuckyou" anyway to waste less keystrokes
18:31:31 <cayce> yeah
18:31:38 <cayce> that's what I did, since I just needed SNS support
18:31:40 <MK_FG> (though doesn't apply to *, which is way too confusing)
18:31:46 <cayce> I kept the SNS part of the name
18:31:57 <cayce> so I don't confuse where I'm calling
18:31:57 <cayce> lol
18:32:18 <joepie91> <complex>is bitcoins surveillanced yet?
18:32:23 <MK_FG> complex, btc is like most anti-laundering as you can get
18:32:25 <joepie91> this is a question you shouldn't even be asking
18:32:38 <joepie91> it is either technically guaranteed not to be, or it is assumed to be
18:32:50 <complex> huh
18:32:54 <joepie91> if it's anything aside from those two to you, you have a problem with your opsec
18:33:27 <complex> this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security ?
18:33:33 * joepie91 sighs
18:33:40 <complex> :P
18:33:41 <joepie91> complex: either Bitcoin technically guarantees to be impossible to be surveilled, or it doesn't
18:33:50 <joepie91> if it doesn't, you should be assuming that it is surveilled
18:33:57 <complex> yes
18:33:58 <joepie91> asking whether it is surveilled "yet" means you're doing it wrong
18:34:05 <joepie91> the problem is with the "yet"
18:34:07 <complex> ok get it
18:34:11 <complex> is it surveillanced?
18:34:18 <joepie91> still the wrong question
18:34:28 <joepie91> you already make the assumption that it can be (apparently), so why are you asking whether it is?
18:34:34 <joepie91> if it can be surveilled, you should assume it to be
18:34:45 <joepie91> the proper question here is "can Bitcoin be surveilled"
18:34:56 <complex> im asking out of ignorance, in lack of knowledge about how bitcoins really works
18:35:04 <complex> but im starting to get used to nothing being secure
18:35:07 <joepie91> complex: this is not really related to Bitcoin
18:35:12 <joepie91> that's why I was refering to opsec
18:35:22 <complex> so opsec is what i was linking to?
18:35:27 <joepie91> yes
18:35:33 <joepie91> if something is not technically guaranteed to be secure/anonymous/whatever, you should assume that it isn't
18:35:49 <MK_FG> In case of btc, there are nice papers tracking coins to/from major holders' hands
18:35:50 <joepie91> because trusting anything or anybody that is not a technical guarantee, is a massive risk
18:35:55 <complex> so bitcoin does not guarantee that?
18:35:57 <MK_FG> Public ledger \o/
18:36:00 <complex> ok
18:36:03 <joepie91> so regardless of whether it's Bitcoin or TOR or SSL or whatever else
18:36:07 <joepie91> you should only look at technical guarantees
18:36:14 <joepie91> not asking whether anybody is taking advantage of lack of them
18:36:44 <joepie91> now the answer to "can Bitcoins be surveilled" is that there is a public ledger that tracks what coins go from what address to what address
18:36:59 <complex> ok, so bitcoins is not secure in any ways and will never be
18:37:15 <joepie91> complex: I wasn't done yet, and you're jumping to conclusions
18:37:15 <complex> and it is not safe for laundering
18:37:26 <cayce> those are vastly different questions
18:37:27 <joepie91> these are complex topics (no pun intended)
18:37:27 <MK_FG> joepie91, See what you get with your logic!?
18:37:37 <joepie91> you shouldn't try to get an answer in less than a minute
18:37:43 <joepie91> because the reasoning behind it alone, takes more than that
18:37:51 <cayce> bitcoin isn't simple lol, ask better questions
18:38:10 <joepie91> complex: asking "is Bitcoin secure/anonymous/whatever", to put it simply, isn't a question that you can give a yes or no to
18:38:11 <complex> cayce: ...
18:38:18 <joepie91> you need to actually understand the subject matter
18:38:25 <joepie91> and understand what the risks are
18:38:29 <complex> from this discussion, it is a certain no
18:38:39 <joepie91> complex: you're still jumping to conclusions
18:38:46 <complex> independent of whether it is secure or not
18:38:52 <joepie91> there IS no clear-cut answer to your question
18:38:58 <joepie91> so stop looking for one
18:38:59 <joepie91> :|
18:39:07 <cayce> "secure" isn't a question. secure against what?
18:39:08 <complex> i know, which implies that "no, its not secure"
18:39:11 <cayce> you haven't said
18:39:15 <joepie91> there is only an in-depth answer that involves a good understanding of the mechanics
18:39:19 <joepie91> complex: no, it doesn't
18:39:23 <joepie91> again
18:39:26 <joepie91> there is no clear-cut answer
18:39:28 <joepie91> stop looking for one
18:39:32 <cayce> It's secure against double spending
18:39:38 <joepie91> stop trying to conclude "yes" or "no" from whatt I say
18:39:41 <cayce> so, there it's secure
18:39:41 <cayce> done
18:39:44 <cayce> derp logic
18:39:46 <joepie91> and make the effort to actually discuss the topic and understand it
18:39:58 <joepie91> I was literally in the process of explaining to you what the caveats were
18:40:02 <joepie91> when you jumped to a conclusion
18:40:07 <joepie91> basically making it pointless for me to elaborate any further
18:40:15 <joepie91> because you'd already made up your mind (incorrectly, I might add)
18:40:23 <cayce> NP: [Don Omar Feat. Tego Calderon - Bandaleros] [The Fast And The Furious- Tokyo Drift] [224kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
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18:41:25 <joepie91> complex: the simplest answer I can give you is "no, it is not going to be untraceable if you keep refusing to try and understand the subject matter"
18:41:39 <joepie91> because quite simply you're missing knowledge of the internals
18:41:56 <complex> yes, so therefore i have to assume its insecure
18:42:34 <complex> and therefore dont take any risks
18:42:36 <joepie91> complex: no, therefore you have to try and understand what makes it secure or insecure
18:42:44 <cayce> best not use an operating system then
18:42:50 <joepie91> unless you wish to intentionally not invest any effort in learning about the internals of the topic you're asking about
18:42:51 <cayce> you don't know how it works, must be insecure
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18:43:13 <joepie91> complex; the insecurity issue doesn't lie with Bitcoin; it lies with your refusal to make an effort to understand it
18:43:33 <complex> joepie91: i have never said im not willing to try to understand the mechanics
18:43:41 <cayce> go read them then
18:43:50 <cayce> ask questions once you are done reading
18:43:59 <joepie91> (unrelated, in the category of fucking useless responses: https://iceb.in/paste/MfpjzcIo#isbjW+MDWs4wYG50eyC46CgiEwmRrNfU1UxfYauQfdY= )
18:44:22 <joepie91> complex: no, you haven't *said* that you're not willing to, you've *shown* it
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18:44:48 <joepie91> by constantly jumping to conclusions, trying to extract a "yes" or "no" even after I explicitly point out multiple times that the answer is not that simple
18:45:04 <joepie91> rather than asking for elaboration
18:45:04 <joepie91> if that doesn't show unwillingness to understand the mechanics, I don't know what does
18:45:21 <joepie91> :|
18:45:36 <joepie91> hell, as I said, I was in the process of trying to explain it to you
18:45:44 <joepie91> and you made that impossible by basically cutting off the discussion
18:46:11 <complex> i have a feeling you wont explain it now
18:46:41 <joepie91> complex: not until I get the impression that you're actually interested in reading/understanding it
18:46:59 <joepie91> which I haven't gotten so far
18:47:27 <complex> thats okay
18:54:43 <MK_FG> joepie91, "B needs to do some post-processing before sending the data from C back to A" <-- if it's not C doing the sending, I think B should be able to do it in any case
18:55:14 <MK_FG> dealer are pub (send to all), so you probably don't need these there
18:55:25 <joepie91> MK_FG: you are familiar with 0mq?
18:55:30 <MK_FG> Yep
18:55:34 <joepie91> ah, handy :)
18:56:13 <joepie91> anyway, the message path is A -> B -> C -> B -> A
18:56:17 <MK_FG> I say push/pull or router, in latter case you just do addressing, in former pick which socket to use
18:56:47 <joepie91> how would push/pull work in this case? as it needs to be bidirectional (req/rep pattern really)
18:57:17 <MK_FG> You open two sockets - one push, one pull and send some id with each request
18:57:34 <MK_FG> Just like TCP stream socket with http pipelining on top
18:58:36 <joepie91> MK_FG: there may be many instances of A and many instances of C
18:58:43 <joepie91> that doesn't seem to work with that architecture?
18:58:48 <MK_FG> router will allow you to open just one socket for server, so might be good if you have like 9000 things connection to B
18:58:52 <MK_FG> *connecting
18:59:09 <joepie91> MK_FG: I've completely lost you :P
18:59:10 <MK_FG> Well, it works, just not that well, yeah
18:59:14 <joepie91> can you explain your idea as verbosely as you can?
18:59:20 <joepie91> well that was a redundant question
18:59:26 escape has quit (Ping timeout)
18:59:28 <joepie91> can you explain your idea as verbosely as reasonably possible?
18:59:35 <joepie91> lol
19:00:05 <MK_FG> Ok, in case of router
19:00:16 <MK_FG> You open one router socket on B
19:00:57 <MK_FG> Each A also opens router because it should be able to make async requests
19:01:36 <MK_FG> Each A sends message like "B, null, (msg_id, msg)" to deliver request to B
19:01:50 escape (tor@AA590F93.362B7402.283603DB.IP) has joined #crytocc
19:02:11 <MK_FG> B receives "A1, null, (msg_id, msg)" (A above = A1)
19:02:34 <MK_FG> B does whatever else and sends back "A1, null, (msg_id, msg_reply)"
19:02:51 <MK_FG> A receives "B, null, (msg_id, msg_reply)"
19:03:15 <MK_FG> Should A need to send more requests to B - it sends "B, null, (msg_id2, msg2)"...
19:03:35 <MK_FG> And B does same thing, sending back reply with msg_id2
19:03:53 <MK_FG> That "(msg_id, msg)" thing is outside 0mq
19:04:16 <MK_FG> But addressing in "address, null, msg" is 0mq thing with router sockets
19:04:19 <joepie91> okay, so basically you have a router talking to a router?
19:04:37 <MK_FG> Yeah, router can actually talk to e.g. req or whatevers
19:04:59 <MK_FG> But if you have req on A, you can't send two requests w/o getting answer for req1
19:05:21 <MK_FG> So has to be either router or some push/pull pairs
19:05:48 <joepie91> MK_FG: I'm going to mull over this for a few minutes, thanks for the help so far :P
19:06:35 <MK_FG> In unlikely case when you have super-good network, maybe you can just use dealer on B and send like "(msg_id, msg_reply)" from dealer...
19:06:42 <MK_FG> ...and every A client will get it
19:07:10 <MK_FG> ....but as only A1 knows msg_id, it'll be the only one that not discards it
19:07:19 <MK_FG> But that's like super inefficient :P
19:07:20 <joepie91> mmmm... MK_FG: let's say that each A only has to req/rep once but there can be many As, but all of them are processed asynchronously by B
19:07:33 <joepie91> would the correct approach be a REQ on A talking to a ROUTER on B
19:07:43 <MK_FG> Yes, sounds like it
19:07:47 <joepie91> and then having B unpack the message and craft a reply itself with data gotten from elsewhere, then sending it back to A?
19:08:00 <MK_FG> Each A can actually open new req for each request to B
19:08:01 <joepie91> and would the only way to do that be to build an envelope myself?
19:08:12 <joepie91> (on B)
19:08:26 <MK_FG> Yeah
19:08:34 <MK_FG> Only way with router
19:08:49 <MK_FG> Router always needs address and gets address iirc
19:08:54 <joepie91> I see
19:09:01 <MK_FG> So no way around stripping/attaching these
19:09:01 <joepie91> and this is possible in Python also, I assume? :P
19:09:08 <MK_FG> Totally
19:09:45 <MK_FG> My 0mq can be way rusty (for like 2y), but I don't think they move fast ;)
19:10:16 <MK_FG> And when they do, they apparently do forks like xs.io and nanomsg :P
19:10:35 <joepie91> MK_FG: do you by any chance know where to find example code for envelope creation/stripping? quick ctrl+F in guide hasn't turned up anything yet
19:10:36 <joepie91> and, heh
19:12:59 <MK_FG> Weird, I think guide was more useful before
19:16:46 <MK_FG> http://zguide.zeromq.org/py:rtreq
19:17:24 <joepie91> time.sleep(1) # Give 0MQ/2.0.x time to flush output
19:17:27 * joepie91 raises eyebrow
19:18:01 <MK_FG> Note the: client.send(address, zmq.SNDMORE) + client.send("", zmq.SNDMORE) + client.send(stuff)
19:18:08 <joepie91> yeah
19:18:10 <MK_FG> That's that (address, null, msg)
19:18:36 <MK_FG> zmq is actually kinda clever in how it does things
19:19:11 <MK_FG> With python or whatever, it loads lib, which starts its own totally separate thread in a bg
19:19:25 <MK_FG> Not python or whatever interpreter thread, thread from a lib
19:19:34 <MK_FG> And that thread does all i/o as it pleases
19:19:44 <MK_FG> Hence the cop-outs with delays like that
19:20:30 <MK_FG> Like, if you don't use that delay, python will die along with that thread and it won't send the stuff it should
19:20:40 <MK_FG> Or, ideally, you'd get some ack and then die
19:21:23 <MK_FG> But if delivery of that last "welp, I died" packet isn't important (i.e. app on the other end can handle you dying suddenly) - just sleep might work
19:21:46 <MK_FG> Also, not sure, but iirc there was an explicit zmq.flush() or something
19:22:02 <MK_FG> (which blocked until all bg thread queues came clean)
19:28:02 <MK_FG> Oh, that's right, it has ZMQ_LINGER sockopt for that
19:29:01 <MK_FG> Which I think should work as "timeout to send queued-in-thread stuff" when you do context.term()
19:29:02 <joepie91> network maintenance incoming
19:29:11 <joepie91> (MK_FG: will read up in a sec)
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19:30:20 <joepie91> okay
19:34:20 <joepie91> MK_FG: right
19:34:23 <joepie91> useful to know :P
19:34:58 <joepie91> also there will be some node restarts in a bit
19:36:12 <MK_FG> It might seem really dumb thing to keep that bg thread from what I'm explaining above, but I think key there is 100% consistency (they don't reimplement anything) and lightspeed performance of that thing
19:36:40 <MK_FG> I think I linked the thing here before in a similar convo, but...
19:37:23 <joepie91> MK_FG: the IRC leaf you are on is about to restart
19:37:36 <joepie91> see you in a bit :P
19:39:06 loggy (loggy@5C4B2CE4.B8E60B3B.FD9B6484.IP) has joined #crytocc
19:39:06 <haless.cryto.net> Topic for #crytocc is: Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICALLY LOGGED CHANNEL. http://wire.cryto.net/logs | http://cryto.net/, http://forums.cryto.net/ | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Now, with more dpk! | Cryto Research: http://research.cryto.net/ | RIP Aaron Swartz
19:39:06 <haless.cryto.net> Users on #crytocc: loggy Asad pzuraq jimirus lblissett daemon ElectRo` LapAnon vld joepie91 Sue tintin truetravesty captainobvious GHOSTnew &botpie91 fr0z3n achus IR601 mikaa staticsafe probably &MK_FG @SpaghettiCode lysobit connor
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19:39:22 <joepie91> MK_FG: hehe
19:39:27 *** d0wn|off is now known as d0wn
19:39:38 <MK_FG> Even though sending is literally socket.sendmsg(where, bytes)
19:39:56 <MK_FG> Yet that bg thread batches things in huge tcp packets and does it way faster
19:40:32 <joepie91> MK_FG: generally pretty impressed with zeromq so far performance-wise, it's pretty close to 'magic' :)
19:40:53 <joepie91> also, announcement, SSL certs are fixed now
19:41:06 <joepie91> cc cayce and iceTwy neither of which appear to have reconnected
19:41:16 foolex (foolex@5D6B0912.EC145393.9A74EEF1.IP) has joined #crytocc
19:41:20 <joepie91> so uh, yeah :P
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19:44:23 <joepie91> hi cayce, welcome back
19:44:35 <joepie91> SSL cert werk now
19:44:58 <cayce> kk
19:45:04 <joepie91> :P
19:45:17 <cayce> ipv6 still takes years
19:45:18 <cayce> [11:38:01] * Connecting to irc.cryto.net (2607:f7a0:1:1::24:6) port 6697...
19:45:19 <cayce> [11:42:16] * * Subject: /C=NL/O=Cryto/OU=IRC/CN=irc.cryto.net
19:45:30 <joepie91> mm.
19:45:39 <joepie91> wel hey, it connects!
19:45:42 <joepie91> well *
19:45:56 * cayce laughs
19:46:11 <MK_FG> Probably involves some chinaman seeing led blip and replugging cable somewhere
19:46:14 <joepie91> cayce: and it serves you a cert that is valid for the hostname!
19:46:20 <joepie91> that is an improvement!
19:46:37 <joepie91> MK_FG: hehe
19:46:48 <joepie91> but needs to finish his coffee first
19:47:19 <MK_FG> Yeah, can be already drunk this time of night, too
19:48:19 <joepie91> MK_FG: if a message is routed through multiple router/dealer sets, what do the message parts look like?
19:48:26 <joepie91> afaik it would have an addressing chain
19:48:42 <joepie91> are these all grouped into one part (ie. one recv) or a part for each until terminator (null)?
19:48:44 <MK_FG> It's never routed with normal sockets
19:48:47 <joepie91> I thought the latter
19:48:53 <joepie91> but unsure
19:49:17 <joepie91> MK_FG: assuming you send from A -> B -> C -> D -> E and B,C,D are all router/dealer sets just proxying on the message from A to E
19:49:31 <joepie91> theoretical scenario
19:49:31 <joepie91> :P
19:50:08 <MK_FG> Yeah, fairly sure you have to receive msg on each hop, slap new address (for routers) and send it from next socket
19:50:30 <MK_FG> I think they had some prefab parts for simple tasks like that
19:50:38 <joepie91> MK_FG: what I'm trying to understand is what the message will look like when it reaches E
19:50:40 <MK_FG> But these don't look anything like sockets
19:50:51 <joepie91> two possibilities:
19:50:58 <MK_FG> Well, you receive it on B from A
19:51:03 <joepie91> A,B,C,D | NULL | messagebody
19:51:06 <MK_FG> What do you want it to look like?
19:51:12 <joepie91> A | B | C | D | NULL | messagebody
19:51:18 <MK_FG> I mean, you can mangle it on each hop however
19:51:21 <joepie91> which of these two is it, | being a separator for recv()s
19:51:32 <joepie91> MK_FG; see above options
19:51:37 <joepie91> that's what I'm trying to figure out
19:52:03 <joepie91> is the addressing chain packed into one part (one recv()) or does each hop in the addressing chain have its own part
19:52:21 <MK_FG> You receive message on B as "A, null, msg"....
19:53:07 <MK_FG> ...and there you can either send "C, null, msg" to C or maybe send it "C, null, A, null, msg", or maybe "C, null, whatever"
19:53:18 <MK_FG> (assuming it's all router sockets)
19:54:09 <MK_FG> I don't see why'd you even have some "chain" - you can build it, sure
19:54:21 <MK_FG> But otherwise, fairly sure zmq won't build it for you
19:55:08 <MK_FG> But maybe I'm wrong and routers do that if you connect each one to the next
19:55:15 <MK_FG> Or maybe it's some new thing
19:55:48 <MK_FG> Might be easier to test and find in docs afterwards, come to think of it :P
19:58:09 <joepie91> MK_FG: looks like convention is D | NULL | C | NULL | B | NULL | A | NULL | messagebody
19:58:19 <joepie91> per http://zguide.zeromq.org/page:all#toc55
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20:00:40 <MK_FG> Convention sounds fishy - meaning that you'd have to know all the hops before sending the packet to build that ^^^?
20:01:01 <MK_FG> (quite possibly you can, e.g. cjdns does that)
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20:01:28 <MK_FG> But it sounds like something that defy packet switching dogmas!
20:02:02 <joepie91> MK_FG: no
20:02:08 <joepie91> each hop appends itself
20:02:13 <joepie91> when proxying it through
20:02:18 <joepie91> to build a 'return path'
20:02:19 <joepie91> for the reply
20:02:33 <joepie91> so that the reply goes back over the same path and ends up at the right place
20:02:36 <joepie91> in*
20:03:01 <MK_FG> Ah, fair enough, though still blasphemous
20:05:49 <MK_FG> It actually sounds like a silly thing to do if you can connect A to D at some point
20:10:36 <joepie91> MK_FG: this was a hypothetical scenario assuming there was no way to reasonably do that :)
20:12:31 <MK_FG> Yeah, it's how all proxying works anyway
20:12:53 <MK_FG> sync req-response all the way down
20:14:31 ChauffeR (ChauffeR@can.i.haz.a.cuddle) has joined #crytocc
20:15:42 <joepie91> ChauffeR: ohai!
20:15:47 <ChauffeR> hello
20:15:53 <joepie91> .welcome ChauffeR
20:15:54 <botpie91> ChauffeR: welcome to #crytocc! Please be aware that this channel is publicly logged, and make sure to read the rules in the channel topic. You may hide messages from the public logs by prefixing them with [off].
20:16:00 <ChauffeR> NSA :(
20:16:07 <joepie91> MK_FG: thanks a lot for your help, I think I have a pretty good idea of how to go about stuff now :)
20:16:14 <ChauffeR> 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 15.2258 s, 70.5 MB/s
20:16:17 * ChauffeR shakes fist
20:16:23 <joepie91> (and it's certainly a much more useful response than what I got in #zeromq :P)
20:16:37 <MK_FG> I think I should actually be there...
20:16:41 <joepie91> hehe
20:16:53 <joepie91> :)
20:17:04 <MK_FG> Just have znc always detached
20:17:08 <joepie91> also, I do have to be fair - despite this one episode of wtf-useless-answer, pieterh is generally very helpful
20:17:18 <joepie91> so I won't chalk it down to the channel overall
20:20:19 <joepie91> http://www.scei.co.jp/ps4-license/
20:21:53 <joepie91> right, I think it's time for me to make a shower and eat
20:21:55 <joepie91> er
20:21:57 <joepie91> take a shower, even
20:22:04 <joepie91> making a shower would be a significantly different activity
20:22:09 <joepie91> :P
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20:41:14 iceTwy (iceTwy@cryto-610769D0.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #crytocc
20:58:29 <joepie91> iceTwy: SSL fixed
21:17:32 <joepie91> .tw https://twitter.com/iamdevloper/status/402178793294794752
21:17:33 <botpie91> 11.30pm: "I'll just fix this one tiny CSS bug...", 4.30am: "I hate CSS and everything it stands for." (@iamdevloper)
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21:20:27 <iceTwy> joepie91: nice & that tweet is so true :D
21:20:36 pzuraq (pzuraq@cryto-D2623541.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #crytocc
21:21:32 <joepie91> yes :P
21:22:46 <iceTwy> uuuh
21:22:50 <iceTwy> what am I better off doing
21:23:06 <iceTwy> getting an USB stick with an i686 Arch Linux Live CD
21:23:15 <iceTwy> or create an i686 Arch Linux chroot
21:23:21 <iceTwy> to compile 32 bits packages
21:24:39 <joepie91> iceTwy: http://openbuildservice.org/2012/09/10/arch-linux-support/
21:25:02 <joepie91> :)
21:27:28 <iceTwy> joepie91: so wait
21:27:35 <iceTwy> can I actually have a repo with everything I need in there?
21:27:45 <joepie91> iceTwy: yes
21:27:46 <iceTwy> I mean, with every custom package I need?
21:27:52 <iceTwy> and it compiles them for meh?
21:27:54 <iceTwy> o.o
21:27:56 <joepie91> yes
21:28:08 <joepie91> this is a hosted instance: https://build.opensuse.org/ (which I presume runs the latest version of OBS)
21:28:11 <joepie91> but you can also run OBS yourself
21:28:14 <joepie91> (in theory anyway)
21:29:07 <joepie91> iceTwy: it's basically an automated distributed build system for multiple architectures and package formats
21:29:15 <joepie91> it's pretty awesome
21:29:16 <iceTwy> holy crap
21:29:17 <joepie91> uses Xen I think
21:29:18 <iceTwy> nice
21:29:20 <joepie91> to set up environments
21:29:28 <joepie91> and sets up a clean environment for each build
21:29:46 <joepie91> so no cross-contamination or missing build deps that you didn't realize existed because you already had them installed locally
21:29:51 <joepie91> :P
21:30:12 ElectRo` has quit (Ping timeout)
21:40:41 <iceTwy> err..
21:40:45 <iceTwy> how do I sign up? lol
21:40:59 <iceTwy> I'm logged into the Novell website, but oddly, not into openSuSE
21:41:30 <cayce> oh man
21:41:36 <cayce> I just figured out what wayland/weston is
21:41:52 pzuraq has quit (Input/output error)
21:41:56 <cayce> they're taking xorg and applying the unix principle to it
21:42:10 <cayce> turn it into a simple interface, for which there can be competing implementations
21:42:36 <cayce> fucking yes
21:43:01 <joepie91> cayce: http://international.sueddeutsche.de/post/67252337070/the-contractor-spies-hackers-for-hire-and-a-shadow
21:43:11 <joepie91> iceTwy: oh, Novells sign-in system is a fucking mess
21:43:21 <joepie91> just login to OBS again with your regular Novell credentials
21:43:26 <joepie91> it should eventually work
21:44:06 <cayce> oh hot
21:44:16 <cayce> kde platform 5 will be wayland0y
21:44:18 <cayce> -y
21:44:39 * cayce may try 4.12 when it golds
21:45:06 <joepie91> whoop
21:45:13 <iceTwy> it just won't let me joepie91
21:45:15 <iceTwy> lol
21:45:17 <iceTwy> wtf
21:45:19 <iceTwy> with 2 diff accounts
21:45:24 <joepie91> iceTwy: error not specific enough
21:45:25 <iceTwy> on both FF and Chromium
21:45:28 <iceTwy> well, okay
21:45:31 <joepie91> :P
21:45:37 <iceTwy> on https://build.opensuse.org/, I'm trying to login
21:46:02 <iceTwy> entered my credentials 40 times, but it just doesn't log me in, it instead redirects me to https://build.opensuse.org/
21:46:07 <cayce> damn, I want 187.30 per hour for hacking other nationstates
21:46:16 <joepie91> iceTwy: what happens when you enter randomstuff
21:46:20 <cayce> a week of that and my school is paid for
21:46:34 <iceTwy> joepie91: lemme see
21:46:38 <joepie91> also, try https://build.opensuse.org/ICSLogin/auth-up
21:46:56 <iceTwy> joepie91: error with invalid stuff
21:47:08 <joepie91> iceTwy: same here
21:47:13 <joepie91> are you -sure- you are not logged in yet
21:47:15 <cayce> and 3.13 is going to be as hot as 3.12, and 3.14 is going to begin port work to blk-mq hotness
21:47:19 <joepie91> because when you login it sends you back to home
21:47:20 <joepie91> without a message
21:47:21 <iceTwy> wtf
21:47:31 <iceTwy> I am logged in, probably
21:47:36 <iceTwy> but why doesn't it show that I'm logged in?!
21:47:37 <joepie91> iceTwy: F5 on homepage
21:47:43 <joepie91> shfit+F5 actually
21:47:45 <joepie91> shift *
21:47:52 <cayce> shit+f5
21:48:04 <iceTwy> nothing
21:48:06 <iceTwy> :s
21:48:14 <cayce> hmm
21:48:48 <joepie91> shitf5
21:48:49 <joepie91> :P
21:48:58 * joepie91 calls next project shitf5
21:49:04 <iceTwy> xD
21:49:09 <joepie91> iceTwy: clear cookies try again?
21:49:15 <joepie91> "have you tried turning it off and on again?"
21:49:19 <iceTwy> yup, cookies are automatically cleared when I leave Chromium
21:49:49 <joepie91> iceTwy: clear them explicitly
21:49:53 <joepie91> for build.opensuse.org
21:49:57 <iceTwy> hm
21:50:29 <iceTwy> done
21:50:31 <iceTwy> still nothing
21:50:33 <iceTwy> wow wtf opensuse
21:51:12 <iceTwy> one sec
21:52:13 <joepie91> "Not Found
21:52:14 <joepie91> The requested URL /nl/cgi-bin/webscr was not found on this server."
21:52:15 <joepie91> good job paypal
21:53:26 <vld> haxed
21:53:54 <iceTwy> still not
21:54:23 * cayce tries installing nvidia-331
21:54:39 <cayce> soon: linux 3.12
21:54:47 <joepie91> soon: broken
21:54:48 <joepie91> :D
21:55:03 <cayce> :D
21:55:07 <cayce> but I get extent caching!
21:55:09 <cayce> WORTH IT
21:55:17 <joepie91> iceTwy: no idea why it doesn't work there, worksforme
21:55:42 <iceTwy> blergh
21:55:56 <cayce> wat
21:55:57 <cayce> linux-image-goldfish - Linux kernel image for the goldfish kernel.
21:56:15 * cayce installs that one for extra fishbowl power
21:56:33 <iceTwy> your goldfish now lives up to 1 century longer!
21:56:53 <cayce> D:
21:57:18 * cayce wonders about 3.12.1
21:57:23 <cayce> today would be the day >_>
21:57:27 <joepie91> cayce: goldfish kernel... is that like /dev/null-as-a-service?
21:57:31 <joepie91> :D
21:57:37 <joepie91> forgets anything you throw at it after 4 seconds
21:57:43 <cayce> I hope so, I would have amazing QOS
21:57:58 <cayce> do that and charge for SLA
21:58:00 <cayce> :D
21:58:09 <joepie91> cayce: http://devnull-as-a-service.com/
21:58:36 <cayce> also 3.13 may have a blocking /dev/random finally
21:58:41 <cayce> fucking linux
21:58:56 <cayce> they're going to turn linux's random into freebsd's random, like it should be
21:59:20 <cayce> random is a block device which blocks with insufficient entropy, urandom has multiple sources and will use prng in absence of sufficient random
21:59:49 <cayce> >3
21:59:51 <cayce> <3 *
22:00:38 <cayce> anyway, I'm just putting off my hw
22:00:39 <cayce> lol
22:01:18 <cayce> agh
22:01:28 <cayce> I know I'm going to build 3.12 and it's going to be 3.12.1 2 hours later
22:01:30 <cayce> e.e
22:01:50 <iceTwy> lelele
22:01:56 <iceTwy> i've got 3.12.0 here
22:01:58 <iceTwy> runs fine
22:02:44 <cayce> yes, so does 11.6
22:02:49 <cayce> 3.11.6
22:02:52 <cayce> but 3.11.8 is out
22:02:54 <cayce> :|
22:03:24 <cayce> Linux ono-sendai 3.11.6 #1 SMP Sat Nov 2 09:51:45 PDT 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux
22:03:50 <cayce> I need to redo my .config though
22:03:56 <cayce> need to figure out how to get cd rom support
22:03:59 <cayce> lel
22:07:18 complex_ (litehode@1FB20456.69AC617A.F6E1C77B.IP) has joined #crytocc
22:08:34 <iceTwy> what the fucking hell is wrong with suse
22:08:38 <iceTwy> ffs
22:09:02 <iceTwy> OH GOD FINALLY
22:09:03 <iceTwy> YAAYAYAYAYAYAYA
22:09:26 <cayce> this may kill everything
22:09:34 <iceTwy> or not
22:09:37 <iceTwy> or not
22:09:37 * cayce hits enter
22:09:49 complex has quit (Ping timeout)
22:09:59 <cayce> new nvidia drivers
22:10:10 <cayce> it's cool, though
22:10:25 <cayce> I ran the update in screen that way if it kills my ui the update will still success
22:17:23 complex_ has quit (User quit: )
22:17:48 <cayce> fuck yeah
22:18:24 <iceTwy> what the hell opensuse
22:21:15 iceTwy has quit (User quit: Disconnecting from server)
22:21:19 iceTwy (iceTwy@cryto-610769D0.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #crytocc
22:23:43 <iceTwy> lol joepie91
22:23:51 <iceTwy> build is the only opensuse service I can't log into
22:27:03 * joepie91 claps
22:27:27 <staticsafe> heh
22:28:12 <cayce> boop
22:29:48 <joepie91> beep
22:31:54 <cayce> bloop
22:32:47 cayce has quit (User quit: Three sheets to the wind)
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22:54:33 <joepie91> wtf.
22:54:38 <joepie91> in 2001
22:54:43 <joepie91> "Live365.com has decided that I am a bad person. First they sent me this cease and desist letter. Then to make sure I "felt" it they shutdown my dad's stream.
22:54:43 <joepie91> What the fuck do I do? If you have any suggestions help me out here."
22:54:51 <joepie91> c&d: http://streamripper.sourceforge.net/dc.php
22:55:01 <joepie91> stream shutdown: http://streamripper.sourceforge.net/termnotice.php
22:58:21 cayce (cayce@cayce.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
22:58:43 <cayce> joepie91:) cert is self signed :<
22:59:02 <cayce> took me 5 minutes to fail cert validation, and another 5 to reconnect after disabling cert validation
22:59:11 <cayce> lmao\
23:00:08 <cayce> .bitcoin
23:00:09 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $479.45, 1 BTC = €390.00
23:01:51 <cayce> Last price:$533.10000
23:01:54 <cayce> anyway
23:02:04 <cayce> goxlast is well over 500
23:02:26 <cayce> sorta wish my bank verif would go through ;D
23:04:50 <cayce> so we made fun of asrock for making a btc mining mobo
23:04:59 <cayce> and then http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-announces-server-graphics-card-2013nov14.aspx?cmpid=social14543734 happened
23:07:19 <joepie91> cayce: yes, cert is self-signed
23:07:21 <joepie91> fuck CA model
23:07:39 <joepie91> cayce: also, goxlast is irrelevant
23:07:48 <cayce> problem: I have to invalidate entire security model for "security"
23:07:59 <cayce> hexchat has no... cert pinning
23:08:13 <cayce> (which is what we'd want in this situation)
23:08:28 <joepie91> mhmm
23:08:31 <joepie91> go complain at dev
23:08:32 <joepie91> :)
23:08:49 <cayce> no
23:08:56 <cayce> he gets no complaints from me
23:09:11 <cayce> he broke the config file format in a minor release and refused to build a converter for the next minor release
23:09:25 <cayce> fuck him
23:10:24 <DrWhat> !winamp next
23:10:27 <DrWhat> Wups
23:16:54 <lysobit> So this actually happened.
23:16:58 <lysobit> .title http://www.wwlp.com/news/massachusetts/mass-pd-pays-ransom-to-reverse-virus
23:17:01 <botpie91> lysobit: Mass. PD pays 'ransom' to reverse virus | WWLP.com
23:27:54 Riddler (Riddler@cryto-1D9B597A.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #crytocc
23:27:57 <Riddler> hello
23:31:10 iceTwy has quit (Ping timeout)
23:33:28 <joepie91> "for the perfect bit of chicken or meat"
23:33:29 <joepie91> wat...
23:34:56 <joepie91> lysobit: classy
23:35:17 <Riddler> lysobit saw you on TV man... very professional.
23:43:54 Riddler has parted #crytocc ()
23:59:47 <probably> I need a new laptop, any suggestions on what I should get?
23:59:53 <probably> joepie91 iceTwy DrWhat