Cryto! 16 February 2013
00:13:15 <wh1t3r4bb1t> good morning
00:18:52 <wh1t3r4bb1t> loggy, pointer?
00:18:52 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/2013-02-16#T00-18-52
00:19:41 <wh1t3r4bb1t> loggy, yesterday?
00:26:38 <wh1t3r4bb1t> After a good sleep I'm ready to figure out this PDO crap.
00:27:04 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Seems like NOBODY uses postgresql.
00:27:27 * wh1t3r4bb1t thinks about using mySQL instead
00:33:26 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: many people use postgresql, just usually not with PHP
00:33:27 <joepie91> anyway
00:33:30 <joepie91> re: all
00:33:34 <joepie91> useful reference table for MySQL users: http://help.scibit.com/mascon/masconMySQL_Field_Types.html
00:34:01 <joepie91> to make sense of the mysql type mess
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00:45:05 <wh1t3r4bb1t> loggy, pancakes?
00:53:08 <wh1t3r4bb1t> joepie91, should I be using a different server side language to interact with postgresql?
01:01:46 <joepie91> loggy doesn't make pancakes, sorry
01:01:51 <joepie91> and well, I don't really see why
01:02:03 <joepie91> regardless of what language you use, postgresql usage will be roughly the same
01:10:06 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I've been searching endlessly for info on PDO PostgreSQL and can find only minimal or incorrect documentation. It seems like people either have no idea what they are talking about, are shity teachers or just want this whole PDO PostgreSQL knowledge to be secretive. Every single article I read provides non-working code. I learn best from the exact code examples. Seems like there are none.
01:11:25 <wh1t3r4bb1t> All of the examples that actually work are pg_ examples.
01:12:07 <wh1t3r4bb1t> So, I'm starting to wonder if maybe the PDO for postgres isn't coveted.
01:13:11 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I know it's a standardized method but I can't get PDO to work with posgre but I can get it to work using mysql.
01:14:25 <wh1t3r4bb1t> And I'm using the exact same code only switching out the connection parameters from mysql: to pgsql:
01:16:08 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: have you changed the syntax
01:16:10 <joepie91> to be postgresql syntax
01:16:16 <joepie91> of the actual SQL statements I mean
01:16:29 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Yes
01:16:42 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I'm using very basic statements that are universal
01:17:32 <joepie91> then I have no idea
01:17:33 <wh1t3r4bb1t> INSERT INTO accounts (account_num, user_id, btc_balance, currency_balance, currency_code) VALUES (1360942681339123, '1', 0, 0, 'USD')
01:17:39 <joepie91> have you tried dropping by in ##php
01:17:40 <joepie91> ?
01:17:41 <joepie91> on freenode
01:17:46 <joepie91> hm
01:17:48 <joepie91> try replacing ' with "
01:17:49 <joepie91> ?
01:18:30 <wh1t3r4bb1t> The documentation on PGSQL says use single quotes.
01:18:42 <joepie91> oh wait
01:18:45 <joepie91> I'm confusing something
01:18:48 <joepie91> enclose the field names in "
01:18:51 <joepie91> not the values
01:18:59 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I will be extremely pissed off to discover that the information on the postgress site is false.
01:19:16 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: the postgresql site says use " around names
01:19:17 <joepie91> so, try that
01:19:18 <joepie91> :p
01:19:31 <wh1t3r4bb1t> The syntax shown is without any quotes on the field names
01:19:45 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Hmmm
01:19:47 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Link
01:19:48 <wh1t3r4bb1t> ?
01:20:02 <joepie91> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Things_to_find_out_about_when_moving_from_MySQL_to_PostgreSQL
01:20:09 <joepie91> MySQL uses ' or " to quote values (i.e. WHERE name = "John"). This is not the ANSI standard for databases. PostgreSQL uses only single quotes for this (i.e. WHERE name = 'John'). Double quotes are used to quote system identifiers; field names, table names, etc. (i.e. WHERE "last name" = 'Smith').
01:20:11 <joepie91> the last sentence
01:20:17 <joepie91> also, argh, procrastinating again
01:20:22 <joepie91> need to get back to work D:
01:20:57 <wh1t3r4bb1t> ok well their manual reads this: INSERT INTO products VALUES (1, 'Cheese', 9.99);
01:21:54 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Anyways this is a cluster-fuck on misinformation regarding PDO and Postgres.
01:22:05 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: have you tried putting the field names in double quotes
01:22:13 <joepie91> like, have you actually attempted it
01:22:25 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I will try right now
01:22:28 <joepie91> k
01:22:51 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Just because, sometimes documentation is complete shit. :P
01:53:06 <twitchyliquid64> nada: I know x86 ASM
01:53:09 <twitchyliquid64> what do you need?
01:55:54 <twitchyliquid64> (disclaimer: I dont like it too much, and Im not that great at it)
02:08:40 <joepie91> I'm so confused
02:08:47 <joepie91> I have two fields in a mysql table that have the exact same settings
02:08:54 <joepie91> timestamp, null, default null
02:09:06 <joepie91> in practice, one defaults to null and the other defaults to 0000-00-00 00:00:00
02:09:09 <joepie91> the fuck?
02:09:36 <joepie91> it's extra strange because that's not even a valid value for a timestamp field
02:09:46 * joepie91 not sure if problem with mysql or phpmyadmin
02:12:05 <twitchyliquid64> actually
02:12:24 <twitchyliquid64> alot of systems print a zero date for a null value in a timestamp field
02:12:26 <twitchyliquid64> ie: Golang
02:12:31 <twitchyliquid64> doublecheck that though
02:14:04 * twitchyliquid64 pokes joepie91 with a bunny
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02:23:11 <wh1t3r4bb1t> no quotes
02:23:59 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I got it working but there were errors in the code I copied over into my class for the --construct method
02:24:07 <wh1t3r4bb1t> *__construct
02:31:50 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Like I said practically every example of code for the PDO is wrong.
02:38:33 <joepie91> <twitchyliquid64>alot of systems print a zero date for a null value in a timestamp field
02:38:41 <joepie91> the problem is not printing a zero date
02:38:46 <joepie91> the problem is that it only does that in 1 of 2 fields..
02:40:57 <twitchyliquid64> I dont understand your problem
02:41:03 <twitchyliquid64> if a field is of type date
02:41:14 <twitchyliquid64> then it will print null in the form of a zero date
02:41:42 <twitchyliquid64> If a field is a different type, then it will represent null differently
02:47:35 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: okay, again.
02:47:38 <joepie91> I have TWO timestamp fields
02:47:46 <joepie91> BOTH are set to null, default null
02:47:56 <joepie91> when exporting the table, they produce equivalent lines
02:48:06 <joepie91> in practice, one becomes a zero date, and the other shows NULL
02:48:07 <joepie91> in phpmyadmin
02:48:11 <joepie91> that is the problem
02:48:16 <joepie91> why do two 'identical' fields show up differently?
02:56:30 <lady-3jane> motherfuckers I'm playing css natively on linux. Your argument is invalid!
02:58:11 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Penis
02:58:25 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Ari!
02:58:47 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Did you see?... http://btcmutual.com
02:58:54 <lady-3jane> nope!
02:59:02 <lady-3jane> too busy BEING AWESOME
02:59:24 * wh1t3r4bb1t points finger at lady-3jane
02:59:36 * wh1t3r4bb1t moonwalks
03:00:10 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t
03:00:12 <joepie91> http://owely.com/515CTII
03:00:17 <joepie91> also
03:00:25 <joepie91> make the calendar thing only collapse on footer click
03:00:29 <joepie91> also
03:00:35 <joepie91> add an up/down arrow on footer
03:00:38 <joepie91> to indicate slide-ness
03:03:06 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I have no idea what the link represents lol
03:03:39 <lady-3jane> NP: [Pendulum - Slam (Essential Mix Version)] [BBC Radio One Essential Mix 18-09-05] [194kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
03:04:23 <lady-3jane> AHAH
03:04:24 <lady-3jane> FUCK YES
03:04:39 <lady-3jane> if you hit shuffle songs instead of random, you can go back and forth inside the shuffle
03:04:46 <lady-3jane> HAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA
03:04:47 <lady-3jane> WIN
03:04:57 <lady-3jane> I CAN UNDO THE SHUFFLE
03:05:07 * lady-3jane is a shuffle mastah
03:05:14 <lady-3jane> NP: [Dirty Disco Youth - Heads...Off (Mustard Pimp Remix)] [
Off EP] [315kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
03:05:34 <wh1t3r4bb1t> joepie91 what is that screen shot supposed to bo about?
03:05:58 <joepie91> why is the menu down there
03:06:01 <joepie91> and not next to the rest
03:07:06 <wh1t3r4bb1t> The main menu is at the top of the page
03:07:44 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I can see that the sidebar seems to be collapsing under the main content
03:08:13 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Maybe your screen was not wide enough?
03:09:19 <wh1t3r4bb1t> joepie91 I call shoop
03:10:29 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: not wide enough?
03:10:35 <joepie91> maybe your layout is too wide
03:10:48 <joepie91> 960px is still considered the default acceptable for fixed/min-width
03:11:12 <joepie91> I'm on 1370x768 or whatever
03:11:16 <joepie91> bog standard laptop resolution
03:14:46 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Ohhh I see what you mean
03:14:59 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I'll fix it later
03:15:17 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Busy with API right now
03:20:19 <joepie91> okay
03:20:20 <joepie91> time to sleep
03:20:21 <joepie91> night all
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03:30:32 <wh1t3r4bb1t> night
03:31:01 <wh1t3r4bb1t> garfunkle
03:41:31 <Ari> Oh hey wh1t3r4bb1t
03:41:44 <Ari> OOH FANCY NEW SITE
03:43:12 <Ari> mm wh1t3r4bb1t
03:43:15 <Ari> found a liiitle bug
03:43:33 <Ari> in the register field, it only AJAXs when you type, so choosing a chrome/ff autocomplete thing won't validate
03:44:21 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I know, I been trying to figure out the trigger for autoselect
03:44:28 <wh1t3r4bb1t> maybe it's .autoselect lol
03:45:23 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I been working on the API for the financial data today so I can start testing the back end stuff.
03:45:41 ANONKAX (xorgs@61CF8498.C20DD7F6.17461EB7.IP) has joined #crytocc
03:45:57 <wh1t3r4bb1t> How have you been? Not seen you for days.
03:45:59 * ANONKAX Hi , all
03:46:14 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Hey, ANONKAX
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03:50:00 <ANONKAX> i registed the nickname ..
03:50:03 <ANONKAX> i like here
03:50:06 <ANONKAX> :)
03:51:30 <wh1t3r4bb1t> cool
03:52:03 <wh1t3r4bb1t> hmmm ftp server is being funky
03:53:00 <wh1t3r4bb1t> must have been a peer or relay
03:53:07 <wh1t3r4bb1t> works now
03:54:19 <ANONKAX> what ftp?
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03:56:37 <Sabit> joepie91 hihi
03:56:47 <twitchyliquid64> ANONKAX: file / data server
03:56:51 <wh1t3r4bb1t> He went to sleep
03:56:54 <Sabit> damnit
03:56:55 <ANONKAX> !staff
03:56:56 <twitchyliquid64> Sabit: you missed him by 30 mins
03:56:56 <Sabit> why do i always miss him
03:56:59 <ANONKAX> :)
03:57:01 <Sabit> whhhyyyyy
03:57:08 <twitchyliquid64> Sabit: too slow :)
03:57:09 <Sabit> </3
03:57:10 <ANONKAX> hi twitchyliquid64
03:57:11 <Sabit> damnit sports
03:57:11 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Because you slow :P
03:57:19 <Sabit> just got home from practice
03:57:23 <twitchyliquid64> hi ANONKAX
03:59:23 <ANONKAX> twitchyliquid64 I solved the problem with Crypter, worked something he now gave fud
03:59:37 <twitchyliquid64> ANONKAX: do not talk about that stuff on here
04:00:17 <ANONKAX> I saw the status order, and I wanted to see if a listing.
04:00:44 <ANONKAX> ok, sorry if I did something wrong.
04:00:57 <twitchyliquid64> np :)
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04:08:49 <twitchyliquid64> I told ANONKAX that this channel is publicly logged, and that he shouldnt talk about illegal stuff and hacking on this channel
04:09:03 <twitchyliquid64> And also told him off for what he was doing cause its wrong
04:09:17 <twitchyliquid64> and he panicked and left when I told him about the loggin
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04:41:29 <wh1t3r4bb1t> lol
04:41:38 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Some people are so intellegent
04:44:28 <wh1t3r4bb1t> i'm having the worse time with this API right now lol
05:50:40 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Ok so, insert, update and delete are easy. Got that handled.
05:51:15 <wh1t3r4bb1t> For the life of me I can't get the result rows from my PDO object.
05:51:33 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Frustration is mounting.
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07:10:17 <Angelina> Where is somerandomnick?
07:37:29 <wh1t3r4bb1t> @ somerandomplace ;)
07:38:30 <wh1t3r4bb1t> This whole API is like 10 dicks in a bucket of shit.
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07:47:40 <wh1t3r4bb1t> ping pimeout?
07:47:51 <wh1t3r4bb1t> timeout*?
07:53:45 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Well I got results from the API and the rowsets and now I'm trying to bring it into the front end.
07:53:50 <wh1t3r4bb1t> :D
07:54:32 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Cool feature: API returns XML or JSON results depending on parameter given. Defaults to XML.
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11:33:52 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Sweet got the financial account creation and display done under the "MyAccount" section.
11:36:42 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Next is the add mutual funds capability and deposits. Fuck yeah once the deposits are up she can accept bitcoin or other currency payments and they will be displayed in the My Account section.
11:36:46 * wh1t3r4bb1t is excited
11:40:08 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Will have an array of 50 top of the line bitcoin miners (hardware) delivered soon. Those little gems are expensive.
11:40:59 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Time for recreation now. I did good work today. I'm right on schedule.
11:41:07 * wh1t3r4bb1t cracks beer. TTYAL
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19:19:30 <pzuraq> joepie91: Hey joe
19:19:35 <pzuraq> gotta thing
19:19:37 <pzuraq> to talk about
19:19:41 <pzuraq> if you're interested
19:20:00 <pzuraq> ping me
19:29:10 <joepie91> hai pzuraq
19:29:35 <joepie91> two options:
19:29:46 <joepie91> discuss now and my responses will be slow (I'm working on something)
19:29:51 <joepie91> or discuss later and responses will be fast
19:30:06 <pzuraq> discuss now is cool
19:31:15 <pzuraq> so, I've been having a lot of discussions about economics and the future lately. I've basically been trying to define some terms we can use to begin discussing post-capitalist economics, as well as maybe to understand how that system will work and when it will come about, etc.
19:32:23 <pzuraq> The basis for my discussions relies on three theoretical devices which I see as inevitable (given technological trends continue on an infinite timescale): The Replicator, the Ansible, and the Battery.
19:33:04 <joepie91> oh, pzuraq
19:33:18 <joepie91> channel is now publicly logged
19:33:23 <joepie91> if you didn't know already
19:33:25 <joepie91> let me read what you said in a sec
19:33:29 <pzuraq> mmk
19:33:31 <pzuraq> sweet
19:34:16 <pzuraq> Everything beyond this, I believe, is mostly if not entirely speculation (the system of economics and politics is simply to complex to predict given the number of players.)
19:34:42 <pzuraq> I believe that we can make very general predictions much like science fiction in the past has, and that they may be in the same general direction that society is heading
19:36:11 <joepie91> sounds like a good idea so far
19:36:14 <pzuraq> but we will be off by a very large margin as to the final form of this. So, it is best to consider our baseline NOT how the economic system itself will work (combinatorial explosion, could occur in trillions of different ways) but the technologies which will drive it (asymptotically predictable, given current trends)
19:37:36 <pzuraq> Let me define the technologies first to give you a baseline for the discussion
19:38:22 <pzuraq> The Replicator is a device which can take any matter, break it down to the subatomic level (protons, neutrons, electrons) and recombine it into any other form of matter, including another Replicator.
19:38:49 <pzuraq> The Ansible is a computer which can communicate directly with any other Ansible.
19:39:20 <pzuraq> The Battery is an infinite power source which is small enough to be operated by a single individual.
19:40:27 <pzuraq> These techs are derived from modern technology taken to the extreme: 3D printers -> Replicators, Internet -> Ansibles, Solar Cells -> Batteries
19:42:14 <pzuraq> the implementation specifics are not very important so much as the way the techs operate. With these technologies, an individual could live *economically* independent of the rest of society, while still receiving all of the benefits of being part of the modern system of capitalism/consumerism (i.e. Tech/Products they could not create themselves otherwise)
19:43:10 <pzuraq> also, it's important to note that these are asymptotic ideals; There will be many stages of technology in between modern tech and this ideal future tech which will facilitate change
19:43:12 <pzuraq> wow
19:43:15 <pzuraq> that's a mouthful...
19:43:21 <pzuraq> ok, so that's the basis of my discussions
19:43:59 <pzuraq> Inevitably this leads to questions of "Well, how will you prevent nuclear war? Everyone can make bombs! All it takes it one psycho!"
19:44:00 <pzuraq> Which is where I wanted to query you
19:44:23 <pzuraq> I see the world of the future, facilitated by these techs, as being inherently much more anarchistic than the current one
19:44:44 <pzuraq> there simply won't be a way to enforce bans of drugs/guns/dangerous techs, etc
19:45:00 <pzuraq> government will be much more localized, and much more distributed
19:45:29 <pzuraq> and I continuously find myself being drawn back to our first conversations about anarchy, and how you defined it:
19:45:58 <pzuraq> "Anarchy is not the enforced absence of government, but the absence of enforced government."
19:46:20 <pzuraq> and some of the original justifications for why, for instance, murder would not be ok in an anarchistic world
19:47:17 <pzuraq> Each individual has a right to freedom -> By killing a person, you are infringing upon that right
19:47:59 <pzuraq> I was wondering if you might be able to expand upon this a bit more. I'm curious as to how you envisage an anarchistic world working while maintaining peace and order (or at least maximizing it)
19:48:36 <joepie91> I think I'll need some undisturbed time first, to think about the things you mentioned
19:48:39 <joepie91> those three basic concepts
19:48:57 <joepie91> I won't have that undisturbed time for at least the next 5 hours, so we should probably resume discussion on this at a later point
19:49:33 <pzuraq> fair enough, I'm also pretty busy (or should be) so ping me when your free to talk if I'm still around
19:49:59 <joepie91> probably won't be until I've slept
19:50:10 <joepie91> (which happens to be best time for overthinkings)
19:50:15 <joepie91> so, stick around :D
19:50:32 <joepie91> also, for reference
19:50:32 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
19:50:32 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/2013-02-16#T19-50-32
19:50:59 <joepie91> (I can easily find back potentially interesting points in the logs by marking them like this :)
19:52:26 <pzuraq> sweet!
19:52:27 <pzuraq> like it
19:54:11 <joepie91> also, pzuraq, interesting reading: http://www.slideshare.net/codinghorror/how-to-stop-sucking-and-be-awesome-instead
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20:02:55 <pzuraq> good read. Agree on most points.
20:10:53 <joepie91> completely unrelated
20:10:53 <joepie91> http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/02/16/mega-update-dotcoms-service-now-accepts-bitcoin-will-expand-into-email-chat-voice-video-and-mobile/
20:11:00 <joepie91> Kim Dotcom knows how to stir up a storm on Twitter. On Saturday, he announced Bitcoin support for his cloud storage service and also sent out a slew of tweets suggesting Mega is going to become much more than just the successor to Megaupload.
20:11:53 <joepie91> and just days ago, Reddit started accepting Bitcoin for Reddit Gold
20:12:00 <joepie91> cc pzuraq
20:13:03 <pzuraq> Bitcoin is interesting, I'm not sure how it will play out in the long run but it may be an important part in post capitalism.
20:14:01 <pzuraq> Postcapitalism will for a long time still necessitate trade for certain resources, since scarcity won't be eliminated until Replicators are capable of atomic transfiguration (i.e. changing one element to another, led -> gold)
20:14:55 <pzuraq> molecular printers will be able to synthesize a variety of materials which cannot be fabricated easily currently (such as carbon nanomaterials) so scarcity will definitely be lessened overall, but there will still be shortages of certain elements
20:14:58 <joepie91> pzuraq: I'd say there are two stages of "no scarcity"
20:15:21 <joepie91> 1. the absence of scarcity being likely enough to start building on it
20:15:27 <joepie91> 2. the absence of scarcity being certain
20:15:30 <joepie91> we're already in 1
20:15:34 <joepie91> replicators would provide 2
20:15:43 <joepie91> as in, 'transfigurative' replicators
20:16:24 <pzuraq> I would say there is another in between stage, as I said with molecular printers (able to assemble structures on a molecular level) since this will give us a wealth of new options for materials
20:16:40 <pzuraq> carbon could replace metals for vehicles, housing, reinforcement, etc
20:16:43 <pzuraq> and it is much more common
20:16:54 <joepie91> I don't include that in the concept on purpose
20:17:09 <joepie91> as far as I am aware, all of these things are already possible, just not financially feasible
20:18:35 <pzuraq> hmm, I see your point. I suppose part of my assumption is that a person with little training and resources would be able to maintain/operate this machine.
20:18:45 <pzuraq> One could look at all of humanity as one massive "replicator" right now
20:19:05 <joepie91> agreed, to a degree
20:19:17 <pzuraq> it's about scaling it down to first smaller groups of people (100-1000) and then to the individual scale
20:19:20 <joepie91> humanity as a whole does not possess all of the qualities of the hypothetical replicator you were describing
20:19:26 <pzuraq> true
20:19:33 <joepie91> so it can't be considered identical
20:19:38 <joepie91> just similar enough to already start working with it
20:20:18 <pzuraq> precisely. This is a big part of my hypothesis.
20:20:47 <joepie91> either way, we should discuss in detail later on
20:20:54 <pzuraq> Consider humanity as a molecular replicator (atomic = able to change elements, molecular = able to change molecules but not elements)
20:20:54 <joepie91> I have to get some work done in the next, say, 4 hours
20:20:58 <joepie91> it's quite urgent
20:20:58 <joepie91> :p
20:21:01 <pzuraq> sure, I will just log my thoughts here real quick
20:21:28 <joepie91> okay :)
20:22:26 <pzuraq> Humanity is a very large molecular replicator. Let us say that humanity ~ 10 billion people, and that for the sake of argument that with modern tech, those people can transform any molecular configuration into any other.
20:23:25 <pzuraq> The trend is that smaller and smaller groups of people will be able to do the same thing on a smaller scale.
20:24:11 <pzuraq> Currently, if a small group of people were to attempt to remain economically independent of the rest of humanity, they would not be able to accomplish the same kinds of transformations that humanity can currently.
20:24:49 <pzuraq> there would be a certain level of technology which they would, essentially, be stuck at. Advancement from that position would be slow at best.
20:25:52 <pzuraq> But, technology is moving forward and lowering that requirement step by step. At some point, people will be able to accomplish the same kinds of *transformations* that humanity can currently (though not at the same volume)
20:27:24 <pzuraq> this is a key turning point economically, because this is a catalyst for transitioning to economic independence. There are many people who would love to be independent, but would not do it because they cannot accomplish the same tasks as society as whole can.
20:27:40 <pzuraq> For instance, being able to fabricate a car, or being able to fabricate an integrated circuit.
20:28:20 <pzuraq> when a group of ~100 people can fabricate their own cars, circuits, solar panels, etc. There will be a wave of people transitioning to economic independence.
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21:28:37 <zest> hey guys you are talking about Mars 20:28:20 <pzuraq> when a group of ~100 people can fabricate their own cars, circuits, solar panels, etc. There will be a wave of people transitioning to economic independence. ^)
21:29:17 <pzuraq> 20:28:20?
21:31:11 <pzuraq> this kind of technology will facilitate a mars colony
21:31:27 <zest> probably not only Mars :)
21:32:27 <pzuraq> I think that kind of tech is the only way humanity as a whole is going to move past corporatism/consumerism
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21:49:08 <twitchyliquid64> pzuraq: I agree entirely
21:49:20 <twitchyliquid64> I personally have put ALOt of thought into this over the past year
21:52:59 <pzuraq> mm? Care to elaborate?
21:55:45 <twitchyliquid64> I think you have said everything
21:55:55 <twitchyliquid64> however my thoughts have been more practical
21:56:01 <twitchyliquid64> have you studied nuclear physics?
21:56:47 <twitchyliquid64> basically, through fusion reactions, we can not only produce as much energy as we would ever need, but also transmute elements.
21:57:10 <twitchyliquid64> From those elements we would be able to use robots and industrial mechanisms to build anything
21:57:17 <twitchyliquid64> THE CATCH:
21:57:29 <twitchyliquid64> we dont know how to do a sustained/controlled fusions reaction yet.
21:58:03 <pzuraq> yeah, ultimately I think fusion reactions will be a major part of generating energy
21:58:29 <twitchyliquid64> Do you know about the energy deficit calcualations?
21:58:36 <pzuraq> doubling their usage as the recombinant part of a replicator may be useful, and in fact may be the only way to do that
21:58:37 <twitchyliquid64> E = MC^2
21:58:50 <pzuraq> I know the equation, but not energy deficit calcs
21:58:52 <pzuraq> what're those?
21:58:58 <twitchyliquid64> lets say we have a kilo of hydrogen
21:59:25 <twitchyliquid64> if we transmute/fuse that to produce helium
21:59:48 <twitchyliquid64> the energy deficit in the reaction is large enough to power the entire human races' electricity usage.
22:00:00 <twitchyliquid64> for the last 2000 years
22:00:51 <pzuraq> The problem is controlling that kind of reaction and doing it on a mass scale
22:01:05 <pzuraq> that's why I say atomic replicators are asymptotic
22:01:06 <twitchyliquid64> yep
22:01:23 <pzuraq> they will probably exist *at some point*, but for right now they are a long ways off
22:01:36 <pzuraq> at least several centuries, at most several millenia
22:01:50 <twitchyliquid64> yeah
22:01:58 <pzuraq> unless the ray kurzweil is right, anyways :P
22:02:08 <twitchyliquid64> by then our current economic model would have failed, or been forced to change
22:03:06 <zest> last most probable
22:03:24 <zest> and first just evidence
22:04:27 <pzuraq> hopefully it will have changed. There will likely be many many pseudo-post-capitalism states where money still exists, profit is still made, but things which are bought are less needed for life
22:04:29 <pzuraq> like food
22:05:15 <pzuraq> when 3d printers hit the mainstream I expect that there will be a lot of innovation in small scale farming
22:05:38 <pzuraq> simple little tools that will make it much easier to keep a self-sufficient garden growing
22:06:05 <pzuraq> more and more people will be able to live solely off that closed system, furthering economic independence
22:06:29 <pzuraq> I think, however, that solar panels will be the first major tech shift we see among the consumers
22:06:59 <pzuraq> food will require at least some work and a decent plot of land for some time, making it only viable for small-medium communes with a dedicated farmer
22:07:16 <zest> this never happen I think at least world not become unity and one nation
22:07:43 <pzuraq> solar on the other hand will quickly become cheap enough to justify going off the grid entirely. Individuals will buy solar panels and batteries and go entirely electric
22:07:48 <pzuraq> no more gas/electric bills :)
22:08:02 <pzuraq> that will kickstart the "off the grid" movement
22:08:15 <zest> water become in deficit
22:08:19 <pzuraq> more and more people will try to find ways to cut individual living costs, furthering economic independence
22:08:45 <pzuraq> water is a big one, unfortunately not everyone will have access to water without a municipal utility for some time
22:08:55 <pzuraq> but, places like Seattle will be fine
22:09:02 <pzuraq> rain catchers and water purifiers
22:09:07 <zest> )
22:09:18 <pzuraq> people near the see will be able to create purifiers and run them with solar power
22:09:32 <pzuraq> s/see/sea
22:23:44 <zest> Earth become more and more overpopulated and not a safe place anymore, people will look for alternative living, like open space or another places
22:32:44 <zest> Information should be free to decrease bad influence of moral hazard problem
22:40:05 <pzuraq> one step at a time my friend
22:40:38 <pzuraq> leaving the confines of earth will require a joint effort from a large number of people with little to no reward for the individuals who are part of the project.
22:41:01 <pzuraq> Our culture needs to change first, and for our culture to change our society must change.
22:41:51 <pzuraq> I think the free flow of information is a big part of this. In a post scarcity world, much information will be free and available to everyone. Open source will become the norm for both physical and non-physical objects.
22:42:00 <pzuraq> The open source ethos is what will carry us to space.
22:43:35 <zest> truth and purity
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23:19:36 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Good morning
23:22:20 <joepie91> hai wh1t3r4bb1t
23:22:24 <joepie91> also hai pzuraq
23:22:28 <joepie91> (again)
23:23:03 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Guess what joepie91
23:23:04 <pzuraq> hey
23:23:07 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: dicks?
23:23:22 <wh1t3r4bb1t> and balls!
23:23:24 <wh1t3r4bb1t> lol
23:23:28 <wh1t3r4bb1t> j/k
23:23:28 <joepie91> knew it
23:23:40 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I do PDO now.
23:24:25 <wh1t3r4bb1t> It's not so hard but I had to figure some things out for myself. :D
23:24:26 <joepie91> and it works?
23:24:28 <joepie91> yay
23:24:31 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Yup
23:24:32 <joepie91> document them
23:24:34 <joepie91> :P
23:24:45 <wh1t3r4bb1t> with postgres
23:24:59 <wh1t3r4bb1t> I'm going to paste my class again
23:25:29 <wh1t3r4bb1t> It still needs a bit of additions though because I like to have functions for everything built in.
23:25:50 <wh1t3r4bb1t> like joins and shit like that
23:26:41 <wh1t3r4bb1t> hows the non-recurring donations reminder thing going?
23:28:39 <pzuraq> wh1t3r4bb1t: Database ORM?
23:31:25 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: momentarily temporarily occupied by other stuff
23:31:37 <joepie91> current status of redonate is subscription form working
23:31:38 <wh1t3r4bb1t> No DAAL
23:31:51 <joepie91> and reading up on swiftmailer
23:31:53 <joepie91> to implement it
23:31:54 <joepie91> including mail queue
23:32:03 <wh1t3r4bb1t> Sweet
23:36:52 <wh1t3r4bb1t> It's time to work on accepting payment methods. Yay!
23:50:49 <joepie91> wh1t3r4bb1t: whee