Cryto! 11 February 2014
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07:05:26 <monod> hello, morning!
07:17:36 <monod> g2g!
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11:11:00 <lysobit> .ti http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1xl9ul/coke_machine_used_to_explain_mtgox_hack/
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12:47:14 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 2 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02Add new plugin', '02Merge pull request #2805 from yangxikun/masterAdd new plugin' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/aacf39d3b4...fcc779e119)
12:53:17 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 2 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02Added KRL Syntax', '02Merge pull request #2806 from drautb/masterAdded KRL (Kinetic Rule Language) Syntax Package' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/fcc779e119...64dfc004bc)
13:04:24 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 3 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02Add Vuejs Snippets', '02Fix comma', '02Merge pull request #2804 from filipelinhares/masterAdd Vuejs Snippets' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/64dfc004bc...b622aaf2db)
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14:39:02 <dorotea> trying not to throttle somebody :| chrome crashed and relaunched itself and ate every single tab in the process
14:39:35 <dorotea> shut down improperly, as it tells me, which is its reason why I no longer have tabs and cannot restore the old ones
14:44:08 <joepie91> dorotea: :(
14:44:12 <joepie91> it might be in recently closed pages?
14:51:16 <MK_FG> Backups?
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16:01:05 <monod> hellou!
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16:21:52 <joepie91> .title http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2014/02/11/the-day-we-do-nothing-of-consequence/
16:21:53 <botpie91> joepie91: February 11th, 2014, The Day We Do Nothing Of Consequence - joepie91's Ramblings
16:24:10 <monod> oh thanks, going to read it
16:24:28 <lysobit> joepie91: um, what
16:24:44 <lysobit> Day We Fight Back isn't armchair activism
16:24:51 <joepie91> lysobit: how isn't it?
16:24:57 <lysobit> it's being complemented by a ton of worldwide IRL events to teach people who to encrypt
16:25:02 <lysobit> I'm going to on in London today
16:25:04 <lysobit> to one*
16:25:11 <lysobit> .t http://www.englishpen.org/event/the-day-we-fight-back/
16:25:11 <joepie91> lysobit: not part of the actual event
16:25:14 <lysobit> .title
16:25:16 <botpie91> lysobit: The day we fight back
16:25:33 <joepie91> lysobit: my complaints also do not extend to the... german? variant of the day we fight back
16:25:41 <lysobit> ?
16:26:22 <lysobit> i've just given you an example of an IRL complement to the event
16:32:26 <lysobit> btw joepie91 ""Calling your representative" does actually help
16:33:21 <lysobit> you'd be surprised how much Congressmen actually ask their secretaries about what their callers think about X problem before voting on an issue, since it effects their popularity rating
16:33:53 <lysobit> esp. in the Syria war proposal so many of the changed their minds last minute due to pressure
16:33:56 <lysobit> of them*
16:48:02 <joepie91> lysobit: you're missing the point
16:48:14 <joepie91> like, entirely
16:48:25 <joepie91> convincing congressmen is pointless when they operate within a broken framework
16:50:35 <lysobit> What about my first point? https://thedaywefightback.org/events/
16:54:28 <joepie91> lysobit: from where is that linked? a nearly invisible button in the top menu, and a small link at the bottom of the page
16:54:39 <lysobit> So what?
16:54:50 <joepie91> lysobit: I think you'll find that those events are primarily a feedback loop, for that exact reason
16:54:54 <lysobit> It still proves the premise your argument is wrong
16:55:01 <lysobit> How exactly is the UI design relevant?
16:55:01 * joepie91 sighs
16:55:03 <joepie91> no, it doesn't
16:55:05 * lysobit sighs
16:55:06 <joepie91> what
16:55:07 <lysobit> Yes, it does
16:55:08 <joepie91> how is it not
16:55:10 <lysobit> ...
16:55:31 <joepie91> lysobit: how the fuck is UI design not relevant when you are talking about an 'awareness campaign' and whether people are encouraged to do something more than signing a fucking petition
16:55:42 <joepie91> UI design is the fucking backbone of the entire campaign
16:56:19 <lysobit> Because the events are still happening regardless of UI design, thus the premise of your argument is invalid: there is non-armchair activism going on, regardless of UI design
16:56:46 <lysobit> You are now arguing about the effectiveness of the non-armchair activism, but my point is it still exists
16:58:03 <joepie91> lysobit: that is why I said <joepie91>lysobit: I think you'll find that those events are primarily a feedback loop, for that exact reason
16:58:15 <joepie91> yes, there is "non-armchair activism" going on
16:58:17 <lysobit> What do you mean "feedback loop"?
16:58:21 <joepie91> but it will not accomplish anything
16:58:22 <joepie91> right
16:58:32 <joepie91> a feedback loop as in, it will attract those people who were already interested in it anyway
16:58:35 <joepie91> they would have found the link
16:58:38 <joepie91> through their own social circles
16:58:42 <joepie91> who are already involved in the matter
16:58:45 <lysobit> 18<joepie9118> a feedback loop as in, it will attract those people who were already interested in it anyway
16:58:47 <lysobit> uh, what is wrong with that?
16:59:04 <lysobit> People who are interested in each other meeting to discuss and solve an issue IRL = catalyst for change
16:59:06 <joepie91> lysobit: that it's the same people who were already involved in it anyway, regardless of whether this day exists or not
16:59:18 <joepie91> it's great that it happens
16:59:25 <joepie91> but thedaywefightback doesn't actively contribute to it
16:59:28 <joepie91> and has a giant missed chance there
16:59:52 <lysobit> Well the event I'm going to aims to teach non-tech-savvy people to encrypt their main. That includes journalists and the like.
16:59:53 <joepie91> my post would've been worded very differently if they'd actively and prominently invited people to attend an event
16:59:57 <joepie91> but they didn't
17:00:22 <joepie91> lysobit: when you're there, please ask around about the knowledge/interests/etc. of the people there
17:00:30 <joepie91> and whether they've been in contact with any related organizations/people before this event
17:00:49 <joepie91> unless I'm massively misinterpreting something here, you'll find that they are not "new people"
17:00:54 <joepie91> even if they are not tech savvy
17:00:55 <lysobit> Your blog post is still factually wrong, though, regardless of how much they're promoting it "and nothing more than feel-good armchair activism"
17:02:03 <lysobit> The events are called "The day we fight back". I don't see how you could claim that it's not linked to "The day we fight back".
17:02:28 <Xeross> lysobit: I heard about "The day we fight back" but not about _any_ AFK events
17:02:43 <lysobit> Yes, I agree it could be better advertised
17:03:01 <lysobit> I only infact heard of it IRL from other Londoners
17:03:05 <lysobit> rather than the website
17:21:51 <monod> GUYS, I have to go now, but..... I think I've just found the better maths website I've EVER seen! mathinsight.org !!
17:22:05 <monod> I think if you're kinda interested in maths, you may check it out
17:22:18 <monod> but: I don't know what's the minimum level of knowledge required to read those things
17:22:28 <monod> But I read that there also are "narrative" articles
17:22:44 <monod> so, whatever, if somebody is just curious about maths, go check it out
17:22:50 <monod> cya later/soon!
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18:17:43 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 2 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02Make FileZilla SFTP Import available in ST3', '02Merge pull request #2808 from ment4list/masterMake FileZilla SFTP Import available in ST3' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/b622aaf2db...1f7e2e7b64)
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19:46:09 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 2 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02add Colorcoder package for ST2', '02Merge pull request #2809 from vprimachenko/masteradd Colorcoder package for ST2' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/1f7e2e7b64...0111d799e8)
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20:48:08 <iceTwy> @OccupyWallSt has turned into shit since Justine Tunney got it back
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20:48:52 <iceTwy> she completely hijacked the movement's public face
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20:56:05 <joepie91> what a clown
20:56:06 <joepie91> https://pay.reddit.com/r/anonymous/comments/1xmf9x/february_11th_2014_the_day_we_do_nothing_of/
20:56:22 <joepie91> iceTwy: http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2014/02/11/the-day-we-do-nothing-of-consequence/
20:58:22 <iceTwy> hmm
20:58:34 <iceTwy> well yeah
20:58:44 <iceTwy> there were those protests back in December, in Washington DC
20:59:12 <iceTwy> nothing changed after those
20:59:35 <iceTwy> the only way to pwn the NSA would be through courts
20:59:58 <iceTwy> now I think there's one point you missed joepie91
21:01:35 <iceTwy> if, at least, nothing is done of consequence today, this day will create a sort of gathering
21:02:03 <iceTwy> not that it's a viable gathering in any way, but people are spreading whatever EFF says
21:02:23 <joepie91> iceTwy: there is about a bazillion ways to accomplish that
21:02:27 <joepie91> almost all of which would be more effective than this
21:02:35 <joepie91> a gathering is a given with any form of social interaction around an issue
21:02:37 <iceTwy> so I guess that's always a bit useful for EFF, in order to prove the point that people - some of them at least - are outraged
21:02:43 <iceTwy> well you've got it
21:02:44 <joepie91> so I don't consider a gathering in itself to be significant in this context
21:02:51 <iceTwy> scoail interaction on a social network
21:02:54 <iceTwy> social*
21:03:05 <iceTwy> it is an extremely weak interaction
21:03:07 <joepie91> ... I said social interaction, not social network
21:03:13 <iceTwy> uh
21:03:26 <iceTwy> I'd happily say "welcome to the 21st century"
21:03:27 <joepie91> social networks, despite the name, typically do not involve much significant social interaction
21:03:32 <iceTwy> well
21:03:41 <iceTwy> they do, but it's an extremely weak interaction as I said
21:03:42 <joepie91> which is my #1 gripe with facebook etc.
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21:03:56 <joepie91> iceTwy: everything that involves two people does
21:03:57 <iceTwy> it's essentially similar to saying "hi, what's up" to someone IRL
21:03:58 <joepie91> so does a blog post
21:04:02 <joepie91> not even that
21:04:11 <Mabo> ciaoa tutti
21:04:15 <iceTwy> a passive way to do that then
21:04:16 <joepie91> .welcome Mabo
21:04:17 <botpie91> Mabo: welcome to #crytocc! Please be aware that this channel is publicly logged, and make sure to read the rules in the channel topic. You may hide messages from the public logs by prefixing them with [off].
21:04:18 <iceTwy> hey there Mabo
21:04:38 <joepie91> iceTwy: the thing is that "whoo social interaction" or "whoo gathering" is not a productive outcome in itself
21:04:39 <Mabo> ma è chiuso #cipolla ?
21:04:40 <joepie91> it's just a characteristic
21:04:52 <joepie91> .tr ma è chiuso #cipolla
21:04:53 <botpie91> joepie91: "but it is closed # onion" (it to en, translate.google.com)
21:04:58 <iceTwy> joepie91: yeah that's what I'm saying
21:04:59 <joepie91> Mabo: I have no idea
21:05:13 <joepie91> I don't maintain the channel, and it's not related to this channel
21:05:14 <iceTwy> nothing will really come out of that day, if it isn't at least a false sense of gathering
21:05:26 <iceTwy> and pretty much, as you pointed out, a false sense of making things move forward
21:05:38 <joepie91> iceTwy: that's my problem
21:05:42 <joepie91> it's an excuse for people to stop caring
21:05:47 <joepie91> whether consciously or not
21:06:02 <joepie91> and I find it incredible that after years and years of this, it's still not obvious to people
21:06:11 <iceTwy> couldn't agree more than that
21:06:45 <iceTwy> and that's the same thing with SOPA/PIPA/TPP/etc
21:07:48 <iceTwy> when one of those treaties is merely "killed" through collective outrage, another spawns
21:08:21 <iceTwy> where collective outrage is the whole deal that's made around these treaties by activist organizations
21:08:49 <joepie91> iceTwy: well yes, that's what my post 10 months ago was about
21:09:48 <iceTwy> yeah, what EFF & co are doing today is the same thing they've done with SOPA/etc
21:10:04 <iceTwy> though here's the issue, the problem is MUCH bigger than just a treaty this time
21:10:18 <Mabo> thanks
21:10:19 <Mabo> :)
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21:10:50 <joepie91> iceTwy: heh, you could say that
21:11:21 <iceTwy> though, erm
21:11:36 <joepie91> (http://web.missouri.edu/~segerti/capstone/Slacktivism.pdf)
21:11:49 <iceTwy> did the US government actually endorse those treaties and push for them to be enacted?
21:11:54 <iceTwy> (i.e. SOPA, etc)
21:12:07 <iceTwy> corporations did, but I can't remember whether the US government did
21:12:08 <joepie91> iceTwy: that's an ambiguous question
21:12:11 <joepie91> what is "the US government"?
21:12:20 <iceTwy> well the NSA & co
21:12:31 <joepie91> too vague
21:12:51 <iceTwy> because they would have given corporations a lot of power, and in turn, the NSA would have used that power (they'd have forced companies to let them use it)
21:12:52 <joepie91> I mean, in the most generic sense, the bills -originated- from the hand of somebody who is part of the US government
21:13:05 <iceTwy> nah, from the US parliament
21:13:08 <iceTwy> =/= govt
21:13:10 <joepie91> in the most generic sense, it's almost certainly a result of lobbying and could thus be said not to originate from govt
21:13:18 <joepie91> iceTwy: parliament is part of the government
21:13:22 <iceTwy> is it
21:13:24 <joepie91> that's what I mean, "US govt" is very ambiguous
21:13:25 <joepie91> yes
21:13:30 <iceTwy> dayum
21:13:33 <joepie91> "government" encompasses a -lot- of things
21:13:38 <iceTwy> surely does
21:13:48 <joepie91> city council is also government
21:13:57 <joepie91> just local government
21:14:20 <iceTwy> well either way, got my point?
21:14:37 <iceTwy> it would have been so vicious lol
21:14:42 <iceTwy> if it had happened
21:14:50 <joepie91> yes, but I don't think it matters much
21:15:55 <iceTwy> hm, it would simply have given the NSA (a little bit) more power
21:21:02 <joepie91> iceTwy; that they could've (and probably have) gained through a million other ways
21:21:05 <joepie91> the bills aren't the problem
21:21:08 <joepie91> they're just a symptom
21:21:47 <joepie91> it's like complaining about all those useless access log entries, when in reality somebody just uploaded a shell to your shit and is now downloading all your files
21:25:32 <iceTwy> sort of yeah
21:26:17 <iceTwy> talking about millions of other ways
21:26:38 <iceTwy> I'm still waiting to see the 1.7 million documents leaked by Snowden
21:26:48 <iceTwy> fucking media >_>
21:31:39 <joepie91> iceTwy: in this one case, I can understand the release schedule
21:31:45 <joepie91> and this time, the outlets aren't fucking it up
21:32:13 <iceTwy> they're doing it too slowly
21:32:20 <joepie91> they're not
21:32:30 <iceTwy> seriously, if they need to have expert reviews on Snowden docs, then just ask relevant persons
21:32:31 <joepie91> they appear to be doing it at exactly the right pace
21:32:33 <iceTwy> Micah Lee, Jacob Appelbaum & co
21:32:57 <joepie91> iceTwy: the Snowden documents are not really a technical matter
21:33:01 <iceTwy> the right pace means that the release will come to an end in centuries
21:33:13 <iceTwy> and, literally, centuries
21:33:31 <joepie91> to put it bluntly, the snowden document releases are a form of social engineering
21:33:40 <joepie91> very clever social engineering
21:33:43 <iceTwy> erm
21:33:51 <joepie91> iceTwy: that is not very relevant
21:34:02 <iceTwy> they could be. but before being given that meaning, they are/were official documents
21:34:08 <joepie91> it assumes a constant rate, and also has the unwritten assumption that the documents are not useful unless they are fully released
21:34:17 <joepie91> which, while correct for for example the stratfor dump
21:34:19 <joepie91> is not the case here
21:34:33 <joepie91> iceTwy: you don't get what I mean, I think
21:34:42 <joepie91> the Snowden docs aren't haphazardly thrown into a pile
21:34:58 <joepie91> they are very cleverly scheduled and released
21:35:06 <joepie91> it's like an endless cliffhanger
21:35:32 <iceTwy> well, that we knew. we're experiencing it as we speak
21:35:47 <joepie91> iceTwy: that's what I mean
21:35:52 <joepie91> there is a method to the madness here
21:36:45 <iceTwy> surely there is
21:37:21 <iceTwy> but on the other hand media outlets are, in a way, responsible for allowing the NSA to perpetuate their shit
21:37:28 <joepie91> iceTwy: how?
21:37:33 <iceTwy> because now that they've exposed outraging stuff done by the NSA
21:37:59 <iceTwy> they need to expose /truly illegal/ stuff that can be easily used as evidence in court cases against the NSA
21:38:04 <iceTwy> they're not doing so
21:38:18 <iceTwy> and that allows the NSA to continue their activities despite going through a PR disaster
21:38:23 <joepie91> iceTwy: you do understand that you can't just walk into a court and go "lol look at this evidence from leaked docs"?
21:38:34 <iceTwy> why not
21:38:35 <joepie91> not to mention that it's naive to think that that is the optimal solution
21:38:42 <iceTwy> how?
21:38:47 <joepie91> uh, because it is illegitimately gained evidence?
21:38:54 <joepie91> re: first question
21:39:16 <iceTwy> ah
21:39:19 <iceTwy> well, yes
21:39:20 <iceTwy> :/
21:39:22 <joepie91> as for why it's naive... you are expecting the government to rein in the government from acting in the interests of the government
21:39:27 <joepie91> that's a pretty big fucking bet
21:39:35 <joepie91> when you have a once-in-a-lifetime cache of leaked documents
21:39:37 <joepie91> as your leverage
21:39:49 <iceTwy> aka:
21:39:53 <iceTwy> lerooooooooooooooooooooooooy jeeeeeeeeeeeeeenkinsssssss
21:40:16 <joepie91> iceTwy: or to phrase it differently, "there's no bribing the judge in the court of public opinion"
21:40:53 <joepie91> or I should say, no exclusive bribing
21:41:35 <iceTwy> here's how I bribe people, including judges: http://imgur.com/gallery/2kQcifM
21:42:04 <joepie91> lol
21:42:07 <joepie91> nice try
21:42:13 <joepie91> but yeah, iceTwy, do you understand what I mean?
21:42:19 <joepie91> wrt this being a clever approach
21:42:32 <iceTwy> yeah
21:42:41 <iceTwy> but I'm still frustrated
21:43:01 <iceTwy> media outlets CAN release fully analyzed/decrypted documents
21:43:16 <joepie91> iceTwy: they'd give up their leverage.
21:43:43 <iceTwy> but they're waiting. that's kind of horrible, but I'll admit that the positive side is that it causes long term outrage, gets widespread, & etc
21:44:04 <joepie91> iceTwy: when was the last time you saw something be in the news for 6 months?
21:44:54 <iceTwy> sorry what?
21:45:03 <joepie91> iceTwy: as the question says
21:45:10 <joepie91> when was the last time you saw something in the news for 6 months?
21:45:19 <iceTwy> oh
21:45:22 <joepie91> because that's what is happening with the NSA documents
21:45:33 <iceTwy> a bunch of stuff, but local French stuff
21:45:36 <iceTwy> & btw 8 months, not 6
21:45:46 <joepie91> was recalling from memory
21:45:49 <joepie91> figured I'd stick on the safe side
21:45:52 <joepie91> and I mean globally
21:46:23 <iceTwy> yeah, not a lot of things
21:46:34 <iceTwy> not anything I can vividly recall
21:46:46 <joepie91> I am honestly quite impressed with how they pulled this off
21:47:10 <joepie91> this whole NSA leak ordeal is pretty much textbook "this is how you social engineer a mass of people"
21:47:23 <joepie91> (you could call it "propaganda", but that carries an irrational negative connotation with it for many people_)
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21:59:44 <monod> hello
21:59:52 <monod> loggy, how are you today? :P
21:59:56 <monod> loggy, pointer?
21:59:56 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2014-02-11#T21-59-56
22:02:06 <iceTwy> loggy has no soul
22:02:09 <iceTwy> :(
22:04:06 <joepie91> :(
22:04:29 <monod> lol
22:05:06 <monod> not until AI programming will be on the to-do list >:)
22:06:00 <joepie91> * joepie91_ drops a pin
22:06:01 <joepie91> - Cannot send to channel (you're muted) (#anonops)
22:06:02 * joepie91 sighs
22:15:34 <joepie91> <_Astro_>i hate porn,they give viruses. >:(
22:15:35 <joepie91> <th3proF>so do real women
22:15:46 <monod> lulz
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22:41:51 <monod> I gottttta go
22:41:53 <monod> gotta sleep actually
22:42:03 <monod> I can't do that sitting here unfortunately :)
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22:52:16 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 3 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02Fixed Sublime Tweet record', '02Sublime Tweet: underscore to space, corrected github url', '02Merge pull request #2810 from rozboris/masterFixed Sublime Tweet record' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/0111d799e8...2c3d4d3868)
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22:57:41 <joepie91> mama: had some heavy packet loss for a moment
22:58:29 <mama> i see it is resolved now :)
22:59:31 <joepie91> I guess
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23:39:20 <joepie91> .... wow http://www.zdnet.com/mozilla-to-deliver-ads-in-its-firefox-browser-7000026216/
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