Cryto! 13 August 2013
00:37:22 <why_slap_option> bbl mates
00:37:50 why_slap_option has quit (Input/output error)
00:50:54 <joepie91> http://nowaynsa.com/
00:52:52 <lysobit> According to a recent NSA memo, 1.6% of all online activity is monitored and collected. That’s enough to capture more than 50% of all internet communications.
00:52:54 <lysobit> huh?
00:53:07 <joepie91> hops.
00:53:16 <lysobit> oh wait, nevermind, it makes sense
00:53:16 <lysobit> :P
00:53:51 <lysobit> but 1.6% of online activity accounts for 50% of internet traffic?
00:55:12 <lady-3jane> a significant portion of internet traffic is not web browsing
00:55:44 <lysobit> yes
00:55:59 <lysobit> but i can't imagine that the nsa would, for example be interested in bittorrent traffic
00:56:22 <lysobit> most of the intesting traffic is not bulk data transfers
00:56:23 <lady-3jane> probably not, but if you're sort and pitching traffic as it comes in, you get to pitch torrent traffic
00:56:26 <lady-3jane> you still see it
00:56:57 <lysobit> it still doesn't explain how 1.6% of online activity accounts for 50% of internet traffic
00:57:10 <lysobit> unless that activity is bittorrent
00:57:16 <joepie91> <joepie91>hops.
00:57:19 <lysobit> which in that case, that website is being silly :P
00:58:04 <lysobit> joepie91: what?
00:58:21 <lady-3jane> I would blame it on weasel wording more than anything. THey use... "funny" definitions of everything. Internet traffic is not defined. Internet communications isn't either. Hell, we've had a lot of problems pinning down what "monitored and collected" means, even.
00:58:23 <joepie91> I am guessing that they are counting "activity" as "a packet flows through a device"
00:58:38 <lysobit> joepie91: that still doesn't explain it
00:58:50 <joepie91> which means that for every packet you send somewhere, it goes through several hops and generates "online activity" several times
00:59:15 <joepie91> and probably several of those situations
00:59:23 <joepie91> either way, I am going to brb
01:01:06 <lysobit> joepie91: then surely that would mean % online activity is greater than % internet traffic
01:01:25 <lysobit> so that for example, 75% of online activity accounts for 50% of internet traffic
01:02:44 <lady-3jane> It makes a lot more sense if you reverse those numbers, and if that applies to the original it means web browsing is only perhaps 3.2% of the total volume of data flowing across the internet (using their numbers)
01:03:01 <lady-3jane> but, fucking words
01:03:03 <lady-3jane> lol
01:03:23 <lysobit> yes, it would
01:04:05 <lysobit> when the tracker for the pirate bay got raided pre-DHT, Europe's internet traffic dropped by 50%
01:04:07 <lady-3jane> and if you're instantly discounting... file transfers and movies, and subsequently the random non-http data, that doesn't sound wrong to me
01:04:17 <lady-3jane> yeah, I heard about that :D
01:04:50 <lady-3jane> though pages are huge these days, html and js and such are still rather small comparatively
01:04:51 <lysobit> iirc
01:05:02 <lysobit> [02:04:04] <lysobit> when the tracker for the pirate bay got raided pre-DHT, Europe's internet traffic dropped by 50%
01:05:02 <lysobit> [02:04:23] * Disconnected
01:05:02 <lysobit> [02:04:36] * Rejoined channel #crytocc
01:05:02 <lysobit> [02:04:36] * Topic is 'Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICLY LOGGED CHANNEL. http://wire.cryto.net/logs | http://cryto.net/, http://forums.cryto.net/ | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Online Flash IDE: http://wonderfl.net/about/ | Cryto Research: http://research.cryto.net/ | RIP Aaron Swartz'
01:05:02 <lysobit> [02:04:36] * Set by joepie91 on Wed Feb 06 23:40:17
01:05:02 <lysobit> [02:04:49] <lady-3jane> though pages are huge these days, html and js and such are still rather small comparatively
01:05:05 <lysobit> pinged out
01:05:26 <lady-3jane> <lady-3jane> and if you're instantly discounting... file transfers and movies, and subsequently the random non-http data, that doesn't sound wrong to me
01:05:26 <lady-3jane> <lady-3jane> yeah, I heard about that :D
01:05:26 <lady-3jane> <lady-3jane> though pages are huge these days, html and js and such are still rather small comparatively
01:05:30 <lady-3jane> also,
01:05:34 <lady-3jane> loggy, pointer?
01:05:34 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T01-05-34
01:06:56 <lysobit> well it is pretty amazing how 1 or 2 servers running a tracker are responsible for 50% of a continent's traffic
01:07:09 <lady-3jane> yeah. crazy shit.
01:07:34 <lady-3jane> hmm, I wonder if I can turn dht on here
01:07:38 * lady-3jane tries it
01:08:09 <lysobit> dht can be turned on anywhere
01:08:10 * lady-3jane prepares for the router to die
01:08:15 <lady-3jane> nah I just moved
01:08:19 <lysobit> no need to listen for connections
01:08:22 <lysobit> or open ports
01:08:22 <lady-3jane> old network hardware died from dht
01:08:49 <lady-3jane> which reminds me
01:08:59 <lady-3jane> I want to see if it's possible to make dht supernodes or something
01:09:03 <lady-3jane> I haven't read the spec yet ><
01:10:30 <lady-3jane> woop
01:10:38 <lady-3jane> there are academic papers on selecting supernodes
01:11:32 <lysobit> i get the feeling that dht is more vulnerable than it makes out to be
01:11:49 <lysobit> i have yet to find any good documentation of DHT
01:12:27 <lady-3jane> Yeah, that's why I'm looking at setting up a dht box
01:12:34 <lady-3jane> I want to see if it's possible, and if it is, do it
01:13:02 <lady-3jane> I'm pretty sure skype's old system was modeled after it
01:14:24 <lysobit> I'm curious as to how DHT nodes bootstrap
01:14:40 <lady-3jane> they all run bootstrap routers
01:14:55 <lady-3jane> bittorrent inc runs one, as does transmissionbt
01:15:03 <lady-3jane> I'd bet vuze does too
01:15:10 <lysobit> so it's not really decentralised then, is it?
01:15:13 <lady-3jane> though they use kademila dht or whatever
01:15:13 <lady-3jane> no
01:15:21 <lady-3jane> it's dht after you bootstrap
01:15:24 <lady-3jane> that's the one issue
01:15:28 <lady-3jane> big fuckin issue though
01:15:39 <lysobit> so I can see why they might like to keep the protocol poorly documented
01:15:52 <lady-3jane> http://bittorrent.org/beps/bep_0005.html
01:15:57 <lady-3jane> that's bittorrent inc's dht
01:16:00 <lysobit> it's an easy target for the music industry
01:18:28 <lady-3jane> I suppose I'll have to compile and test https://github.com/spikebike/supernode
01:18:49 <lady-3jane> runs on go, so that shouldn't be hard
01:18:57 <lady-3jane> is go, whatever
01:19:00 <lady-3jane> that grammared wrong
01:19:45 <lysobit> it would be interesting to create an online database of all the hashes/torrents in dht
01:20:49 <lady-3jane> yes it would :)
01:22:00 <lysobit> sort of like a torrent site with an ad-hoc database
01:22:04 <lysobit> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Network#Bootstrapping
01:22:11 <lysobit> Bitcoin looks up the IP Addresses of several host names and adds those to the list of potential addresses. This is the default seeding mechanism, as of v0.6.x and later.
01:22:12 <lysobit> eww
01:22:58 <lady-3jane> yeah
01:23:17 <lady-3jane> this whole bootstrapping thing is a giant pain, but the alternative is even harder
01:23:42 <lady-3jane> ipv6 tries to do routerless bootstrapping, and it's where all the vulnerabilities in it are
01:28:12 <lysobit> ipv6 has a built-in p2p bootstrapping method?
01:30:10 <lady-3jane> sorta, it's part of how you self assign a globally unique address
01:31:34 <lysobit> hmm... another thing that I'm _very_ curious by
01:32:01 <lysobit> is the method that peers pass on their peer list by
01:32:18 <lady-3jane> no, you pretty much just ask everyone else if it's cool
01:32:26 <lysobit> in theory, without a central 'coordinator', the network isn't going to be 'evenly distributed'
01:32:31 <lady-3jane> my memory is foggy, so sorry about a lack of detail
01:32:36 <joepie91> <lysobit>i have yet to find any good documentation of DHT
01:32:39 <lady-3jane> it was several years ago and I haven't touched it since
01:32:41 <joepie91> that is probably because DHT is not one protocol
01:32:54 <joepie91> it's a class of protocols
01:33:05 <joepie91> an example DHT protocol is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kademlia
01:33:14 <joepie91> oh
01:33:15 <lady-3jane> which is the one btt uses
01:33:17 <joepie91> lady-3jane mentioned that
01:33:20 * joepie91 is still reading backlog
01:33:23 <lady-3jane> yus :>
01:33:44 <lysobit> so
01:34:02 <lady-3jane> kademlia is what btt et all use, except vuze. vuze uses their own, but they ship a plugin which does kademlia compatible dht
01:34:16 <lysobit> well, that makes sense, though I suppose I was talking about bittorrent dht
01:34:18 <lady-3jane> aka "mainline dht"
01:34:26 <joepie91> the problem with decentralized without bootstrapping is... how are you going to figure out nodes?
01:34:30 <joepie91> by portscanning every single IP?
01:34:35 <lysobit> joepie91: exactly
01:34:39 <lysobit> it's a major problem
01:34:42 <lady-3jane> ^ that's why they have the bootstrap boxes
01:34:51 <lysobit> there is no good solution
01:34:57 <joepie91> pretty much
01:35:01 <joepie91> it's simply information you don't have
01:35:02 <lysobit> i've read quite a few academic papers on the problem
01:35:05 <lady-3jane> btt dht doesn't touch their shit after the initial spin up...
01:35:06 <joepie91> and have no way of acquiring
01:35:07 <lysobit> and all the solutions are shitty
01:35:08 <joepie91> decentralized
01:35:14 <lady-3jane> aye
01:35:16 <joepie91> lady-3jane: cache probably
01:35:24 <lady-3jane> cache?
01:35:28 <joepie91> hell, if I'm not mistaken WinMX used to do that
01:35:28 <joepie91> yes
01:35:34 <joepie91> bootstrtap via external servers
01:35:36 <lady-3jane> I've lost context
01:35:37 <joepie91> bootstrap *
01:35:40 <joepie91> then keep track of peers
01:35:43 <lady-3jane> oh, yeah
01:35:46 <joepie91> to survive application restarts
01:35:51 <lady-3jane> ohhhhh
01:35:52 <joepie91> cache all peers locally
01:35:55 * lady-3jane gets what you're saying
01:35:56 <joepie91> check if they're still alive after restart
01:35:58 * lady-3jane flails
01:36:03 <lady-3jane> yes
01:36:05 <joepie91> and only fall back to bootstrap server if all known peers are dead
01:36:14 <joepie91> I think WinMX had something like that.
01:36:15 <lady-3jane> and a smart addition would be node trading between active peers
01:36:20 <joepie91> the WPNP protocol
01:36:35 <joepie91> (WPNP is horribly badly documented though, proprietary protocol)
01:36:37 <joepie91> lady-3jane: yes
01:36:41 <lysobit> er
01:36:44 <lysobit> trying to find this paper
01:36:47 <lysobit> on p2p botnets
01:36:52 <lysobit> which had an interesting solution
01:36:56 <lady-3jane> do it, we'll wait :)
01:36:59 <lady-3jane> or, I will
01:36:59 <lady-3jane> :)
01:37:21 <lysobit> but in the mean time, there is something that I am stumped by with the current bitcoin/dht/etc implementatins:
01:37:31 <joepie91> http://xmwx.org/xmwx.wpnp.htm
01:38:14 <lady-3jane> the hard part about dht is that it requires state. that's what you're bootstrapping
01:38:44 <lady-3jane> the tougher question is how would one design a stateless distributed protocol? I'm sure it exists.
01:39:05 <lysobit> When Bitcoin peers pass on their peer lists to other peers, how does the network remain "even" without central coordination? In theory, the first peer, should have a significantly larger amount of peers than the last peer, let's say 10000x, because it has been exposed to the network for longer
01:39:06 <lady-3jane> (probably tons of em, I just don't poke around for such things)
01:39:28 <joepie91> lysobit: I vaguely remember that having something to do with the hashes
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01:39:41 <lady-3jane> yeah there's a randomization in a weighted tree?
01:39:42 <joepie91> similar concept to... redis? sharding
01:39:50 <lady-3jane> that sounds like the right set of words thrown together
01:39:50 <lady-3jane> lol
01:39:59 <osso> lol
01:40:02 <joepie91> haha
01:40:14 <lady-3jane> somewhat ironically, I'm probably pretty close
01:40:23 <lady-3jane> do google and tell me how wrong I am
01:40:24 <lady-3jane> lol
01:40:29 <osso> hey budies.. i'm new here
01:40:30 <joepie91> from memory, so I may be wrong
01:40:35 <osso> brasilian
01:40:43 <joepie91> I think the idea was that based on the peer ID, it would divide users into groups
01:40:46 <joepie91> and pick users from that
01:40:52 LastOneStanding (AnonLOS@5C0B2CEF.B458528D.147E7205.IP) has joined #crytocc
01:40:55 <joepie91> hai osso, welcome to #crytocc, please be sure to read the channel topic
01:41:17 <joepie91> also, be aware that this channel is publicly logged, and you can keep things out of the public logs by prefixing it with [off]
01:41:25 <joepie91> the channel rules are also in the channel topic
01:41:33 <lady-3jane> loggy, pointer?
01:41:33 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T01-41-33
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01:42:03 <osso> yeah.. i already read. I stay 1 hour on that page without know what to do
01:42:22 <osso> after i realize the channels thing
01:43:04 <osso> i think no
01:43:58 <joepie91> yes, that's doing it right
01:44:01 <joepie91> also, what page?
01:46:31 <lysobit> jesus christ
01:46:45 <lady-3jane> Yes?
01:46:46 <lysobit> there has been an _explosion_ in p2p botnet research since the last time i checked 2 years ago
01:47:04 <lady-3jane> I think there's been an explosion in p2p botnet usage, as well
01:47:04 <lady-3jane> :P
01:48:46 <joepie91> certainly an article worth reading: https://moot.it/blog/technology/redis-as-primary-datastore-wtf.html
01:49:41 <lady-3jane> sounds like a "positives outweigh negatives" article
01:49:44 * lady-3jane sets to read
01:49:46 <osso> <joepie91> ... so I do right, because i thinked that i had to put [off] on the name of the channel... like [off]#crytocc
01:49:59 <joepie91> oh
01:50:03 <osso> just put [off] before text?
01:50:06 <joepie91> yes
01:50:07 <lady-3jane> yep!
01:50:12 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
01:50:12 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T01-50-12
01:50:16 <lady-3jane> ^
01:50:20 <joepie91> if you look at that page now, you'll see that "just like this" isn't in there
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01:57:09 <osso> sorry josepie... but i dont understand what u mean to say
01:57:20 <osso> can be because my poor english
01:57:36 <joepie91> lady-3jane : perhaps you can explain better?
01:58:40 <osso> in adicion.. how to link a nickname?
01:59:15 <osso> sorry about my noobies... i'm new
01:59:28 <lysobit> https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/hotbots07/tech/full_papers/wang/wang.pdf
01:59:34 <lady-3jane> link to a username?
01:59:42 <joepie91> I think he means a highlight
01:59:48 <lady-3jane> oh, just type it
01:59:49 <joepie91> / autocomplete
01:59:50 <lysobit> "Due to this phenomenon, connections to servent bots are extremely unbalanced: more than 80% (4000) of servent bots have degrees less than 30, while each of the 21 initial servent bots have a degree between 14,000 and 17,500. This is not an ideal botnet."
02:00:01 <lysobit> >14,000 - 17,500 connections
02:00:07 <lysobit> free ddos :P
02:02:05 <lysobit> anyway, time to sleep
02:02:56 <joepie91> goodnight lysobit
02:03:06 <joepie91> osso: I think that what you mean is also autocompleting
02:03:12 <joepie91> you can do that by typing the first few characters, and then pressing tab
02:03:16 <joepie91> like this:
02:03:18 <joepie91> os<tab>
02:03:24 <joepie91> it will fill in the rest for you
02:03:29 <osso> yeahh
02:03:39 <osso> was this that i want to measn
02:03:51 <osso> and this "/"
02:04:06 <osso> i typed / and your nickmane
02:04:10 <lady-3jane> / is for commands
02:04:16 <lady-3jane> nono, just the name
02:04:20 <lady-3jane> osso:) !
02:04:22 <osso> and appears [RAW]: josepie91
02:04:25 <lady-3jane> os<tab>
02:04:42 <osso> okok
02:04:49 <osso> now i understand
02:04:53 <osso> thaks a lot budies
02:05:13 <lady-3jane> no problem :)
02:06:06 <osso> i found this channel on the freenet
02:06:17 <osso> very interesting
02:06:33 <osso> all this DW shits
02:06:34 <osso> hahah
02:07:49 <lysobit> eh?
02:10:58 <joepie91> osso: DW?
02:11:11 <osso> deep web
02:12:04 <osso> on they call of second layer... we use freenet, and they advise to we use this irc to talk
02:12:20 <lady-3jane> that's interesting
02:13:53 <joepie91> ahh :P
02:13:57 <joepie91> right
02:14:03 <joepie91> yeah, that's probably because Cryto doesn't block TOR
02:16:44 <lysobit> man
02:16:47 <lysobit> i should really go to sleep
02:16:56 <lysobit> but i've been talking to this blind programmer on freenode
02:17:02 <lysobit> pretty interesting
02:17:16 <lysobit> apparantly he makes guis
02:17:22 <lysobit> i don't _think_ i'm being trolled
02:17:33 <joepie91> lysobit: that... is unusual
02:17:54 <lysobit> he says that making the gui is just math and geometry
02:18:16 <lysobit> which actually, makes sense
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02:20:23 <lysobit> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/118984/how-can-you-program-if-youre-blind
02:20:32 <lysobit> okay, time to sleep for reals
02:29:38 <osso> bye too
02:29:43 <osso> peace and love
02:29:46 <osso> haha
02:31:09 <joepie91> night lysobit
02:33:00 <why_slap_option> nigh
02:33:01 <why_slap_option> t
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10:44:33 <monod> lurking with you guys
10:55:27 <norbert79> Bon giorno
10:55:34 <norbert79> come stai
10:56:05 <norbert79> (and just bash me because of my poor Italian :) )
10:56:17 <monod> WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
10:56:18 <monod> hahahah
10:56:26 <monod> I do bash you in the name of the queen.
10:56:32 <monod> fine thanks
10:56:41 <monod> are you working hard today? :)
10:58:19 <norbert79> Hardly :)
10:58:23 <norbert79> but I try to mimic it
10:58:24 <norbert79> :)
10:58:57 <norbert79> I am just grabbing some tunes for my work
10:59:03 <norbert79> http://www.djmix.com
11:02:05 <monod> "Hardly :)" haha lulz
11:02:23 <monod> di-di-di-dinner t-time!
11:02:28 <monod> *afk*
11:06:39 <norbert79> Bon appetit
11:32:14 <monod> ala
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14:22:07 <joepie91> .bitcoin
14:22:07 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $105.72, 1 BTC = €78.60
14:22:49 <joepie91> it's been nice and stable lately
14:23:18 <norbert79> I am still amazed, that Bitcoin is still interesting :)
14:25:02 <joepie91> norbert79: hmm?
14:26:05 <norbert79> It's just still a mistery and seems very unreliable for me
14:26:20 <norbert79> Must be me
14:26:55 <joepie91> how does it seem unreliable?
14:28:07 <norbert79> That it stays alive, or it's exchange rate... it's like something you can't use every day
14:28:10 <norbert79> yet
14:30:03 <joepie91> norbert79: what reason do you see for it not to continue existing?
14:30:26 <joepie91> I mean, the operating costs are effectively zero, the only operating costs come from those using the network
14:30:40 <joepie91> therefore non-usage is not a reason for it to stop existing
14:30:45 <joepie91> (assuming that were the case)
14:31:18 <joepie91> and as for not being able to use it every day; there's actually quite a few things accepting BTC nowadays
14:31:23 <joepie91> even a bunch of online food stores
14:31:25 <joepie91> so, not so sure about that :)
14:31:36 <norbert79> Look, BTC is not something you get as payment for your work, it's very time consuming to understand and find it's value and right now there is no place on the web where I could use it
14:31:52 <norbert79> at least regarding my interested or my place
14:31:52 <joepie91> that's several points
14:32:42 <joepie91> 1. Japanese Yen are also not something you get as payment for your work - that does not discount its existence. There's a few organizations now that pay (part of) their stuff to employees in Bitcoin, if employee so desires.
14:32:47 zxcvbnm (~crack7765@zxcvbnm.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
14:33:55 <joepie91> 2. BTC is less time-consuming to understand than a traditional banking system. If you just want to use it, downloading a client basically suffices. If you go to a bank, you have to read a bunch of documents, get stuff explained to you, etc. If you are interested in the inner workings of the fiat currency system, then good luck figuring out and it's probably going to cost you half a lifetime. With casual reading
14:33:56 <joepie91> and learning, the inner workings of Bitcoin can be picked up in a month.
14:34:13 <joepie91> 3. Are you -sure- that there's no relevant place on the web where you can use it?
14:34:17 <norbert79> Yes
14:34:21 <norbert79> very positive
14:34:22 <norbert79> :)
14:34:38 <zxcvbnm> Looks like I stepped into the right converstaion!
14:34:43 <joepie91> so you've checked all your daily expenses against a list of Bitcoin-accepting merchants?
14:34:48 <norbert79> I can't buy food with it, I pay my hosting with paypal...
14:34:58 <norbert79> Look, my daily is mostly almost food only
14:35:29 <norbert79> but let me ask you the same: where do you pay with BTC
14:35:37 <norbert79> and for what
14:35:47 <joepie91> norbert79: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Consumables
14:35:49 <joepie91> food
14:36:00 <norbert79> Not Italian
14:36:10 <joepie91> ... try actually looking through the list first
14:36:31 <norbert79> None of them applies for me
14:36:34 <zxcvbnm> I don't access domains unless they're in my local country, sry joepie
14:36:58 <norbert79> None of the listed shops are present in my country
14:37:03 <joepie91> also, norbert79: I pay for the Humble Bundle with BTC, I've grabbed a few things from CoinDL in the past, and if I weren't so cheap about my hosting I could've gotten hosting paid in Bitcoin
14:37:15 <joepie91> and that makes up nearly all of my daily expenses
14:37:34 <joepie91> <norbert79>None of the listed shops are present in my country
14:37:41 <joepie91> I'm pretty sure that at least one of them shipped internationally.
14:37:45 <zxcvbnm> bitcoin.hu buy or sell bitcoins with others in Hungary using cash (Hungarian Forint, HUF)
14:38:25 <norbert79> Sure, but that's not the point right now, it's just something I don't wish to use or learn until it spreads more, and shows being reliable
14:38:34 <norbert79> until then I am fine with current currencies :)
14:40:20 <joepie91> norbert79: that's something -very- different from "noone relevant accepts BTC"
14:40:38 <norbert79> Not at all... Does TESCO accept BTC? :)
14:40:43 <norbert79> or generic stores?
14:41:09 <joepie91> wait, are you saying that "I don't wish to use it or learn it" is *not* something different from "noone relevant accepts it"?
14:41:15 <joepie91> that those two phrases are exactly the same?
14:41:30 <joepie91> and what exactly constitutes "shows being reliable" for you?
14:41:46 <norbert79> No, look, why to spend time with something which takes a lot of time and actually gaining basically nothing of it?
14:41:46 <joepie91> how many total economy crashes with Bitcoin happily chugging along are needed to show that?
14:42:35 <norbert79> right now BTC is not being accepted as official currency ...
14:42:36 <joepie91> apart from that not being related to the original point made ("it seems unreliable"), are you aware of the advantages of BTC over typical government-issued currencies?
14:42:43 <joepie91> official by whose standards?
14:43:04 <joepie91> and in what definition of "official"?
14:43:40 <norbert79> Again, as told, until regular stores are not being interested in BTC why should I be doing different? What's the point? I am interested in raising a family, not playing around with something I basically can't use only for maybe exchangin some goods...
14:43:48 <norbert79> Also, let's say I wish to buy an e-book
14:43:57 <joepie91> norbert79: you're running away from the questions and repeating what you said earlier
14:44:00 <joepie91> answer the questions first
14:44:04 <norbert79> I did
14:44:08 <joepie91> no, you didn't
14:44:12 <joepie91> <joepie91>apart from that not being related to the original point made ("it seems unreliable"), are you aware of the advantages of BTC over typical government-issued currencies?
14:44:12 <joepie91> <joepie91>official by whose standards?
14:44:12 <joepie91> <joepie91>and in what definition of "official"?
14:44:26 <norbert79> Can you use BTC in a bank?
14:44:35 <norbert79> can you get your monthly payment in BTC?
14:44:35 <joepie91> that is a question, not an answer
14:44:37 <joepie91> that is a question, not an answer
14:44:42 <norbert79> sure, but that's my point
14:44:46 <norbert79> it has no use
14:44:50 <norbert79> not for every day life
14:44:51 <joepie91> norbert79: I've asked you three questions
14:44:55 <joepie91> you refuse to answer them
14:45:00 <joepie91> instead choosing to repeat how Bitcoin is useless to you
14:45:04 <joepie91> these are basic questions
14:45:06 <norbert79> No, I just don't understand why those questions and how are relevant?
14:45:12 <joepie91> questions that are -not- affected by whether you believe Bitcoin works or not
14:45:21 <norbert79> I go to the store, I use, as you called, government issues currency
14:45:25 <norbert79> period
14:45:30 <norbert79> because they accept that only
14:45:33 <joepie91> norbert79: perhaps you'd figure out why they are relevant if you answered them and let me respond to that?
14:45:44 <norbert79> You are just overcomplicating this
14:45:57 <joepie91> norbert79: you have just indicated that "Bitcoin is still a mystery to you"
14:46:07 <joepie91> what exactly makes you think you are more qualified to judge the relevance of my questions, than me?
14:46:21 <norbert79> yeah... Indeed, but you see I have just spent 15 minutes on the topic and I still clueless :)
14:46:27 <joepie91> norbert79: you know why?
14:46:42 <joepie91> because you're too busy telling me how you're not going to use it and how there's no use in it for you and how it's a mystery and unreliable etc. etc. etc.
14:46:45 <joepie91> to actually have a conversation
14:46:48 <joepie91> and learn the things you didn't know yet
14:47:00 <norbert79> But why should I? What's the point of using BTC?
14:47:20 <joepie91> norbert79: that's what I've been trying to explain to you, but you ignore my questions.
14:47:40 <joepie91> that makes it impossible to explain it accurately.
14:47:56 <norbert79> Nono, you don't get it... Bitcoin is not something you can use for every day use, so why should I spend time into it?
14:48:01 <joepie91> <joepie91>norbert79: that's what I've been trying to explain to you, but you ignore my questions.
14:48:02 <joepie91> <joepie91>that makes it impossible to explain it accurately.
14:48:13 <joepie91> norbert79: you are ignoring my response
14:48:13 <joepie91> again
14:48:18 <joepie91> will you please stop doing that, ffs
14:48:23 <norbert79> Right, I am just aksing what I would gain from it, and you basically call me an idiot, thanks :)
14:48:30 <joepie91> no, I'm not
14:48:31 <joepie91> jesus
14:48:38 <joepie91> norbert79: WILL YOU PLEASE ALREADY FUCKING READ WHAT I AM SAYING
14:48:42 <norbert79> I did!
14:48:44 <joepie91> YOU ARE BEING PURPOSEFULLY THICK RIGHT NOW
14:48:45 <joepie91> no
14:48:48 <joepie91> you fucking didn't
14:48:50 <joepie91> jesus christ
14:48:55 <joepie91> norbert79
14:48:55 <joepie91> listen
14:48:58 <joepie91> listen very carefully
14:49:24 <joepie91> if YOU want to know what the point of Bitcoin is and what the advantages of using it are, then _I_ need to know how far YOUR understanding of Bitcoin reaches and what information about it you are missing
14:49:32 <joepie91> that means that when _I_ ask a question, I need _YOU_ to answer it
14:49:38 <joepie91> instead of constantly saying "but that's irrelevant"
14:49:40 <joepie91> clear enough?
14:50:08 <norbert79> And on the other point is, that you listed a few stores, which are almost all outside of Europe... Why should I then spend time learning about it?
14:50:12 <norbert79> I am serious
14:50:15 <joepie91> okay, I give up
14:50:15 <norbert79> not trolling
14:50:28 <joepie91> norbert79: I don't care whether you're trolling or not
14:50:37 <joepie91> as long as you keep repeating the same question without absorbing the answer
14:50:44 <joepie91> there is absolutely no way I can explain anything to you
14:50:45 <norbert79> What's the win in BTC aside of having a few stores where I could use it... I also question their prices
14:50:46 <joepie91> without going insane
14:50:50 <joepie91> and my time is better spent doing other things
14:50:54 <norbert79> Then do so
14:50:57 <norbert79> It's okay
14:51:15 <joepie91> and norbert79, I strongly recommend you be a bit less fucking defensive
14:51:17 <norbert79> I really thank you for your time, but I really don't get this Bitcoin and I probably never will use it
14:51:56 <joepie91> you are perfectly capable of understanding Bitcoin, but your existing judgment of it being "unreliable" (judged basically by lack of information) and your determination to dislike it from the get-go is what keeps you from even being able to learn more about it
14:52:10 <joepie91> because you see literally EVERYTHING that is said about it by default in a perspective of "bad" and "irrelevant"
14:52:42 <norbert79> Nono, don't get me wrong, I would be interested, but you see we have already spent a lot of time talking about it, and looking at the possibilities where I could use it makes it not really worth spending time on the topic
14:53:05 <norbert79> I mean almost everywhere where I have ordered things from is mostly accwepting regular currencies
14:53:14 <norbert79> Does Paypal work with BTC?
14:53:56 <norbert79> also, as an example...
14:53:58 <norbert79> .bitcoin
14:53:59 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $106.01, 1 BTC = €78.71
14:54:04 <norbert79> so it's 106
14:54:16 <norbert79> ok, so https://www.coindl.com/page/item/450 costs 0.4 BTC
14:54:28 <norbert79> Where the hardcopy here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Original-Counter-Argument-Ratification-Constitution/dp/147745067X
14:54:35 <norbert79> costs $13.49
14:55:03 <norbert79> So why spending 0.4 BTC which makes $42.4
14:55:07 <zxcvbnm> norbert79: For your reading pleasure, Paypal is considering using bitcoin. So, it is possible in the near future it is something you will see in a day to day live. http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/04/24/paypal-president-is-fascinated-by-bitcoin-says-company-is-thinking-about-including-the-virtual-currency/
14:55:10 <norbert79> where I could get a hardcopy for less
14:55:20 <norbert79> zxcvbnm: Nice, that would be interesting
14:56:08 <norbert79> but you see the above example raises questions for me about what I could gain from using BTC
14:56:21 <norbert79> of course that was just one example
14:56:24 <norbert79> from one store
14:56:27 <zxcvbnm> mhm
14:56:35 <zxcvbnm> In the short term, it is not very accessible, IMO
14:56:40 <norbert79> sure
14:56:44 <norbert79> That's my point
14:57:15 <zxcvbnm> In the long term, it is likely a good thing. As an investment, it would be interesting to see where it will settle
14:57:31 <zxcvbnm> The history of its value vs the dollar is quite volatile
14:57:37 <zxcvbnm> from < $1 to > $300
14:57:41 <norbert79> So was the Euro too
14:57:56 <norbert79> but you see right now BTC seems to be more being an expense instead of an investment
14:58:02 <norbert79> at least for me
14:58:19 <norbert79> maybe if I would offer service, then it would be different
14:58:35 <norbert79> but as a regular user and a simple guy it seems more like an expense for me
14:58:36 <zxcvbnm> Unless you're savvy to it, it probably is more of a hassle to try and convert it and find something to do with it
14:58:55 <zxcvbnm> Unless of course you're very concerned about anonymity of your online purchases
14:59:00 <norbert79> but you see, that's the point, I don't have either the financial status or the time for spending time in exchaning it
14:59:09 <zxcvbnm> At which point, the hassle becomes worth it
14:59:13 <norbert79> Look, the stuff you buy must be delivered to you, right? :)
14:59:24 <norbert79> Unless it's digital, then you still need to give and address
14:59:25 <zxcvbnm> Well, if it is something tangible
14:59:25 <norbert79> an
14:59:27 <zxcvbnm> right
14:59:39 <zxcvbnm> There are obvious pros and cons
14:59:41 <norbert79> and right now all digital offers seem to be overpriced for me
14:59:48 <norbert79> check my previous example
14:59:56 <zxcvbnm> To me -- I don't look at it right now as a "better" currency
15:00:05 <zxcvbnm> It is basically just, another currency, albeit new and experimental
15:00:13 <zxcvbnm> I look at it as a investment
15:00:25 <norbert79> it's interesting, but also frightening, that there is no basic control about it. Also it's weird, how bitcoins are mined
15:00:33 <zxcvbnm> http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/08/12/every-important-person-in-bitcoin-just-got-subpoenaed-by-new-yorks-financial-regulator/
15:00:33 <norbert79> but still it's not something which goes more
15:00:40 <zxcvbnm> Regulation is coming
15:00:42 <norbert79> so it's just something mind-bogling for me :)
15:01:07 <norbert79> so right now we could call it as digital gold
15:01:11 <zxcvbnm> mhm
15:01:13 <norbert79> but gold has it's history too
15:01:16 <zxcvbnm> I think thats fair
15:01:20 <zxcvbnm> or
15:01:22 <zxcvbnm> it could be
15:01:29 <zxcvbnm> digital beanie babies
15:01:32 <zxcvbnm> lol :D
15:01:34 <norbert79> and also it confuses me how prices are being defined
15:01:38 <norbert79> or that :))
15:01:42 <zxcvbnm> that confuses me too
15:02:09 <norbert79> so while joepie91 had lost his patience he could have spend time to understand my point too
15:02:11 <zxcvbnm> but, value for a currency is all an idea anyway. some of it is "backed" by gold
15:02:17 <norbert79> the perspective of an every day guy
15:02:21 <norbert79> concerned on his money
15:02:25 <zxcvbnm> mhm
15:02:25 <norbert79> a family guy basically
15:02:42 <norbert79> and these are the every day things I was referring to
15:03:15 <zxcvbnm> Yeah, unless there was an immediate advantage to buying with BTC; like -- a 10% discount
15:03:15 <norbert79> having a few stores is nice, but I could get their products also elsewhere, and probably cheaper
15:03:20 <norbert79> Yes
15:03:22 <norbert79> for example
15:03:41 <norbert79> people need a base where they can compare prices to
15:03:48 <norbert79> like anyone does when buying something abroad
15:03:54 <norbert79> and BTC is trying to ignore all that
15:04:04 <norbert79> which makes it less interesting
15:04:11 <norbert79> and less reliable in the eyes of the people
15:04:18 <zxcvbnm> It is not streamline and mainstream, that much is a fact
15:04:57 <zxcvbnm> So yes, by nature of that fact, unless you're adept at living off the grid and anonymously, day to day use of BTC would likely be more of a hassle than good
15:05:05 <norbert79> Exactly
15:05:12 <zxcvbnm> This is all conjecture, btw.
15:05:24 <norbert79> but still, people are looking for stability
15:05:31 <norbert79> and BTC is right now everything, but stable :)
15:05:50 <norbert79> or being capable for every day usxe
15:05:58 <norbert79> like take a debit card
15:06:05 <norbert79> with a debit card you know what you can expect
15:06:22 <norbert79> if you could make debit cards based on open standards
15:06:24 <norbert79> for BTC
15:06:30 <norbert79> that would give a boost for BTX
15:06:32 <norbert79> BTC
15:06:33 <joepie91> <norbert79>Nono, don't get me wrong, I would be interested, but you see we have already spent a lot of time talking about it, and looking at the possibilities where I could use it makes it not really worth spending time on the topic
15:06:36 <joepie91> and this is exactly the problem
15:06:47 <joepie91> without even understanding Bitcoin, you've already made a conclusion
15:06:53 <joepie91> one that you refuse to be superseded by anything else you may hear
15:06:57 <joepie91> let be*
15:06:59 <norbert79> I only see the prices joepie91
15:07:06 <norbert79> and those doesn't make BTC more charming for me
15:07:17 <joepie91> <norbert79>and BTC is right now everything, but stable :)
15:07:17 <joepie91> <norbert79>or being capable for every day usxe
15:07:26 <joepie91> I would recommend you stop making claims based on lack of knowledge/understanding
15:07:29 <zxcvbnm> norbert79: Aye, regulation is probably ~2 years out for the U.S., probably sooner for EU
15:07:36 <joepie91> <norbert79>so while joepie91 had lost his patience he could have spend time to understand my point too
15:07:48 <joepie91> THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO BY ASKING QUESTIONS THAT YOU THEN DIDN'T ANSWER.
15:07:56 <norbert79> joepie91: Look at the prices... and bitcoin exchange rates are changing way too hectic to call it stable
15:08:05 <joepie91> norbert79: dude
15:08:07 <joepie91> are you blind
15:08:10 <norbert79> no
15:08:11 <joepie91> you are literally doing what I just described above
15:08:17 <joepie91> you're not even REALLY responding to what I said
15:08:21 <joepie91> <joepie91>without even understanding Bitcoin, you've already made a conclusion
15:08:21 <joepie91> <joepie91>one that you refuse to be superseded by anything else you may hear
15:08:29 <joepie91> your conclusion is already made
15:08:32 <norbert79> why should I buy something digital for 3x the price where I could get the same for cheaper and hardcopy?
15:08:42 <joepie91> you are not going to learn anything because you've already made a conclusion, and you try to fit everything you hear in there somewhere
15:08:46 <joepie91> your conclusion is already determined
15:08:53 <joepie91> there is no way to change your conclusion
15:08:56 <norbert79> You still didn't answer my question
15:08:57 <norbert79> why should I buy something digital for 3x the price where I could get the same for cheaper and hardcopy?
15:08:58 <joepie91> your conclusion is based on incomplete data
15:09:06 <joepie91> you have a set conclusion that you refuse to let others alter with more information
15:09:11 <joepie91> have I phrased it in enough variations now to be clear?
15:09:21 <norbert79> and right now you are avoiding the answer
15:09:24 <joepie91> or are you still going to ignore what I am saying?
15:09:29 <joepie91> I am talking about conclusions, not about Bitcoibn
15:09:35 <joepie91> any response that involves Bitcoin is off-topic
15:10:07 <joepie91> did I mention that you have already made up your mind, made a conclusion based on incomplete data, and refuse to let others dispute that conclusion?
15:10:10 <norbert79> joepie91: Again, no offense, but don't analyze me... I was talking about Bitcoin the whole time...
15:10:18 <norbert79> you are just playing Freud right now
15:10:24 <norbert79> go back to the topic please :)
15:10:33 <joepie91> oh, of course, let's throw a personal attack
15:10:39 <norbert79> Lol???
15:10:43 <joepie91> instead of actually trying to acknowledge the problem
15:11:01 <joepie91> <norbert79>you are just playing Freud right now
15:11:03 <joepie91> that nugget there
15:11:07 <norbert79> Read yourself back, you are analyzing me, demonizing my thoughts, which you can't accept.. You are feeling offended because I said something about Bitcoin which you don't like :)
15:11:19 <joepie91> no, you fucking moron
15:11:30 <joepie91> I'm getting frustrated because you REFUSE TO ACTUALLY LISTEN TO ANYTHING ANYONE TELLS YOU
15:11:36 <norbert79> Now let's stop that, ok? You are going too far right now
15:11:40 <joepie91> and still pretend to know more about something you've already admitted not understanding
15:11:46 <joepie91> than someone that DOES actually undersatnd it
15:11:47 <joepie91> no
15:11:48 <joepie91> fuck this
15:11:50 <joepie91> I'm getting tired of it
15:11:58 <joepie91> norbert79: if you claim that you do not understand Bitcoin
15:12:03 <joepie91> THEN STOP TALKING AS IF YOU DO
15:12:20 <norbert79> Why, am I banned not having my thoughts and opinions about it?
15:12:31 <joepie91> literally the entire time you've been talking from a mixed position of "my conclusion is already made" and "I know more about Bitcoin than you"
15:12:33 <norbert79> Think about it, I am a technical guy, regular people are even more clueless
15:12:39 <joepie91> despite explicitly stating earlier on that you didn't
15:12:56 <norbert79> Ok dude, stop... I like you, but you are really going far right now
15:13:01 <norbert79> timeout
15:13:02 <joepie91> norbert79: answer this very simple question
15:13:06 <joepie91> do you understand how Bitcoin works or not?
15:13:09 <joepie91> yes or no?
15:13:29 <norbert79> No, simple enough? I looked at the prices, and I don't like them :)
15:13:47 <norbert79> So my question is still valid
15:13:53 <norbert79> why should I buy something digital for 3x the price where I could get the same for cheaper and hardcopy?
15:13:57 <joepie91> follow-up question, do you understand the practical differences between Bitcoin and government-issued currency, in particular the advantages it provides?
15:13:59 <joepie91> yes or no?
15:14:45 <norbert79> No.. Can I get my payment in BTC? No. Can I use BTC in my country? No... Why should I spend time with it then?
15:14:58 <joepie91> okay, so that was the question I asked you 30 minutes ago
15:15:01 <joepie91> that you refused to answer at that point
15:15:11 <joepie91> <joepie91>apart from that not being related to the original point made ("it seems unreliable"), are you aware of the advantages of BTC over typical government-issued currencies?
15:15:30 <joepie91> norbert79: do you understand what I mean when I say your conclusion is already set, and you're not actually listening to what people say?
15:15:37 <joepie91> it would have been trivial to give that answer back then
15:15:44 <joepie91> and this entire escalation would not have occurred
15:15:46 <norbert79> Yes, but basically you are bashing this question already for thirty minutes basically saying I am an idiot... :)
15:15:49 <norbert79> And I still have no clue
15:15:53 <norbert79> so who is personal?
15:16:01 <norbert79> You have freaked out, not me
15:16:02 <joepie91> norbert79: I would have understood your understanding of Bitcoin (or lack thereof)
15:16:05 <joepie91> and I could have filled in the gaps
15:16:19 <joepie91> instead, you chose to constantly repeat "I SEE NO REASON FOR USING IT" without ever addressing the actual question
15:16:24 <joepie91> do you see the problem here?
15:16:35 <norbert79> No, because I am still not convinced BTC could be any use for me :)
15:16:48 <joepie91> what does "being convinced" have to do with what I just described?
15:17:09 <joepie91> if you believe that my only point in this conversation is to 'convince you', you are mistaken
15:17:12 <joepie91> very mistaken\
15:17:14 <norbert79> Look, are we talking about Bitcoin already or you keep analyzing me, because that is what you do for the past half an hour :)
15:17:40 <joepie91> norbert79: and I get the impression that you're having the entire conversation from the viewpoint that I am someone that is trying to convince you to buy Bitcoins, and you must at all costs protect yourself against that or something
15:17:54 <joepie91> and with that viewpoint, it's not surprising that shit breaks down as it does now./
15:17:55 <norbert79> Wrong
15:17:59 <joepie91> then what?
15:18:05 <norbert79> My viewpoint represents a regular guys one
15:18:13 <norbert79> working daily and feeding a family
15:18:31 <joepie91> I am talking about your viewpoint with regards to this conversation, not your viewpoint with regards to Bitcoin.
15:18:51 <norbert79> who tries to understand this whole BTC thing and why it is sooo cheerished where the prices are way higher than in regular currencies
15:19:10 <joepie91> so why are you not answering the questions I ask, then?
15:19:24 <joepie91> if I've even explicitly indicated that answers to those questions are necessary to give you a good understanding of Bitcoin?
15:19:26 <norbert79> Because you keep analyzing me dude :D
15:19:43 <norbert79> You are not a shrink, and I am not your patient :)
15:19:55 <norbert79> so again, what's the deal with BTC? :)
15:20:24 <joepie91> if you do not want me to try and gain an understanding of how far your understanding of Bitcoin reaches - in order to be able to give you useful information
15:20:28 <joepie91> then by all means read a static source
15:20:30 <joepie91> such as Wikipedia
15:20:32 <joepie91> or the Bitcoin paper
15:20:42 <norbert79> read it, I am still not really understanding the points
15:20:53 <norbert79> I see only the exchange rates changing rapidly
15:20:53 <joepie91> if you want a generic source of information that you have to spit through, where you have to fill in the blanks on your own
15:20:56 <joepie91> then perhaps that's a better choice
15:20:57 <norbert79> I see the prices
15:21:17 <norbert79> we are talking about money, a form of digital currency, right?
15:21:24 <norbert79> So something to use for buying and selling
15:21:27 <joepie91> norbert79: otherwise, it might be wise to understand that I try to give information that is useful to *you* rather than acting as a human Wikipedia, and to do so I need information as to your current knowledge
15:21:27 <norbert79> right?
15:21:31 <joepie91> and therefore need answers to the questions I ask
15:21:51 <joepie91> if you do not appreciate those questions, then by all means ask someone else that copypastes Wikipedia for you.
15:21:58 <norbert79> Look, you are familiar with it, not me... Why I shall answer questions, why not you answer mine?
15:22:05 <norbert79> But that still doesn't help :)
15:22:20 <joepie91> norbert79: for some reason you seem to fail to understand that the answering of your questions, is dependent on your answering of mine
15:22:28 <norbert79> I mean why shall I invest money into something which currency rate changes more radically, than the currency of Zimbabwe?
15:22:41 <joepie91> so again, if you do not appreciate those questions, then by all means ask someone else that copypastes Wikipedia for you.
15:22:56 <joepie91> if you want to continue to get information from me, then answer the questions
15:23:03 <joepie91> and I can give you a more useful answer than Wikipedia does
15:23:03 <norbert79> Well, that will sure make BTC more charming for anyone on the world outside of the Internet, right_? :)
15:23:28 <joepie91> not seeing any willingness to answer questions.
15:23:30 <norbert79> Look, this goes nowhere, you are analying me, defenindg yourself and you still refuse to answer my every day related questions
15:23:30 <joepie91> brb dry dishes.
15:23:37 <norbert79> Jesus Christ dude...
15:23:50 <norbert79> Get a family, then you understand my point of view too
15:24:25 <ElectRo`> the internet wasnt built over night
15:24:30 <norbert79> Sure, but still
15:24:33 <ElectRo`> neither is btc
15:24:34 <norbert79> think about it
15:24:42 <norbert79> I am a technical guy
15:24:47 <norbert79> think about regular people
15:25:00 <norbert79> their first questions would be: How much is my money worth in BTC?
15:25:11 <norbert79> and if you answer them it changes on a minute basis
15:25:17 <norbert79> they will instantly drop it
15:25:38 <norbert79> compared to known currencies BTC seems very radical
15:25:49 <norbert79> and people rely on stable currencies
15:26:37 <norbert79> remmeber, I know what I am talking about it: Hungary had the biggest hyperinflation on the world... Not even Zimbabwe beat us there :D
15:27:08 <norbert79> .bitcoin
15:27:09 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $106.91, 1 BTC = €78.70
15:27:20 <norbert79> almost a change of $1
15:27:24 <norbert79> that makes 300 HUF
15:27:27 <norbert79> that's a lot
15:28:03 <norbert79> if fuel prices change even 25 US cents people go crazy
15:28:09 <norbert79> now imagine the same in BTC
15:29:45 <ElectRo`> i think people have gotten use to the swings
15:30:15 <ElectRo`> for the most part things have been steadier than past months
15:30:18 <joepie91> <norbert79>Get a family, then you understand my point of view too
15:30:41 <norbert79> ElectRo`: BTC must become even more stable
15:30:49 <norbert79> ElectRo`: To raise interest
15:30:53 <joepie91> oh sure, I'll just work on building a family for a few years, for the sole purpose of 'understanding your viewpoint' which couldn't be done through more reasonable means, because you refused to answer a few simple questions
15:30:58 <joepie91> sounds like a perfect idea!
15:31:04 <ElectRo`> clearly raising a kid makes you a wizard
15:31:39 <norbert79> I think there is a generation gap there... But you will understand when your first child is born, I am sure, I don't mind if you don't take me seriously right now. You will understand later.
15:32:02 <joepie91> norbert79: no, there is no generation gap here
15:32:10 <joepie91> and it has absolutely nothing - and I mean NOTHING - to do with children or family
15:32:31 <joepie91> it solely has to do with your refusal to answer a few basic questions, the answers of which I need to understand how far your understanding of Bitcoin reaches
15:32:32 <norbert79> You are very wrong there. It has everything to do with family and how you feed them and how you pay the bills.
15:32:43 <joepie91> norbert79: you're completely ignoring the bigger issue
15:32:47 <joepie91> the issue isn't Bitcoin
15:32:52 <norbert79> I don't see it as an issue there, you do :)
15:32:55 <joepie91> the issue is the fact that you don't want to learn about Bitcoin, yet claim you do
15:33:01 <joepie91> and that doesn't go togeher
15:33:03 <joepie91> and just ends up wasting my time
15:33:12 <joepie91> and that has absolutely -nothing- to do with family or children
15:33:14 <norbert79> Go on, carry on with your regular things :)
15:33:19 <norbert79> I am not holding you back
15:33:45 <joepie91> and seeing as you apparently like generic non-tailored information
15:33:47 <norbert79> I don't mind if you ignore all my questions, it's all fine... I will not like you less because of that
15:33:48 <joepie91> here you go: http://falkvinge.net/2013/04/03/why-bitcoin-is-poised-to-change-society-much-more-than-the-internet-did/
15:35:34 <norbert79> "There is no central bank. This is a revolutionary concept. People can trade cash at a distance without going through an intermediary." - This remind me of the problem with gold back in the middle ages too, where gold was exchanged at a different level everywhere, that's where central exchange rates have been started being introduced
15:36:23 <MK_FG> Probably enforced by folks with a lot of gold, like kings?
15:36:40 <MK_FG> So that their hoards won't get devalued overnight
15:37:01 <norbert79> Again, the process would be no different, sooner or later it must become somehow centralized
15:37:09 <norbert79> otherwise it will never become stable
15:37:20 <MK_FG> Why should it be?
15:37:28 <norbert79> some could just change the value of something overnight, because there is no central control
15:37:47 <norbert79> Just think of 1929
15:37:50 <norbert79> Similar thing happened there
15:38:23 <norbert79> of course the whole thing was different, the main point was, that something with value lost it's value in a blink of an eye
15:38:40 <norbert79> financial control must exist
15:38:48 <ElectRo`> mtgox monopoly is slowing declining and more and more exchanges are popping up
15:39:14 <norbert79> No system could exist without proper control, I think history has proven that many times
15:39:40 <joepie91> (see? and this is why generic non-tailored information doesn't work)
15:39:48 <ElectRo`> in other btc news, you can make some serious money if you get into the asic market
15:39:57 <ElectRo`> current manufactures are horse shit
15:40:03 <joepie91> ElectRo`: meh, doubtful
15:40:16 <joepie91> I don't think the ASIC hype will last very long
15:40:30 <joepie91> and if you want to compete with existing manufacturers, the hype is what you'll need to build on
15:40:44 <MK_FG> norbert79, "No system could exist without proper control" - they do, they just don't exist in the same state for long, they evolve and change ;)
15:41:17 <MK_FG> norbert79, I think it's rather the case that *with* "proper control" systems exist in a highly suboptimal fossilized state
15:41:22 <norbert79> but you see making more BTC makes exchange rate making a house losing it's value by tenth for example.. That's why financial control must exist. Regular currencies are produced under strict controls
15:41:37 <norbert79> I think different
15:42:27 <joepie91> norbert79: see? that generic non-tailored information I gave you, however useful it may normally be, didn't actually teach you anything
15:42:33 <norbert79> I like that the capitalistic systems looks for changes, but right now what I see is, that all old ideas are just binned... And I don't like that. People dealing with BTC and who understand it shall analyze how regular markets work, how the financial system works
15:42:35 <joepie91> it only gave you more questions, doubts, and things to disagree with
15:42:36 <MK_FG> norbert79, BTC production is controlled by math, you can't just issue it
15:42:41 <joepie91> and hasn't improved your understanding
15:43:09 <joepie91> and THAT is why I refuse to give you information without first understanding how far your current knowledge goes, and what it consists of
15:43:31 <norbert79> MK_FG: Calculations and breaking cyphers improve with every day... Some math problems are resolved much faster, than back then, so basing your producing of coins on such is highly unstable in my point of view
15:45:50 * joepie91 sighs
15:46:21 <joepie91> norbert79: all. of. these. things. have. been. taken. into. account. in. the. design. of. bitcoin. but. you. don't. know. because. you're. too. busy. saying. it. sucks. to. learn. how. it. works.
15:46:32 <ElectRo`> let me know when they break sha256(sha256(x))
15:46:46 <MK_FG> norbert79, True, btc-tailored ASICs coming to market caused some stir, probably not as much as that "hey, btc is rising, invest!" bubble of late ;)
15:47:20 <norbert79> MK_FG: I am just saying, that I am right now not convinced that the basic idea is good as itis
15:47:23 <norbert79> it is
15:47:51 <norbert79> Right now there are so many supercomputers out there... Also, a few years ago MD5 was considered safe
15:48:10 <MK_FG> Heh, no
15:48:30 <MK_FG> md5 was considered safe only by idiots even a few years ago, I think
15:48:37 <MK_FG> Being pretty much broken in 1996
15:48:43 <norbert79> Ok, let's say 10 years ago then :)
15:48:49 <norbert79> But you get my point
15:48:53 <MK_FG> Yeah
15:49:12 <MK_FG> To transfer cash from overseas for some gig though, btc is cool
15:49:19 <norbert79> Sure
15:49:25 <norbert79> I hardly would disagree with that
15:49:32 <norbert79> I find Paypal also cool
15:49:43 <norbert79> made my life hundred times easier
15:50:05 <MK_FG> If it works in your country and you can stand the risk of it freezing your acc for whatever reason...
15:50:16 <ElectRo`> ive only have had issues with paypal
15:50:35 <ElectRo`> but elon musk is a smart man
15:50:46 <MK_FG> It's actually coming to russia these days, in september or so iirc
15:50:48 <norbert79> MK_FG: hmm, sure, that is a valid point, but still, BTC is stored how?
15:50:59 <norbert79> MK_FG: I mean you can't bring it in your vallet
15:51:16 <MK_FG> Heh, neither paypal
15:51:24 <norbert79> Sure, but Paypal is relying on a currency
15:51:28 <MK_FG> You have password-like private key for btc
15:51:37 <ElectRo`> theres paper wallets for btc
15:51:45 <MK_FG> Which can be accepted by any other btc user, not any central bank
15:52:02 <joepie91> <norbert79>MK_FG: I mean you can't bring it in your vallet
15:52:04 <joepie91> of course you can.
15:52:22 <norbert79> Nice, but still what makes me not faking the amount of my BTC coins? I mean I could pretend, that I have lot more, right?
15:52:28 <MK_FG> Yeah, actually you can, yeah ;)
15:52:40 <MK_FG> Print keys on paper, fold, done ;)
15:52:45 <norbert79> lol
15:52:51 <MK_FG> norbert79, No, you can't
15:52:56 <norbert79> And why?
15:53:13 <MK_FG> That "pretend" must be signed by sha256 hash with 8 \0 bytes
15:53:22 <MK_FG> (or 6? don't remember)
15:53:24 <norbert79> Issued by whom?
15:53:35 <MK_FG> And be in a public log, recognized by all other miners
15:53:46 <MK_FG> Heh, see? You're interested in how it works ;)
15:53:57 <norbert79> I am just trying to understand as told
15:54:26 <norbert79> If I look at a device I am not instantly taking it apart, I am looking at it first :)
15:54:37 <MK_FG> Well, imagine 10 people who don't trust each other want to exchange stuff
15:55:27 <norbert79> Ok, but what makes me not being able to use a new key and spread that and claiming I have 10.000 coins for example?
15:55:45 <norbert79> the keys must be stored centrally, right?_
15:55:50 <MK_FG> Nope
15:55:59 <MK_FG> It has public transaction log that every client has
15:56:30 <norbert79> Sure, but what makes me pretending all their logs are wrong?
15:56:34 <norbert79> I am just playing with theories
15:56:49 <norbert79> Like a DNS poisoning
15:56:50 <MK_FG> Every entry in that log is *public* (async ecc crypto) "from" and "to" keys and amount
15:57:02 <MK_FG> Every such entry is called "block"
15:57:21 <norbert79> ok, but again, what makes me not able faking those transactions?
15:57:29 <MK_FG> Every such block also has a random nonce
15:57:58 <MK_FG> And every valid block, by protocol convention, should have sha256 hash with like 8 \0 bytes at the beginning
15:58:13 <norbert79> so there is a maximum limit of coins then, probably.. Who counts what is the maximum?
15:58:23 <MK_FG> So to produce "valid" block, you have to vary nonce, until you get correct hash
15:58:51 <MK_FG> Also, every block hash hash of previous block in it
15:58:54 <norbert79> sure, but transactions could be faker then too
15:58:57 <norbert79> fake
15:59:11 <norbert79> so is there a limit of maximum coins?
15:59:19 <ElectRo`> 21 million is the maximum amount of btc
15:59:23 <norbert79> Ok
15:59:30 <norbert79> and who counts that? Where is that stored?
15:59:35 <joepie91> approximately 21 million *
15:59:38 <MK_FG> They can be, if such block is accepted by others and signatures match
16:00:36 <norbert79> who controls the maximum number of coins then?
16:00:59 <MK_FG> norbert79, But see, if evilguy-1 wants to say "norbert79 gave me 100 BTC", he has to sign stuff with your private key, as "norbert79 has 100 BTC" only because previous blocks mention that someone transferred these to your public key
16:01:10 <norbert79> sure, I get that
16:01:16 <MK_FG> norbert79, Hence, evilguy-1 can't forge a valid block like that
16:01:21 <norbert79> but who controls the maximum number of coins then?
16:01:29 <MK_FG> New coins, right
16:01:52 <MK_FG> Each new block has a "special" key that gets N (fixed amount) BTC from nowhere
16:02:12 <norbert79> but could that be faked?
16:02:16 <MK_FG> Everyone calculating block hash, naturally, will insert their own key there
16:02:39 <MK_FG> So that they gets these for their hard work of calculating hash
16:03:17 <norbert79> brb, need to catch my bus
16:03:21 <MK_FG> And valid blcks must be some N (fixed by protocol) minutes apart (at minimum) iirc
16:03:34 <lady-3jane> ooh, a decent discussion
16:03:58 <MK_FG> So you it's not only hard to make 1000 blocks with valid hashes in line, no one will accept these either
16:04:06 <MK_FG> (because they're not these N mins apart)
16:04:08 <lady-3jane> I suppose it would have been nice to have me here, damn
16:04:12 <lady-3jane> too bad I just woke up haha
16:04:13 <MK_FG> (or are in the future)
16:04:44 <MK_FG> norbert79, See ya! But seriously, paper probably describes it better than me
16:05:01 <lady-3jane> yeah btc paper is very accessible
16:05:22 <MK_FG> norbert79, So you might want to read that one after all, to get a reply, esp. if I decide to be lazy to type ;)
16:09:03 <MK_FG> lady-3jane, Sadly, you're late ;)
16:09:38 <MK_FG> Also, note the drama ;)
16:09:54 <joepie91> lady-3jane: I don't doubt that the discussion will resume at a later point
16:10:05 <lady-3jane> I'll avoid reading up then, for the moment
16:10:06 <lady-3jane> lol
16:10:16 <lady-3jane> loggy, pointer?
16:10:16 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T16-10-16
16:10:21 * lady-3jane got this
16:12:38 <MK_FG> lady-3jane, "how would one design a stateless distributed protocol?" <-- other issues aside, it'd be horribly insecure ;)
16:13:02 <lady-3jane> right!?
16:13:07 <lady-3jane> that's been the fucking issue
16:13:11 <lady-3jane> lol
16:13:13 <MK_FG> Why'd you want one though
16:13:31 <MK_FG> Just get good-enough thing where knowng any one peer would be enuff for bootstrap
16:13:35 <lady-3jane> because that would remove the issue of centralization for bootstrapping
16:13:46 <MK_FG> You don't have to centralize it!
16:13:51 <lady-3jane> I know
16:13:54 <lady-3jane> did you read the logs?
16:13:56 <MK_FG> Just make it possible to bootstrap from anyone!
16:14:00 <MK_FG> Yep!
16:14:05 <ElectRo`> all these protocols, that are built on top of the internet :(
16:14:09 <MK_FG> (maybe not too attentively)
16:14:17 <lady-3jane> peer exchange over dht + local caching would be sufficient
16:14:21 <lady-3jane> that's what we ended with
16:14:27 <MK_FG> I'd say nope
16:14:40 <lady-3jane> how would you do better, and why
16:14:51 <MK_FG> New peers in that scheme would have to go to some central thing then, I assume
16:14:58 <lady-3jane> no
16:15:09 <lady-3jane> you ship the peers you're connected to
16:15:21 <MK_FG> I'd make it so that there're no hard-coded "central" peers and one can get peer anywhere, e.g. from any website or irc
16:15:28 <lady-3jane> so rather than bootstrapping every time, you only hopefully have to bootstrap your dht shit once
16:15:44 <MK_FG> Right, but shipping them from one location you have them basically be the center
16:15:54 <MK_FG> So when someone downloads package a year later...
16:16:07 <MK_FG> ...and they all go down by then, they're screwed
16:16:12 <lady-3jane> I don't understand what the issue you're pointing out is
16:16:46 <MK_FG> Ok, you have a package, e.g. "my-network-suite"
16:16:48 <lady-3jane> (or perhaps more accurately, I don't understand /why/ it's an issue)
16:17:06 <MK_FG> You put it on some site, e.g. sourceforge or github
16:17:16 <joepie91> <ElectRo`>all these protocols, that are built on top of the internet :(
16:17:18 <joepie91> ?
16:17:20 <MK_FG> Do you hardcode some bootstrap peers in, like bittorrent does?
16:17:37 <lady-3jane> they hardcode their bootstrap box
16:17:44 <lady-3jane> router.utorrent.com iirc
16:17:45 <MK_FG> Yep, they do
16:18:01 <lady-3jane> hmm, oh
16:18:03 <lady-3jane> I think I see
16:18:19 <lady-3jane> so the issue is there would be no updated peer lists after a year because nobody would be touching the bootstrap
16:18:23 <lady-3jane> haha yeah that'd be an issue
16:18:33 <lady-3jane> hmm
16:18:51 <MK_FG> I'd think in a year that "router.utorrent.com" might go bust
16:19:12 <lady-3jane> I bet not, but it's a good problem to try and tackle
16:19:13 <MK_FG> And it'd be /dev/null, so yeah, let users bootstrap from any node and type any such one themselves
16:19:30 <lady-3jane> hmm
16:19:43 <MK_FG> So that e.g. when they go to TEH Pirate Bay, there's a note "hey, here's a peer"
16:19:44 <lady-3jane> would you, say, do peer packages a la oneswarm?
16:20:04 <lady-3jane> you manually add key/peer lists for that one
16:20:15 <MK_FG> And if you go to #crytocc and ask "hey, need torrents, gimme peers", we can give our urls ;)
16:20:18 <MK_FG> Yeah
16:20:36 <MK_FG> I think it's done in quite a few darknet projects that way
16:20:41 <lady-3jane> hmm
16:20:43 <lady-3jane> yeah
16:20:52 <lady-3jane> that's a good idea except absolutely nobody will do it
16:20:53 <MK_FG> Like cjdns, where it's also persistent peers
16:21:07 <lady-3jane> it's not user transparent enough, I think
16:21:11 <MK_FG> So that there's also some level of accountability for e.g. giving out peers to spammers
16:21:17 <MK_FG> True dat ;)
16:21:29 <lady-3jane> it's why we put up with bootstrapping now
16:21:30 <MK_FG> Users can't be relied upon to type anything these days, it seems ;)
16:21:35 <lady-3jane> it's not the best idea, but it generally works
16:21:55 <MK_FG> Unless, you discount these as lost cause anwyay ;)
16:22:00 <lady-3jane> I wonder if there is dht router software around
16:22:13 <lady-3jane> because it'd be neat to run third party routers
16:22:32 <lady-3jane> same for supernodes
16:22:34 <MK_FG> I think I've seen a few for original kad
16:22:42 <MK_FG> GhostWhiteCrab or something like that
16:22:44 <lady-3jane> I could only find one supernode software
16:23:07 <lady-3jane> my box is on real internet now, so it's gonna be a tracker and dht superpeer if I can helpit
16:23:19 <MK_FG> I remember setting it up a while ago for ed2k kad-only node, but don't recall succeeding
16:23:25 <ElectRo`> joepie91: i was referring to the darknets that use the existing internet to work
16:23:29 <joepie91> I think WinMX is relevant here
16:23:37 <joepie91> to show how manual peer addition can serve as a fallback
16:23:38 <joepie91> a fallback that works
16:23:46 <joepie91> WinMX was shut down in 2005
16:23:50 <joepie91> through the RIAA
16:24:04 <joepie91> and within a few days, a community patch was released
16:24:07 <joepie91> on a non-official site
16:24:08 <lady-3jane> NP: [The Dandy Warhols - Bohemian Like You] [Thirteen Tales From Urban Bohemia] [977kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
16:24:15 <joepie91> that had a replacement cache server coded into it
16:24:29 <joepie91> to use the new cache server, users had to manually find, download, and install the patch
16:24:47 <lady-3jane> man that makes my skin crawl lol
16:24:50 <joepie91> even today, 3 different community patch groups later, the network is still very much alive
16:25:04 <joepie91> despite having been officially shut down for 8 years
16:25:11 <joepie91> and there not having been any updates to the client since... 2004?
16:25:17 <joepie91> (because noone has the source..)
16:25:37 <joepie91> if manual peer input is used as a fallback mechanism, I think it certainly *can* work
16:25:39 <MK_FG> Yeah, actually it's probably better idea to just do forks and start distributing these with new hardcoded peers, if network is public
16:25:51 <joepie91> so you could use bootstrap servers by default, and then fall back to manual peer entry IF the bootstrap servers go down
16:26:01 <joepie91> <ElectRo`>joepie91: i was referring to the darknets that use the existing internet to work
16:26:02 <MK_FG> Indeedy
16:26:09 <joepie91> current darknets do not technically require the "internet"
16:26:18 <joepie91> there's just no other physical infra available
16:26:18 <joepie91> :p
16:26:27 <MK_FG> Sometimes there is!
16:26:37 <joepie91> not worldwide at least
16:26:37 <lady-3jane> and it's probably used when there is
16:26:46 <joepie91> in Spain, there's a pretty big meshnet
16:26:46 <joepie91> afaik
16:26:49 <MK_FG> Not worldwide, yeah
16:26:53 <MK_FG> And in .de too
16:26:54 <lady-3jane> I'm loving the meshnetwork stuff people are doing
16:27:01 <MK_FG> Freufunk or something like that
16:27:14 <MK_FG> Also https://wiki.projectmeshnet.org/List_of_Mesh_Locals
16:27:20 <MK_FG> (for cjdns-based ones)
16:27:21 <lady-3jane> it makes me want to make wifi network infrastructure and chaosboxes
16:28:14 <MK_FG> chaosboxes?
16:28:15 <lady-3jane> hmm, so is gnutella's dht the same as bittorrent's?
16:28:18 <lady-3jane> yes
16:28:30 <lady-3jane> locked down shell boxes that don't keep track of users or anything
16:28:36 <MK_FG> Oh, yeah
16:28:38 <lady-3jane> usually openbsd or so
16:28:58 <MK_FG> That had so many incarnations, sad that still not that accessible or alive in any of them
16:29:03 <lady-3jane> you install the OS and bash/znc/irssi and walk away
16:29:09 <lady-3jane> yeah
16:29:43 <MK_FG> I'm actually putting one in a nearby house soonishly, when my beaglebone black arrives...
16:30:02 <lady-3jane> :3
16:30:41 <lady-3jane> hmm
16:30:51 <lady-3jane> funny that the day I decided to go riding it's sunny in the morning
16:33:00 <lady-3jane> oh right
16:33:01 <lady-3jane> hahahaha
16:33:06 <lady-3jane> I wrote a grid system and forgot about it
16:33:15 <lady-3jane> I suppose I should write a site...
16:33:26 <MK_FG> Grid grid?
16:33:38 <lady-3jane> css
16:33:57 <MK_FG> Oh, lesser grid grid ;)
16:33:57 <lady-3jane> and wrote is a misnomer, more like stole and renamed and fixed
16:34:11 <MK_FG> lesser write lesser grid grid
16:34:18 <lady-3jane> but I have to write a site on it so I remember how it works
16:34:25 <lady-3jane> maybe put it on my example paeg
16:34:27 <lady-3jane> page
16:34:28 * MK_FG just invented his own retard-speak
16:34:49 * lady-3jane chucks you off the cliff like sparta
16:35:14 <MK_FG> Damn fascists
16:35:41 <lady-3jane> hmm
16:35:54 <lady-3jane> The creator isn't the bootstrap; the default bootstraps are located at router.utorrent.com and router.bittorrent.com. For a user to add himself as the bootstrap for the torrent, he needs to modify the torrent to include a `nodes' list in the root dictionary where each element in the list is an IP:port combination that acts as a DHT bootstrap.
16:35:54 <lady-3jane> If the default bootstraps for DHT die, then you can add to µTorrent's torrent jobs list a torrent with a `nodes' list that contains known-to-be-working bootstraps. µTorrent will use those nodes as DHT bootstraps.
16:36:59 <lady-3jane> sounds like I need a bootstrap box
16:36:59 <lady-3jane> :>
16:37:57 <MK_FG> Bittorrent doesn't seem to going out of bussiness just yet
16:38:14 <MK_FG> *be
16:38:20 <lady-3jane> µTorrent doesn't create a nodes key automatically, no. I'm not sure it's really a question of "should." Unless you have a real reason to believe router.utorrent.com will be inaccessible soon-ish, you don't need to need to manually add your own clients as bootstraps.
16:38:21 <lady-3jane> Yes you can, though, if that's what you're getting at. Oh, and the entries in the nodes key don't need to have IPs -- it can contain domain names (so if you don't have a static IP, you can still use your own computers as bootstraps if they have domain names).
16:39:13 <MK_FG> Huh, they even have some auth baked into bootstrap?
16:39:37 <lady-3jane> no?
16:39:49 <MK_FG> Oh!
16:40:01 <MK_FG> "node's key" is not *that* key ;)
16:40:05 <lady-3jane> the node key is the dictionary in the head of the .torrent which lists the bootstrap peers
16:40:16 <lady-3jane> optionally present
16:40:16 <MK_FG> I thought it was about some x509 cert or something ;)
16:40:19 <lady-3jane> nah
16:40:25 <MK_FG> Yeah, just name/ip
16:40:35 <lady-3jane> and port, yeah
16:40:40 <lady-3jane> in a dictionary
16:40:41 <lady-3jane> :>
16:41:21 <MK_FG> Yep, why the hell not ;)
16:43:55 <lady-3jane> YES
16:44:07 <lady-3jane> JCH WROTE A DHT BOOTSTRAP PEER
16:44:07 <lady-3jane> YES
16:44:10 <lady-3jane> SO MUCH YES
16:44:22 <lady-3jane> problem: solved
16:45:01 <lady-3jane> I fuckin love this guy
16:45:24 <lady-3jane> this page, man. http://www.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~jch/software/bittorrent/
16:45:32 <lady-3jane> so much good stuff
16:45:52 <lady-3jane> he wrote the dht that transmission and shareaza use
16:46:09 <lady-3jane> and tixati
16:46:11 <lady-3jane> and ktorrent
16:46:13 <lady-3jane> hahahahahaha
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16:51:48 <MK_FG> Oh yeah, I remember looking up his work, starting from polipo
16:52:11 <MK_FG> Then looked at the site where it was hosted and saw distributed routing and stuff
16:52:19 <MK_FG> Really fun person!
16:53:20 <lady-3jane> yeah
16:53:24 <lady-3jane> hekate is my shit
16:53:38 <lady-3jane> I'm excited about finally having a box I can run it on
16:55:19 <ElectRo`> im suppose to writing a paper
16:55:27 <ElectRo`> this internet thing is getting in the way
16:56:50 <joepie91> ElectRo`: see, if this were AnonOps, you could have asked for someone to 'disable' your internet connection for a while...
16:56:50 <joepie91> :P
16:56:56 <joepie91> (I remember that actually happening in #lounge)
16:57:00 <MK_FG> Hahah
16:57:19 <MK_FG> It sounds like internet-bdsm
16:57:27 <joepie91> another common tactic was a temporary zline
16:57:28 <joepie91> on request
16:57:43 <joepie91> "I need to finish this essay and AnonOps is distracting me, mind zlining me for 5 hours or so?"
16:57:54 <ElectRo`> ive been re reading the btc wiki
16:58:04 <ElectRo`> when im suppose to be writing a paper on NAS
16:58:14 <joepie91> ElectRo`: write a paper on btc!
16:58:14 <joepie91> :P
16:58:16 <joepie91> anyway, bfb
16:58:18 <joepie91> brb, even
16:58:39 <MK_FG> ElectRo`, Stand up, make coffee, chill out for a few mins...
16:58:50 <MK_FG> ElectRo`, ...then go back and do whatever you wanted to
16:58:57 <MK_FG> (not the internet thing)
16:59:16 <MK_FG> I find it easier to change tracks with unrelated break in-between
16:59:58 <ElectRo`> podcast i listen to is about to start streaming
17:00:11 <ElectRo`> and i think im going to shake a window in win7
17:00:47 <MK_FG> Right, maybe you've had enuff coffee and sugar as it is...
17:01:10 <ElectRo`> none yet
17:03:06 <MK_FG> Did you fall into a vat of coffee as a child?
17:03:21 <MK_FG> (just checking)
17:04:11 <ElectRo`> i was drinking coffee and soda way to much
17:05:44 <Ari> ElectRo`: get joepie91 to zline you :P
17:07:16 <lady-3jane> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4yfWRscHz0
17:07:36 <lady-3jane> work music :>
17:10:36 <lady-3jane> from tcx, oh man
17:10:37 <lady-3jane> https://twitter.com/8bitf0x/status/367309214227525633/photo/1
17:10:42 <lady-3jane> so much win
17:26:10 <MK_FG> "Fe*d-splaining" Example: "You'd totally change your position on this privacy issue if you had the right security clearance"
17:26:24 <MK_FG> "Get a family, then you understand my point of view too"
17:26:31 <MK_FG> Just saying
17:27:28 <lady-3jane> lel
17:27:41 <lady-3jane> I understand their point of view without the security clearance
17:27:43 <lady-3jane> how queer is that? :D
17:36:12 <MK_FG> Qeer enuff to be beaten up by redneck ruskies, I'd say
17:41:59 <joepie91> ohai Ari
17:42:42 <joepie91> lady-3jane: rofl
17:43:12 <Ari> sup :3
17:44:09 <lady-3jane> lol, I grew up with those
17:44:14 <lady-3jane> well, redneck polskis anyway
17:44:29 <lady-3jane> (polaks? hahaha I'm told I shouldn't use that term)
17:47:06 <MK_FG> Hm, they're called polaks here... and that's actually the only thing they're called here
17:47:24 <MK_FG> Never heard of it being insulting or anything
17:47:53 <lady-3jane> I was told never to call anyone that
17:48:06 <lady-3jane> but, it was what we called people where I grew up
17:48:10 <lady-3jane> apparently it's insanely racist lol
17:48:35 <MK_FG> Well, apparently not in russian! :)
17:48:57 <lady-3jane> I used to make jokes cause we drove by a town called "Pollock Pines" and I used to joke that it was Polak Pines
17:48:58 <lady-3jane> lol
17:59:52 <MK_FG> Wow, I didn't realize hyperloop was modelled after burrito tunnel until reading twitters
18:00:57 <ElectRo`> to bad logical ideas never seem to work in the real world
18:02:06 <MK_FG> Damn you Nature!!!
18:03:35 <MK_FG> I wonder if it'll work on some scale though, apparently not-that-insane guy pumps money into it
18:06:58 <ElectRo`> i hope some other countries uses that design
18:07:27 <ElectRo`> and rubs in in california's face
18:07:31 <ElectRo`> it
18:07:55 <MK_FG> Heh, like UK to it's Aussie colony ;P
18:08:16 <MK_FG> (was in that movie a year ago)
18:08:42 <MK_FG> On an unrelated note from twitters - I'm sure this will end well - http://americablog.com/2013/08/russia-olympics-gay-safety-athletes-sochi.html
19:35:17 <monod> hi guys
19:35:38 <monod> I don't understand: what are you making the internet like?
19:38:16 <monod> I mean: do you just talk of existing things relating the internet - or is here a conversation about new inventions and ideas about the internet? (And if both, I'm asking for the latter ones first)
19:40:15 <monod> loggy, pointer?
19:40:15 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-08-13#T19-40-15
19:40:19 <monod> btw
19:40:43 <monod> what about putting a bot called "loggy, pointer?" just to activate autocompletion? :D lulz
19:40:59 <lolpwn> lol
19:54:10 <joepie91> monod: not possible
19:54:11 <joepie91> the bot thing
19:54:20 <joepie91> space is not allowed in nickname :)
19:54:35 <joepie91> plus most clients would suggest 'loggy' before 'loggy, pointer?' anyway
19:55:22 <monod> for the latter, that's no problem, just ,+Tab
19:55:30 <monod> but for the former: ok, no way then :D
19:59:03 <monod> got to go, I'll be reading you guyz on the logz
19:59:15 monod has quit (User quit: Cya men)
20:03:30 <norbert79> Evening
20:04:51 <lady-3jane> man, riding 4 miles to campus, all up hill
20:04:57 <lady-3jane> that shit is hard
20:05:03 <lady-3jane> it'll be easy in another couple runs
20:05:22 <joepie91> http://rt.com/usa/google-gmail-motion-privacy-453/
20:05:28 <joepie91> Google: Gmail users â??have no legitimate expectation of privacyâ??
20:06:03 <norbert79> Lovely
20:06:15 <norbert79> Time to move my own mailing to a private SMTP
20:06:21 <norbert79> and run my own XMPP
20:07:59 <Ari> ugh
20:08:01 <Ari> see
20:08:05 <Ari> I don't even really care
20:08:06 <Ari> whatever
20:08:09 <Ari> gov can read my emails
20:08:14 <MK_FG> "If you don't want everyone to see what you're doing, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place" -- Eric Schmidt (from memory)
20:09:41 <lolpwn> hell yes. https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=567153056643438
20:09:55 <zxcvbnm> o_O
20:10:45 <lolpwn> that'd be the best mcdonalds commerical
20:11:13 <lady-3jane> I let gandi run my mail
20:11:34 <lady-3jane> I dunno if it's a good idea, but it seems like a better idea than gmail
20:22:13 skill3r (skill3r@developers.developers.developers) has joined #crytocc
20:22:16 <skill3r> ohai
20:22:28 <ElectRo`> im liking fastmail for a gmail alt
20:23:43 <joepie91> meh, still hoste
20:23:47 <joepie91> hosted *
20:25:46 <skill3r> http://www.neowin.net/news/lavabit-founder-if-you-knew-what-i-know-about-email-you-might-not-use-it
20:35:19 <lady-3jane> there was one in florida too
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20:38:10 <lady-3jane> you know what bothers me? wildcard ssl certs are not cheap
20:38:28 <lady-3jane> it's like BAM 250k in insurance, but fuck I don't want that
20:38:34 <lady-3jane> how about 0$ in insurance
20:39:24 <lady-3jane> anybody have a CA they like?
20:39:43 <lady-3jane> my cert's up in 10 days, which is why I'm looking :D
20:39:59 <joepie91> `openssl genrsa`
20:40:05 <joepie91> is my favourite CA
20:40:20 <joepie91> (yes I know that's technically incorrect, stfu, don't spoil the joke)
20:41:03 <lady-3jane> no CA gives horror stories in browsers, can't do that
20:42:02 <lady-3jane> we don't have enough people running convergence for that
20:42:47 electro (electro@13BD45F.B2256668.ABD06C46.IP) has joined #crytocc
20:43:40 <electro> ummmm hiccup over
20:43:44 <electro> all is well
20:48:15 <lady-3jane> ugh
20:48:18 <lady-3jane> who doesn't suck :|
20:49:59 <lady-3jane> I may just email entrust again and see how their ecc certs are coming
20:53:06 <MK_FG> Do browsers suport these?
20:56:58 <lady-3jane> browsers that support tls1.1 do, which is chrome
20:57:10 <lady-3jane> firefox 24+ supports too, but is disabled by default
20:57:32 <lady-3jane> finally nss (ff's tls/crypto shit) does tls1.1 and 1.2, but it is again disabled by default
20:57:58 <lady-3jane> rumors that IE11 will support tls1.1 and 1.2, which means they will also support ecc keys
21:01:06 <electro> ecdhe_rsa and rc4_128 with tls 1.2 on https://pay.reddit.com/
21:01:12 <electro> entrust cert
21:01:56 <electro> im using the latest chrome beta
21:12:28 <lady-3jane> well, there went chrome
21:12:46 <lady-3jane> ecdhe_rsa is the key exchange mechanism, has nothing to do with the cert
21:13:28 <lady-3jane> yeah see the cert is sha1+rsa
21:15:53 <lady-3jane> but, yes, entrust issued it :P
21:15:53 <electro> thats what i figured after the fact
21:16:15 <electro> ecc support has a long ways togo :<
21:16:19 <lady-3jane> and it's funny that you're on tls1.2 because none of those things are tls1.2 features
21:16:35 <lady-3jane> ecdhe_rsa and rc4 are 1.0
21:16:39 <lady-3jane> lmao
21:17:01 <lady-3jane> now if you were running camelia_cbc, then it'd be a 1.2 feature
21:17:17 <electro> ive seen a couple of camelia_cbc
21:17:26 <electro> but its mostly rc4 everywhere
21:17:30 <lady-3jane> (camelia got added into 1.2 because it won some .eu cipher competitions)
21:17:36 <lady-3jane> yeah
21:17:39 <lady-3jane> camelia is hot
21:17:55 <lady-3jane> it optimises decently in both software and hardware
21:18:05 <lady-3jane> not WELL, but decently
21:18:15 <lady-3jane> anyway
21:18:26 <lady-3jane> hmm I wonder what my site does
21:18:38 <lady-3jane> yeeee
21:18:41 <lady-3jane> not too bad
21:18:55 <lady-3jane> tls1.2 aes_128_cbc sha256 ecdhe_rsa
21:18:59 <lady-3jane> that's not too shabby
21:19:27 <electro> not sha1 [check] but cbc
21:20:09 <lady-3jane> nope
21:20:25 <lady-3jane> cbc isn't an issue with tls1.1 and 1.2
21:20:28 <lady-3jane> only 1.0
21:21:20 <lady-3jane> the mitigation for cbc issues (some sort of null iv thing I forget) were specced into 1.1 and 1.2... but most clients don't support them yet
21:21:25 <lady-3jane> hence scary words around cbc
21:22:00 <lady-3jane> seems like chrome 29 or so is gonna do 1.2 shipping
21:22:04 <lady-3jane> which I'm super excite about
21:22:16 <lady-3jane> and I fucking wish firefox would flip it on
21:22:18 <lady-3jane> but they're being cunts
21:22:20 <electro> so tls 1.1/2 solves beast?
21:22:24 <lady-3jane> yes
21:22:34 <lady-3jane> 1.1/1.2 are not vuln to beast
21:22:56 <lady-3jane> but since the ciphers vuln to beast work in 1.0, and 1.0 clients do not have the mitigation, it's still an issue
21:22:57 <electro> not enough pressure was put onto the browsers
21:23:19 <electro> i dislike the step backwards for rc4
21:23:26 <lady-3jane> I want ecc cert support and tls1.2 preferred... yesterday
21:23:31 <lady-3jane> rc4 is broken
21:23:34 <lady-3jane> pretty much
21:23:39 <electro> i want ecc in my openvpn
21:23:45 <lady-3jane> you can get it, I think
21:23:49 <lady-3jane> try uh
21:23:53 <lady-3jane> openvpn-nl
21:23:57 <electro> key exchange
21:24:00 <lady-3jane> yes, dutch feds made it
21:24:06 <lady-3jane> it uses polarssl instead of openssl
21:25:10 <lady-3jane> yeah vpn shit needs some work still
21:25:18 <lady-3jane> I wish browsers would step up their game a bit more though
21:25:28 <lady-3jane> we're getting there, but jeez is it slow
21:25:38 <electro> eix -I openvpn
21:25:44 <electro> whoops
21:25:44 <lady-3jane> it's a lot of bitching though
21:25:57 <electro> i think the patent is holding it back
21:26:02 <lady-3jane> for example, f5's bigip ssl terminators had a bug with tls1.x
21:26:07 <lady-3jane> yeah that too
21:26:08 <electro> i should fork putty
21:26:20 <lady-3jane> someone needs to buy them and dedicate to public or something
21:26:34 <lady-3jane> or do like google is and fight others in court so they can be used
21:26:57 <lady-3jane> If you do gov work, ecc isn't hard
21:27:11 <lady-3jane> you talk to the NSA and they have an unlimited license for all ecc
21:27:33 <lady-3jane> they sell em to gov contractors and agencies pretty fuckin cheap too
21:28:17 <lady-3jane> but that comes with being the purveyors of nsa suite b
21:28:27 <lady-3jane> which is basically what I want supported in all tls capable client software
21:28:37 <lady-3jane> (and server software)
21:28:54 <lady-3jane> suite b is what we're aiming for
21:31:03 <electro> my pdf/ folder is too big
21:33:01 <lady-3jane> never
21:33:24 <electro> its a clusterfuck too
21:33:28 <electro> so many whitepapers
21:33:34 <lady-3jane> same here :P
21:34:02 <electro> i read one whitepaper and end up opening 5 other references
21:34:09 <electro> then i forget where i started
21:34:34 <lady-3jane> :3
21:40:04 <zxcvbnm> thats how those things go..
21:40:50 <lady-3jane> ugh compiling anything qt based
21:40:58 <lady-3jane> so much kill-me-now
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21:42:40 <electro> i think libreoffice is much much worse
21:42:56 <electro> chromium / gcc use to be bad on a core2
21:43:43 foolex (foolex@E6A8C7AF.6A97939C.CEC56216.IP) has joined #crytocc
21:46:21 <lady-3jane> it's funny because libreoffice is much better than it used to be
21:46:49 <lady-3jane> most of their work right now is paying down a decade of debt
21:48:20 Raging (Raging@57C0825B.A22BC5F5.4CD50A38.IP) has joined #crytocc
21:48:46 <Raging> Hello
21:49:36 <lady-3jane> massive dicks
21:49:37 Raging has quit (Connection reset by peer)
21:49:43 <lady-3jane> success!
21:53:14 <zxcvbnm> sexess
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22:05:14 Raging (Raging@C415DA85.A22BC5F5.4CD50A38.IP) has joined #crytocc
22:09:33 <electro> i sorta want to recreate whonix with my current systems
22:13:36 Ishaq has quit (Ping timeout)
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22:29:16 <lady-3jane> mmm
22:29:20 <lady-3jane> old music
22:30:20 <lady-3jane> NP: [Nelly Furtado - ....On The Radio (Remember The Days)] [Whoa, Nelly!] [1005kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
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22:53:32 <lady-3jane> http://americablog.com/2013/08/russia-olympics-gay-safety-athletes-sochi.html > agh, we're fucked
22:53:45 <lady-3jane> MK_FG:) get your country's shit together, jeez
22:54:24 norbert79 has quit (Ping timeout)
22:54:54 <MK_FG> Yeah, already scheming together an insurrection on friday
22:56:09 <MK_FG> You might be surprised at how many people who're usually also got totally raped by this gov are kinda-patriots (in russian way) and strongly support it
23:01:28 <lady-3jane> :/
23:02:17 norbert79 (Norbi@cryto-433DB954.pool.digikabel.hu) has joined #crytocc
23:05:11 <MK_FG> There's also openly nazi posters on the streets all around these days, and last I talked to a bunch of known people, was surprised a lot at how openly xenophobic they seem to be after some recent local events
23:05:55 <MK_FG> It's kinda weird, but meh, maybe I'm just noticing this stuff a bit more, or maybe we're heading in an interesting direction... ;)
23:07:52 <MK_FG> Scary thing about nazi posters is that it's propaganda for soonish elections... it's like they get politics backwards or something
23:10:50 <MK_FG> lady-3jane, wrt tls, you mean that ecdsa sigs in certs are part of tls1.1, right?
23:13:16 <MK_FG> Also, I'd think that "disabled support for 1.1" wouldn't necessarily translate into "support for all 1.1 features, if enabled", but openssl probably learned these things long ago, so don't really see why not myself...
23:13:37 <MK_FG> Still, curious, haven't really seen certs with ecc in the wild
23:16:48 Ishaq (Ishaq@cryto-6C73979.rf.usr.sh) has joined #crytocc
23:29:11 <joepie91> http://cms.fightforthefuture.org/barrett-brown/
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23:41:03 <Ari> Russia's gonna have a yolocaust
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23:55:25 <joepie91> hm
23:55:27 <joepie91> .startgh
23:55:31 <botpie91> Now watching GitHub for users joepie91, iceTwy, FichteFoll, cam1337, codetalkdev, shiny.
23:55:35 <joepie91> there we go
23:57:22 <MK_FG> It'd be "fun" if Obama and Putin decide to start a small war to get internal situation under control