Cryto! 7 April 2013

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02:25:53 <MK_FG> AnonyOps, You should definitely use jquery - ;)
02:27:01 <AnonyOps> lol
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06:31:30 <Cryto508> Hi ?
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10:36:04 <twitchyliquid64> hai
10:36:11 <twitchyliquid64> VPS died again :/
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12:03:07 *** SpaghettiCode changed the topic to: "Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICLY LOGGED CHANNEL. |, | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Online Flash IDE: | Cryto Research: | RIP Aaron Swartz"
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12:04:17 <joepie91> meh
12:04:19 <joepie91> kernel panic on hub
12:04:21 <joepie91> should be resolved
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12:48:35 <joepie91> sigh
12:48:39 <joepie91> SKYLORD: read the topic, please
12:49:04 <joepie91> and you might want to turn off your caps lock
12:49:27 <SKYLORD> what topic
12:50:10 <joepie91> the channel topic...
12:50:18 <joepie91> it should be at the top of the page
12:51:22 <SKYLORD> what it say  i don't see nothing
12:53:00 <SKYLORD> what my anon bro
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12:55:52 <joepie91> ugh
12:55:58 <joepie91> - Topic: Cryto Coding Collective | THIS IS A PUBLICLY LOGGED CHANNEL. |, | Rules: no Anonymous, no cracking, no drama | Online Flash IDE: | Cryto Research: | RIP Aaron Swartz
12:56:02 <joepie91> @ SKYLORD
12:57:41 <SKYLORD> ok got u rip Aaron Swartz he was the best
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13:08:50 <AnonyOps> Hi joepie!
13:09:53 <joepie91> hai AnonyOps
13:10:15 <AnonyOps> How's you?
13:12:57 <SKYLORD> i am fine
13:13:44 <joepie91> AnonyOps:
13:13:45 * joepie91 sighs
13:14:26 <AnonyOps> lol...
13:14:44 <AnonyOps> He might be 12
13:14:44 <AnonyOps> haha
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13:40:02 <twitchyliquid64> Hai joepie91
13:40:12 <twitchyliquid64> havent coded (cept uni work) for over a month
13:40:14 <twitchyliquid64> :/
13:40:33 <joepie91> hai twitchyliquid64
13:40:35 <joepie91> D:
13:40:54 <twitchyliquid64> I have some ideas though
13:41:12 <twitchyliquid64> and uni is filling alot of holes about how things should be done
13:41:21 <twitchyliquid64> and also alot about UNIX
13:41:33 <twitchyliquid64> but most of all
13:41:44 <twitchyliquid64> there is a subject about information systems conceptually
13:42:14 <twitchyliquid64> VERY interesting and it puts the requirements of a system, and the development methodology, in perspective
13:42:57 <twitchyliquid64> and also how to properly document things
13:43:07 <twitchyliquid64> regardless, I have some project ideas
13:43:16 <twitchyliquid64> fortunately nothing massive like previous ideas
13:43:25 <twitchyliquid64> but hopefully, Ill know how to do them RIGHT
13:43:32 <twitchyliquid64> joepie91, ack
13:48:51 <joepie91> righ
13:48:53 <joepie91> right *
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16:05:22 <Cryto076> hi
16:05:29 <Cryto076> umm did anonymous team hacked
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16:12:41 <lady-3jane> twitchyliquid64:) my favorite thing from *nix (mostly only in really old apps, these days) is making as few assumptions about the environment as possible
16:13:38 <lady-3jane> I am always just fucking delighted when some program doesn't even expect to have disk access (either it will wait forever for the data it wants, or it's something that pops into ram, chroots, and never touches a thing again)
16:34:06 <lady-3jane> NP: [Lady GaGa - Teeth] [The Fame Monster] [1028kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
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18:25:21 <SKYLORD> what up my anon bro
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18:30:26 <DrWhat> \cash in your btc
18:30:35 <DrWhat> Rates are $160
18:30:57 <DrWhat> ast price:$161.24999
18:30:57 <DrWhat> High:$162.90000
18:30:57 <DrWhat> Low:$142.10000
18:30:57 <DrWhat> Volume:52191 BTC
18:30:57 <DrWhat> Weighted Avg:$151.87254
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18:46:13 <joepie91> DrWhat: Bitcoins are not something you "cash in", they're something you "exchange"
18:46:28 <joepie91> SKYLORD, I'm pretty sure I told you to read the topic
18:48:16 <DrWhat> Still
18:48:26 <DrWhat> WHY SO HIGH
18:48:36 <DrWhat> In 24 hours it got $100 incress
18:48:43 <DrWhat> Who hacked mtgox again
18:48:47 <DrWhat> XD
18:49:01 <lady-3jane> because the "cost" of bitcoins has to be able to contain all the real world money to be traded at the same time
18:49:18 <lady-3jane> to contain all the real world value being transferred
18:49:27 <lady-3jane> the price of bitcoins is completely irrelevant
18:49:54 <lady-3jane> I can't figure out a better way to say the first one
18:50:48 <lady-3jane> like there are X bitcoins right now, and people want to transfer Y of real world currencies, so bitcoin must increase in cost to be able to contain all of those transactions at once with the currently available number of bitcoins
18:51:39 <joepie91> lady-3jane, nail on the head
18:51:52 <joepie91> DrWhat, I actually have some reading material for you that explains this
18:52:20 <joepie91> DrWhat:
18:53:08 <lady-3jane> yeah
18:53:45 <lady-3jane> I was going to say, we did some rough calculations and if you tried to encapsulate the entire US debt in bitcoin you could do it with 8 zeros behind the decimal (as there are currently) and still have denominations of a penny
18:53:51 <lady-3jane> that is immpressive if nothing else
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18:54:35 <lady-3jane> You'd probably want more zeros at that point, for sure, but the point is a good one
18:55:36 <lady-3jane> this is the interesting thing to me
18:55:37 <DrWhat> usa debt is 18 trillion isnt it?
18:55:44 <lady-3jane> something like that
18:55:50 <lady-3jane> 15-17? that's the numbers I remember
18:55:57 <joepie91> also, DrWhat, you have to realize that right now, we're in the second bitcoin boom
18:56:11 <joepie91> the first bitcoin boom was mass awareness amongst techies
18:56:20 <joepie91> suddenly, many many people came to know of its existence
18:56:29 <joepie91> but at that point, it was widely criticized because people weren't used to it
18:56:40 <joepie91> this is the second bitcoin boom - more and more people are realizing that it *might* actually work
18:56:44 <joepie91> that it *might* actually benefit *them*
18:56:55 <joepie91> and that it's still alive, and has survived everything that has been thrown at it
18:57:06 <joepie91> this is basically the period of the first mainstream acceptance
18:57:16 <joepie91> where people become comfortable with having Bitcoin within arms reach
18:57:23 <joepie91> even if they're not very actively using it
18:57:37 <joepie91> and I think Wordpress, Reddit, Namecheap, etc. have contributed to that a lot
18:57:41 <joepie91> by starting to accept it
18:57:58 <DrWhat> So...
18:58:12 <lady-3jane> the most important thing to me is to realize this (sidenote: I should write this up): when we used gold, it could encapsulate all transactions world wide. We dropped the gold standard because that became a problem. Bitcoin to me performs similarly as good (as a convertible and transferable but otherwise useless good), but does not have the problems of "dollar overhang" as gold did (due to bitcoin being infinitely divisible or quite close to
18:58:13 <lady-3jane> it)
18:58:23 <DrWhat> Are you basicly saying that bitcoin is fast becoming the unofficial officcal internet currency?
18:58:58 <lady-3jane> that's not so far off, DrWhat
18:59:01 <lady-3jane> :P
18:59:24 <lady-3jane> perhaps it might be better to say "unofficial official exchange of value"
18:59:28 <joepie91> also, bwahahahaha:
18:59:29 <joepie91> The normal reaction for a government would be to use its entire arsenal of force against any phenomenon that threatens the governmentâ??s ability to function to this degree. But bitcoin is resilient to that. There is no central point to shut down. You canâ??t point a gun at a prime number and expect things to change.
18:59:30 <DrWhat> If it isnt already
18:59:36 <DrWhat> and if it isnt offical
18:59:38 <joepie91> brilliantly worded
18:59:52 <joepie91> DrWhat: I would not call it an 'internet currency'
18:59:56 <joepie91> it's a 'cryptographical currency'
19:00:08 <joepie91> the internet is just an effective means to convey the relevant information
19:00:14 <joepie91> it technically doesn't rely on it
19:00:16 <lady-3jane> exchange of value medium is my favorite phrase, to keep currency out of it
19:00:16 <DrWhat> free currency?
19:00:17 <joepie91> (no really, it doesn't)
19:00:24 <DrWhat> Unoffical offical free currency?
19:00:40 <joepie91> what meaning of 'free' do you mean?
19:00:47 <lady-3jane> currency brings to mind things for people, things that need not necessarily be true for bitcoin
19:00:48 <joepie91> there's a few ways that word can be interpreted
19:00:48 <joepie91> :P
19:01:07 <DrWhat> open and avalible free?
19:01:11 <joepie91> lady-3jane: 'trade instrument'
19:01:17 <lady-3jane> essentially
19:01:20 <joepie91> DrWhat: free as in free speech, free software, ..?
19:01:23 <joepie91> if that, then yes
19:01:24 <DrWhat> yes
19:01:25 <lady-3jane> libre is perhaps what he means
19:01:30 <DrWhat> avalible without limits
19:01:33 <joepie91> accessible, extensible, unrestricted
19:01:34 <joepie91> yes
19:01:38 <joepie91> then it is indeed free
19:01:41 <DrWhat> ^
19:01:50 <DrWhat> yeah thats why im trying to get at
19:01:51 <joepie91> lady-3jane: I think 'libre' has gotten 3 meanings by now as well
19:01:53 <lady-3jane> you want to know what I'm loving right now?
19:01:59 <DrWhat> the unoffical offical free currency
19:02:08 <joepie91> every time some new synonym is invented for a subset of 'free', three different groups of people jump on the new synonym to try and claim it as theirs
19:02:10 <lady-3jane> that the biggest mining pool is taking steps to make sure they can not 51% attack
19:02:15 <joepie91> the 'as in' thing works quite well to solve that issue :P
19:02:24 <joepie91> DrWhat: kinda, yes
19:02:27 <joepie91> lady-3jane: oh?
19:03:02 <lady-3jane> joepie91:) yeah. btcguild or w/e is making policy changes to make sure they cannot be harmful to the ecosystem. You'll probably find the thread before me, ha
19:03:58 <joepie91> lady-3jane: too busy reading to dig up the thread atm
19:04:00 <joepie91> but, that's interesting
19:04:13 <ryan> joepie91: you can point a gun at a bitcoin client dev
19:04:14 <ryan> and things can change rather drastically
19:04:14 <lady-3jane> I'll try to find it
19:04:33 <lady-3jane> fork code -> ????
19:06:00 <joepie91> ryan: I don't know about that
19:06:10 <lady-3jane> joepie91:) found it
19:06:11 <joepie91> there seems to be starting to be more of a divide in terms of what clients people use
19:06:16 <joepie91> that was a horrible sentence
19:06:17 <joepie91> but yeah
19:06:40 <lady-3jane> It's not a full answer, but they're trying to come up with ways to make sure they cannot have that power
19:06:56 <ryan> releasing an update for the official bitcoin client and taking over the network wouldn't be that hard
19:06:58 <ryan> especially since most of the people will be downloading the binaries
19:07:50 <lady-3jane> which, fail or success, shows me that in some cases some free market actions can be somewhat altruistic
19:08:21 <lady-3jane> which is not something I've observed before
19:08:44 <lady-3jane> though in this case of course it does massively benefit the leader of the pool to make sure the system keeps trust
19:09:34 <joepie91> ryan: it's likely that this will happen at some point, but only once
19:09:40 <joepie91> (and likely reversed shortly afterwards)
19:09:52 <joepie91> that said, there's not much you can do with bitcoin clients alone
19:09:54 <joepie91> other than fuck with broadcasts
19:09:58 <ryan> how can you reverse it if everybody is running the backdoored code
19:10:00 <joepie91> if the miners are still running different code...
19:10:02 <ryan> aside of using the broadcast thing
19:10:18 <ryan> even though
19:10:19 <joepie91> same way the blockchain fork was resolved
19:10:33 <ryan> blockchain fork became very obvious quickly
19:10:36 <ryan> and at an early phase
19:10:48 <ryan> but lets say the backdoor in the binary activates once a certain block is mined
19:10:56 <lady-3jane> interestingly, I think the system becomes more resilient to just these sorts of attacks as it increases in size
19:10:57 <ryan> and by then most of the network has updated
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19:11:31 <lady-3jane> you're working on some really huge assumptions there
19:11:40 <ryan> what huge assumptions?
19:11:53 <lady-3jane> that nobody except devs are checking code
19:12:01 <ryan> you don't have to backdoor the code
19:12:03 <ryan> just the binary
19:12:04 <lady-3jane> at a minimum
19:12:17 <lady-3jane> how does one do that with signed binaries?
19:12:17 <ryan> the amount of people who compile from source will be minimal
19:12:31 <ryan> by pointing guns at people, of course
19:12:31 <joepie91> hmm... ryan, wouldn't that cause incompatibilities in how the network functions?
19:12:35 <ryan> joepie91: hm?
19:12:45 <ryan> how do you mean
19:12:49 <joepie91> afaik it would effectively be a giant ringing alarm bell as soon as said backdoor code activates
19:12:50 <joepie91> well
19:12:51 <ryan> yes
19:12:52 <joepie91> there's a set algorithm
19:12:59 <joepie91> the developers are likely to run compiled from source versions
19:13:03 <ryan> but at that point you can hurt the network alot
19:13:12 <joepie91> as soon as the entire network of binaries switches over to backdoored code
19:13:13 <ryan> and rolling back a lot of blocks is very difficult
19:13:19 <joepie91> all the source-compiled clients will go batshit insane
19:13:22 <joepie91> idk
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19:13:40 <joepie91> I mean, in theory it's a realistic attack scenario
19:13:47 <ryan> you could just steal everybodys bitcoins
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19:13:50 <joepie91> in practice, I suspect it will be possible to just roll back the network
19:13:52 <ryan> and cause a massive shitstorm
19:13:56 <joepie91> yes, exactly because of that shitstorm
19:14:12 <Cryto100> ㅗㅑ
19:14:13 <lady-3jane> I'd make the claim that even if this whirlwind scenario took place, it would neither stop nor kill the bitcoin network
19:14:15 <Cryto100> nihao
19:14:21 <ryan> but then that proves that bitcoin isn't any better than fiat currencies
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19:14:34 <ryan> if a large amount of transfers caused by a rogue client can be just 'rolled back'
19:14:35 <lady-3jane> no it doesn't
19:14:36 <ryan> by someones decision
19:14:42 <ryan> that's bad
19:14:45 <ryan> and shouldn't happen
19:14:46 <lady-3jane> we've already proven triple entry accounting
19:14:52 <joepie91> ryan: they can only be rolled back by social agreement
19:14:55 <lady-3jane> that has already beat fiat
19:15:00 <joepie91> social agreement is easy to gain if loads of people lost their money
19:15:04 <ryan> joepie91: true
19:15:04 <joepie91> or it's otherwise chaotic
19:15:07 <joepie91> and I think this is an unsolvable flaw, tbh
19:15:13 <joepie91> people are influencable
19:15:24 <joepie91> so no matter how technically solid your system is, as long as you can influence the right people...
19:15:29 <ryan> that flaw doesn't exist with physical currencies though
19:15:30 <joepie91> and the right amount of people...
19:15:36 <joepie91> it does, actually
19:15:37 <lady-3jane> ^
19:15:42 <joepie91> but there "the right people" are those that control the banking systems
19:15:47 <ryan> you will have real hard time pointing guns at a million people
19:15:53 <joepie91> with Bitcoin, "the right people" are those that run a client or miner
19:16:01 <joepie91> that's a significantly higher bar
19:16:02 <ryan> of course banks make currencies much less secure
19:16:07 <lady-3jane> all I'd have to do is point a gun at the head of the federal reserve chairman
19:16:13 <lady-3jane> one person, not 7
19:16:16 <ryan> lady-3jane: what could he do?
19:16:19 <joepie91> lady-3jane: no
19:16:26 <joepie91> you'd probably be pointing your gun at the sysadmins at banks
19:16:33 <ryan> but is that a physical currency?
19:16:39 <ryan> it's a thing on a hard drive
19:16:50 <joepie91> ryan: well, tbh, nowadays physical currency does not really exist anymore
19:16:57 <joepie91> coins and notes have become physical representative tokens
19:16:58 <ryan> true
19:17:00 <joepie91> for the digital money
19:17:01 <joepie91> so to say
19:17:04 <joepie91> not currency in themselves
19:17:16 <ryan> but bitcoin didn't exist either a couple of years back
19:17:51 <joepie91> I think it started to exist in... 2009?
19:17:59 <joepie91> not sure
19:18:01 <ryan> thereish
19:18:01 <joepie91> I suck at dates :P
19:23:32 <lady-3jane> this is not going to make any sense, but I'll try and write this up :D
19:24:14 <lady-3jane> I think I had too much coffee, but I want more so my focus will not improve
19:24:16 <lady-3jane> :D
19:47:26 <lady-3jane> I think I will reboot my computer and try to learn i3
19:47:30 <lady-3jane> and also install a sb audigy live 24bit
19:47:44 <lady-3jane> cause am not using win7 anymore, so my OS supports it
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21:22:00 <lady-3jane> tiling window managers are fuckin sweet
21:29:34 <joepie91>
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21:51:52 <scaepy> [off ]let`s dare the night
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