Cryto! 5 December 2013
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01:55:15 <DrWhat> Hey guys
01:55:22 <DrWhat> who wants to say Fuck you to amd
01:55:24 <DrWhat> I do
01:55:37 <DrWhat> Fuck you AMD i beat your Broken ass SDK
01:55:42 <DrWhat> :D
01:56:00 <DrWhat> I can mine again :D
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03:19:33 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 7 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02add ResponsiveBoilerplate', '02add label and fixed url', '02adjust for alphabetical order', '02fix url to the right repository', '02fixed whitespace on line 905', '02Fixed new line for brackets.', '02Merge pull request #2313 from newaeonweb/masteradd ResponsiveBoilerplate' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/8697d7572e...485
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10:00:59 <MrPinky2> hey
10:01:15 <MrPinky2> joepie91 did u had a chance to look at the wiki issue?
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10:43:54 <twitchyliquid64> joepie91: greetings
10:46:32 <twitchyliquid64> .btc
10:46:37 <twitchyliquid64> .price btc
10:46:41 <twitchyliquid64> :(
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11:13:25 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: hai
11:13:26 <joepie91> .bitcoin
11:13:27 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $941.00, 1 BTC = €754.00
11:13:27 <joepie91> :P
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11:28:51 <twitchyliquid64> joepie91: I have something awesome to show you
11:43:37 * twitchyliquid64 pokes joepie91 with a stick
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12:36:23 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: sorry, was at the store
12:36:24 <joepie91> show me
12:36:25 <joepie91> !
13:07:22 <DrWhat> can i see too
13:07:31 <DrWhat> joepie91 !!!
13:07:41 <DrWhat> ( 01:55:05 ) ( DrWhat ) Hey guys
13:07:41 <DrWhat> ( 01:55:13 ) ( DrWhat ) who wants to say Fuck you to amd
13:07:41 <DrWhat> ( 01:55:15 ) ( DrWhat ) I do
13:07:42 <DrWhat> ( 01:55:27 ) ( DrWhat ) Fuck you AMD i beat your Broken ass SDK
13:07:42 <DrWhat> ( 01:55:33 ) ( DrWhat ) :D
13:07:42 <DrWhat> ( 01:55:50 ) ( DrWhat ) I can mine again :D
13:07:45 <DrWhat> :D
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13:10:13 <RMON_MRTG> hi
13:12:22 <DrWhat> http://sidigital.co/sid
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13:14:57 <DrWhat> .title
13:14:58 <botpie91> DrWhat: Si digital presents Sid our office robot
13:18:08 <DrWhat> [14.23 Mkey/s][total 307260030976][Prob 92.5%][95% in 7.2min][Found 16]
13:18:12 <DrWhat> CMON
13:18:27 <DrWhat> last one
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13:40:37 <DrWhat> yay
13:40:46 <DrWhat> I need now 17 vality keys all for me slef
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14:15:32 <joepie91> http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1s5h54/inb4_chinese_panic_china_is_not_against_bitcoin/
14:15:41 <joepie91> "In fact, deputy governor of the PBC has stated that individuals have the right to partake in the bitcoin economy as they wish [3]. This new piece of news should only make us happy: banks are NOT ALLOWED, and people ARE ALLOWED."
14:18:10 <joepie91> HA
14:18:15 <joepie91> "Valve joins Linux Foundation"
14:22:41 <joepie91> bahahaha
14:22:42 <joepie91> http://www.businessinsider.com/baml-initiates-coverage-on-bitcoin-2013-12
14:22:58 <joepie91> "Assuming Bitcoin becomes (1) a major player in both e- commerce and money transfer and (2) a significant store of value with a reputation close to silver, our fair value analysis implies a maximum market capitalization of Bitcoin of $15bn (1BTC = 1300 USD)."
14:23:14 <joepie91> cute, wall street analysts trying to make sense of BTC
14:24:13 <joepie91> .title http://www.policeone.com/police-administration/articles/6643566-Chief-asks-to-be-paid-in-Bitcoin-city-approves/
14:24:16 <botpie91> joepie91: Chief asks to be paid in Bitcoin, city approves
14:24:17 <joepie91> wtf is going on today :P
14:34:24 <dorotea> excellence is going on today
14:50:07 <joepie91> it seems so
14:50:09 <joepie91> also
14:50:13 <joepie91> for completeness' sake
14:50:16 <joepie91> .welcome dorotea
14:50:16 <botpie91> dorotea: welcome to #crytocc! Please be aware that this channel is publicly logged, and make sure to read the rules in the channel topic. You may hide messages from the public logs by prefixing them with [off].
14:50:22 <joepie91> .welcome RMON_MRTG
14:50:22 <botpie91> RMON_MRTG: welcome to #crytocc! Please be aware that this channel is publicly logged, and make sure to read the rules in the channel topic. You may hide messages from the public logs by prefixing them with [off].
14:50:23 <joepie91> :P
14:50:30 <dorotea> joepie91:) lol
14:50:33 <joepie91> ahhh
14:50:35 <joepie91> identified!
14:50:40 <dorotea> :3
14:50:42 <joepie91> :)
14:50:51 <joepie91> had a suspicion
14:50:54 <joepie91> but figured I'd check
14:51:05 <joepie91> er
14:51:06 <joepie91> wrong word
14:51:08 <dorotea> I suspect btc would go higher than 15bn market cap just to piss on wall st analysts
14:51:12 <joepie91> but figured I'd .welcome anyway *
14:51:14 <joepie91> also lol
14:51:16 <joepie91> haha
14:51:20 <joepie91> I can really see that happening
14:51:33 <joepie91> even if just a few people with a lot of money being in a trollish mood
14:51:59 <dorotea> yap
14:52:09 <joepie91> oh
14:52:18 <joepie91> I need to send a complaint to the Lidl still
14:52:28 <joepie91> they stopped selling the usual freezer bags
14:52:29 <dorotea> it'll settle back down, they'll call it a bubble, everybody gets a news cycle on bitcoin and nobody on wallst is the wiser
14:52:38 <joepie91> and have stupid ziplock versions now
14:52:43 <dorotea> awh
14:52:48 <joepie91> more expensive, and you can't cook them
14:52:56 <joepie91> and lol
14:54:37 <dorotea> (next week it'll rise in price by 50% again and restabilize lol)
14:54:57 <dorotea> cause new people + btc = higher market cap
14:55:34 <dorotea> if some hedge funds try to come in and buy btc, we're going to be surfing that price wave into the sunset lol
14:55:58 <dorotea> also shit
14:56:03 <dorotea> it's 0C here right now
14:56:05 <dorotea> so fucking cold
14:59:17 <dorotea> hmm, google started marking ads with a little yellow AD sticker
14:59:25 <dorotea> I appreciate it
15:01:51 <dorotea> hmm
15:01:56 <dorotea> you know what's funny to me?
15:02:02 <dorotea> facebook never encourages curation
15:02:23 <dorotea> so they get all the things you've ever liked, for example, and much less insight on what you like NOW
15:02:42 <dorotea> well fuckers, maybe I don't like the music from 8th grade anymore
15:02:43 <dorotea> lol
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15:22:47 <Charles> .bitcoin
15:22:48 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $998.00, 1 BTC = €818.00
15:22:54 <joepie91> <dorotea>cause new people + btc = higher market cap
15:23:05 <joepie91> funny part is that wall street people most likely won't realize this
15:23:20 <joepie91> they appear very intent on applying inflationary currency theories to Bitcoin
15:23:40 <joepie91> I've noticed this behaviour quite alot
15:23:41 <joepie91> a lot *
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15:24:23 <joepie91> sure, they know a lot about inflationary currencies, but their approaches are so set in stone that they try to apply it to absolutely -everything- without first reasoning whether their theories hold true for something that isn't something they usually work with
15:24:37 <joepie91> not everybody does that, but an alarming majority seems to
15:34:37 <dorotea> lol maslow's hammer
15:41:19 <dorotea> why is it still 1c out
15:41:23 <dorotea> such sadness
15:42:24 <zxcvbnm> its 6c here and thats pretty damn cold
15:42:32 <zxcvbnm> windy and overcast
15:43:33 <dorotea> it's perfectly clear here, that's why it's so bad
15:43:48 <dorotea> no wind, apparently, but the weather thing is full of shit
15:43:50 <dorotea> there's always wind
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15:54:28 <DrWhat> http://prntscr.com/28wbix
15:54:29 <DrWhat> :D
15:55:57 <joepie91> .license cc0
15:55:58 <botpie91> Sorry, could not find any licenses for that search term.
15:56:00 <joepie91> what
15:56:02 <joepie91> .license cc zero
15:56:02 <botpie91> Sorry, could not find any licenses for that search term.
15:56:05 <joepie91> what the hell
15:56:09 <joepie91> .license creative commons zero
15:56:11 <botpie91> Sorry, could not find any licenses for that search term.
15:56:13 <joepie91> ...
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16:15:52 <DrWhat> .license CrativeCommons
16:15:53 <botpie91> Sorry, could not find any licenses for that search term.
16:15:59 <DrWhat> .license CreativeCommons
16:16:00 <botpie91> Sorry, could not find any licenses for that search term.
16:16:04 <DrWhat> .license C_C
16:16:05 <botpie91> ...
16:16:09 <DrWhat> ...
16:16:15 <DrWhat> THAT IT
16:16:20 <DrWhat> thats the license
16:16:45 <DrWhat> .bitcoin
16:16:45 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $991.96, 1 BTC = €761.00
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16:19:06 <joepie91> worrying: http://torrentfreak.com/court-open-source-project-liable-for-3rd-party-drm-busting-coding-131205/
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16:39:09 <botpie91> 04FichteFoll made 3 commit(s) to 03package_control_channel on branch 10master: '02add moonscriptyst3', '02set moonscripty for st2 and 3', '02Merge pull request #2454 from szensk/patch-1added Moonscripty' (https://github.com/wbond/package_control_channel/compare/485ced3bd4...a86c50ef93)
16:47:46 <DrWhat> It would seem ads.torrpedo.net has been hacked
16:48:04 <DrWhat> As any website i go on that uses ads.torrpedo.net redirects me to a java driveby
16:49:28 <joepie91> what the fuck: http://blog.angularjs.org/2013/11/farewell-disqus.html
16:49:34 <joepie91> DrWhat; you sure it's not on your end?
16:50:06 <DrWhat> nope
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18:21:03 <joepie91> The last thing that changed in the example between the previous section and this section is that we now pass an array to the module.controller function, instead of a plain function. The array first contains the names of the service dependencies that the controller needs. The last entry in the array is the controller constructor function. Angular uses this array syntax to define the dependencies so that the DI
18:21:03 <joepie91> also works after minifying the code, which will most probably rename the argument name of the controller constructor function to something shorter like a.The last thing that changed in the example between the previous section and this section is that we now pass an array to the module.controller function, instead of a plain function. The array first contains the names of the service dependencies that the controller
18:21:04 <joepie91> needs. The last entry in the array is the controller constructor function. Angular uses this array syntax to define the dependencies so that the DI also works after minifying the code, which w
18:21:07 <joepie91> ill most probably rename the argument name of the controller constructor function to something shorter like a.
18:21:09 <joepie91> I... what
18:21:35 <joepie91> that seems like somebody built a fancy hack based on argument names, then realized it'd break when minified
18:21:43 <joepie91> and tacked that syntax on later on...
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18:49:40 <joepie91> interesting: http://it-ebooks.info/
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18:52:57 <pzuraq> joepie91: Can I ask your advice for an enterprise we are trying to start?
18:54:10 <joepie91> pzuraq: eh, ask away, but I'm a terrible person to ask about commercial ventures
18:55:21 <pzuraq> I think this might be an exception. We aren't even focussing on making money yet, we see a need and we want to fill it. We think it could be very disruptive, in a good way.
18:55:47 <pzuraq> Online trading, it's been done but not well, and we want to make it easy and simple.
18:56:48 * joepie91 raises eyebrow
18:57:00 <joepie91> if you're trying to start an "enterprise", you are already "focused on making money"
18:57:19 <pzuraq> provide a viable alternative to both craigslist and ebay, and thrift stores. Cut out money/the middle man and let people maximize the value of their possessions.
18:57:28 <pzuraq> well, most people would be
18:57:37 <joepie91> .w enterprise
18:57:37 <botpie91> enterprise — noun: 1. A company, business, organization, or other purposeful endeavor, 2. An undertaking or project, especially a daring and courageous one — verb: 1. (intr.) To undertake an enterprise, or something hazardous or difficult, 2. (trans.) To undertake; to begin and attempt to p[...]
18:57:46 <joepie91> well that's very helpful
18:57:51 <joepie91> .wik enterprise
18:57:52 <botpie91> "1 Economics and business" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise
18:57:54 <joepie91> ...
18:58:16 <joepie91> anyway
18:58:20 <pzuraq> and I certainly am in that I'd want it to make *enough* money. Enough to grow, enough to get funding, eventually enough to simply maintain.
18:58:38 <joepie91> pzuraq: and how do you propose earning anything from a site that "cuts out the middleman"?
18:58:59 <joepie91> also, please don't use terms like "maximize the value", I'd rather not grab a bullshit bingo card :|
18:59:06 <pzuraq> heh
18:59:16 <pzuraq> that's true though. Think about it like this
18:59:31 <pzuraq> take your t-shirts to thrift store, get $1
18:59:36 <pzuraq> they sell it for $5
18:59:45 <joepie91> ... wait, thrift stores there actually pay you?
18:59:49 <pzuraq> it's hard to sell your clothes on their own though
18:59:53 <pzuraq> some of them do
18:59:57 <joepie91> right
18:59:58 <pzuraq> not the salvation army
19:00:01 <joepie91> that's pretty much unheard of here
19:00:07 <joepie91> they take it for free and sell it
19:00:11 <joepie91> anyway, go ahead
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19:01:00 <pzuraq> it's easier to trade a shirt for a shirt. That way the thrift store doesn't take a cut (or in the case of free thrift stores, all) of the value.
19:01:22 <pzuraq> allows people who have little to use what they have to get new things
19:01:26 <pzuraq> new to them anyways
19:02:09 <joepie91> pzuraq: what's the advantage over a giveaway store?
19:02:30 <pzuraq> Giveaway stores pretty much don't exist in America, from what I've seen
19:02:40 <joepie91> that's not an answer to my question, though
19:02:44 <joepie91> I'm talking about the concept
19:02:58 <pzuraq> how does a giveaway store work?
19:03:12 <joepie91> if you have stuff you don't want, you bring it in
19:03:24 <joepie91> if you see anything in the store you do want, you take it with you
19:03:27 <joepie91> no money is involved whatsoever
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19:03:49 <pzuraq> is there a rule to how much you can take far what you give, or is it honor system?
19:03:53 <DrWhat> .title http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2518540/Facebook-Twitter-hackers-steal-passwords-2m-social-media-accounts.html?ITO=1490
19:03:54 <botpie91> DrWhat: Facebook and Twitter hackers steal passwords for 2m social media accounts | Mail Online
19:04:49 <joepie91> pzuraq; many giveaway stores have rules in place to prevent people from taking a crapload of stuff and then selling it elsewhere. a common rule in NL is "max 5 items, max 1 electronic thing, unlimited clothes" but exceptions are made if there is a reason for it
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19:05:04 <pzuraq> hmm
19:05:08 <joepie91> some examples would be people that come every week and bring a bag of stuff, and take a bag of other stuff
19:05:12 <joepie91> basically just kind of exchanging it
19:05:25 <joepie91> or somebody who is doing an educational project and needs lots of books
19:05:28 <joepie91> stuff like that
19:05:47 <pzuraq> do you have to bring stuff? Also, how do they stay operational, volunteers?
19:05:56 <joepie91> and even though no money is involved, the common issue that giveaway stores have is surplus of items
19:06:04 <joepie91> pzuraq: how do you mean "do you have to bring stuff"?
19:06:11 <joepie91> and yes, volunteers
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19:06:38 <pzuraq> can you take things without giving anything? Would be good for the extremely poor and the homeless
19:06:53 <joepie91> okay, my response to that is going to consist of a few parts
19:07:09 <joepie91> 1. there is no requirement of bringing in anything, it's all unconditional
19:07:29 <joepie91> 2. if there WERE a requirement of bringing in stuff, it'd be an exchange store, not a giveaway store
19:07:42 <joepie91> 3. the point of a giveaway store is NOT to 'help the poor and homeless'
19:07:50 <joepie91> that's a nice side-effect, but that's not why it exists
19:07:52 <joepie91> it's not a goods bank
19:08:04 <pzuraq> fair
19:08:18 <joepie91> the point is to reduce waste and give things a second life
19:08:37 <joepie91> and, depending on particular store, the point is often also to make people stop thinking in terms of 'trade'
19:09:28 <pzuraq> in that case, the only advantage we would have is availability anywhere, and a (potentially) larger pool of stuff. It would also by that definition not be a giveaway store.
19:09:58 <pzuraq> it wouldn't even be an exchange store, just a marketplace.
19:10:07 <joepie91> A. availability anywhere is a feature of the internet, not of your model - that feature would also be present for an online giveaway store (and they do in fact exist)
19:10:21 <joepie91> B. how do you figure it'd result in a "larger pool of stuff"?
19:12:26 <pzuraq> same reason for availability everywhere, more potential traders. Also I know those are both advantages of the internet, I wouldn't try to claim them.
19:12:38 <joepie91> so, let me ask the question again
19:12:51 <joepie91> what are the advantages -of your concept- over a giveaway store?
19:12:54 <pzuraq> but it would have those advantages over a brick and mortar store
19:13:53 <pzuraq> ok, if we are talking about online stores. This is a way to for-go money. Use the things you have to get the things you need.
19:15:00 <joepie91> pzuraq: that also doesn't answer my question
19:15:10 <pzuraq> Personally
19:15:27 <pzuraq> this need came from us and our situation from time to time
19:16:23 <pzuraq> we are college students, we don't always have money, but we do have things.
19:16:26 <pzuraq> kind of this
19:16:27 <pzuraq> http://www.justmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/brokeramen.jpg
19:16:50 <joepie91> pzuraq...
19:17:03 <joepie91> you have still not answered my question - IS there an advantage of your concept over a giveaway store?
19:17:59 <pzuraq> People aren't likely to be giving away high ticket items, nice things, etc. If they do, they will be snapped up quickly.
19:18:44 <pzuraq> Because there is no requirement for item for item. I want to trade my xbox, I want something equal in value (to me). Be that 20 shirts or an iPad.
19:18:44 <joepie91> k, so?
19:19:02 <joepie91> right
19:19:02 <pzuraq> I probably wouldn't use a giveaway store, I would use this?
19:19:13 <joepie91> I'm really not sure I'd call that an advantage
19:19:14 <joepie91> but okay
19:19:38 <joepie91> so, next question
19:19:46 <joepie91> how do you plan on getting -any- income from this?
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19:21:11 <pzuraq> shipping. If you trade locally you can use it entirely free, but if you need to send it somewhere we set it up and put a small fee on top. With scale we could probably still keep it cheaper to ship through us + fee than to do it on your own.
19:21:42 <pzuraq> Escrow, you send all items to us for a small fee and we wait until all items are received to send them out.
19:22:04 <joepie91> pzuraq: how does this fit into your idea of targeting people like college students who don't really have any budget and are eating ramen?
19:22:05 <pzuraq> Verification, we check to make sure the item is as described.
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19:23:19 <pzuraq> joepie91: I really don't care about making money, but the VCs need that so this is the plan. I'd rather just make a tool for people to use.
19:24:11 <joepie91> VCs? you're screwed
19:24:22 <pzuraq> If we can get a community of traders going, and it gets bigger, eventually people will start trading (I hope)
19:24:24 <pzuraq> lol
19:24:29 <pzuraq> we aren't going to them yet
19:24:31 <joepie91> no, seriously
19:24:46 <joepie91> the moment you get VC involved, they pretty much own you
19:24:52 <pzuraq> we got some grant money and we will be self funding until then
19:24:58 <joepie91> until when?
19:25:08 <joepie91> and what are the conditions for the grant?
19:25:44 <pzuraq> none, we got it because it was in the top three of 12 or so ideas presented to some SV peeps
19:25:57 <pzuraq> it was done by an entrepreneurship class
19:26:08 <joepie91> and the money comes from where?
19:26:08 <pzuraq> we really didn't expect to win anything
19:26:11 <joepie91> and it is given to you why?
19:26:12 <pzuraq> the school
19:26:18 <joepie91> what do they stand to gain from it?
19:26:22 <pzuraq> literally nothing
19:26:30 <joepie91> so why are they doing it?
19:26:33 <pzuraq> it's a microgrant
19:26:58 <pzuraq> it's a thing these days. Give a couple kids a few thousand for a crazy idea, see if it goes anywhere
19:27:19 <joepie91> pzuraq: these kind of things aren't just "a thing"
19:27:36 <joepie91> "funding" isn't some kind of magical box that arbitrarily shits money onto your desk
19:27:56 <joepie91> 9 out of 10 times there's a goal behind any kind of funding or grant
19:28:00 <pzuraq> yeah
19:28:02 <joepie91> and it's usually ROI
19:28:17 <joepie91> so what is their motivation?
19:29:19 <pzuraq> to make something successful, encourage innovation, and if it does boom offer more funding. It's a noncommittal way of building a relationship.
19:29:30 <pzuraq> And tbh I think it's partially in good faith
19:29:42 <pzuraq> given the whole "no strings attached" thing
19:29:55 <joepie91> mhmmm.
19:29:56 <pzuraq> I could prolly just go out and party with that money.
19:30:18 <joepie91> pzuraq: I'm sure it's just as "no strings attached" as an ad on a webpage.
19:30:39 <joepie91> another analogy would be the free sample of drugs
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19:30:55 <joepie91> "hey look, we have money for you, just come to us, here's some to start with"
19:30:56 <pzuraq> Can't sue me, can't ask for it back. I rarely let ads convince me to buy a product.
19:30:58 <joepie91> and it seems to be working
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19:31:04 <joepie91> judging from
19:31:05 <joepie91> <pzuraq>joepie91: I really don't care about making money, but the VCs need that so this is the plan. I'd rather just make a tool for people to use.
19:31:13 <joepie91> pzuraq: of course not.
19:31:31 <pzuraq> Can't think of a single time I've bought something based on an ad
19:32:18 <joepie91> pzuraq: just a moment
19:32:20 <pzuraq> I buy based on the options available. If it's a purchase over $50 I do my research to see what options are available.
19:32:36 <joepie91> pzuraq:
19:32:37 <joepie91> .tw https://twitter.com/joepie91/status/392346930300198912
19:32:38 <botpie91> Advertising works - because we all believe that *we* are immune to it, and everybody else is one of the suckers that makes it worth it. (@joepie91)
19:32:45 <pzuraq> Do ads shape my worldview, and are they detrimental to society? Absolutely.
19:33:21 <joepie91> pzuraq; only a slight problem; you can't actually with any certainty whether ads have influenced how you spend your money
19:33:26 <joepie91> can't actually tell with*
19:33:36 <joepie91> anyway
19:33:40 <joepie91> see the rest above
19:33:42 <joepie91> wrt VC
19:34:03 <joepie91> your talk about "but the VCs..." seems to indicate that the "free drug sample" (except it was a grant) worked
19:34:45 <pzuraq> There weren't any VCs at the presentation. There were "SV peeps" so those type of people, but no actual VCs from what I could see
19:34:56 <pzuraq> atleast not as VCs
19:34:56 <joepie91> pzuraq: that is not relevant to what I said
19:35:39 <pzuraq> The VCs want it, will want it. Hell you even asked about it.
19:35:45 <pzuraq> I came up with a strategy
19:36:06 <pzuraq> is it a good strategy? I have no clue, I won't know until this gets off the ground
19:36:21 <joepie91> pzuraq: don't you see what I'm trying to tell you?
19:36:36 <joepie91> I've phrased it in a few ways now, and you still don't seem to be picking up on it
19:37:18 <pzuraq> Living in SV my entire life has shaped my perceptions of how I'm supposed to approach a business?
19:37:29 <joepie91> ... no\
19:37:43 <joepie91> receiving a supposedly "no strings attached" grant, has
19:37:56 <joepie91> the string is that you get a 'taste' of third-party funding
19:38:08 <joepie91> and are thus likely to step to VCs when you want to set something up
19:38:21 <joepie91> so they get a slice of the pie, and most likely a large amount of control over your idea
19:38:41 <zxcvbnm> better than nothing
19:38:43 <pzuraq> Sure, I don't disagree
19:38:46 <joepie91> do you think the school you received that grant from, pulled the money out of their ass?
19:39:06 <joepie91> I bet you $5 that it was contributed by a 'donor' who just HAPPENS to be involved in venture capital
19:39:08 <pzuraq> but, being from SV my entire life, I don't really see a problem with that.
19:39:14 <joepie91> pzuraq: and that's where the problem lies
19:39:24 * zxcvbnm whats SV
19:39:26 <joepie91> listen
19:39:31 <pzuraq> Silicon Valley
19:39:32 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: silicon valleu
19:39:34 <zxcvbnm> o gotcha
19:39:35 <joepie91> valley*
19:39:39 <joepie91> pzuraq, listen very carefully
19:39:52 <joepie91> VCs do not give a fuck about what your plans are
19:39:58 <joepie91> or what you're trying to accomplish
19:40:05 <joepie91> they don't care about the sentiment behind the project
19:40:13 <joepie91> the only thing they will care about, is ROI
19:40:27 <zxcvbnm> i think thats only half true
19:40:38 <pzuraq> joepie91: I know. That's why we self fund until we can get funding for less than 50% of the company.
19:40:42 <joepie91> if there is a conflict between your intentions and their ability to make money off it, guess which one wins
19:40:46 <pzuraq> that way we maintain control.
19:41:04 <joepie91> pzuraq: except then they pull out when you don't listen to them, and you're left in the cold
19:41:12 <joepie91> because you suddenly can't fund your setup anymore
19:41:56 <pzuraq> Then we are very careful about who we let invest an the terms of investment.
19:42:00 <joepie91> the 51% idea doesn't work when you're still dependent on your investor
19:42:02 <joepie91> ..
19:42:12 <joepie91> pzuraq
19:42:13 <pzuraq> Ideally, they give us money, we give them shares
19:42:22 <pzuraq> they don't get money back in any case
19:42:35 <joepie91> do you really believe any investor is going to agree to the terms that "you will continue funding us, no matter what we do"?
19:42:40 <joepie91> because that is the kind of assurance that you will need
19:42:45 <joepie91> to REALLY maintain control
19:43:35 <joepie91> and one-time funding is nice, except you have recurring costs
19:44:02 <pzuraq> My hope is that the one time funding will carry us to a place where we have a better bargaining position
19:44:07 <pzuraq> a few years
19:44:10 <joepie91> sigh
19:44:14 <pzuraq> more growth
19:44:17 <joepie91> pzuraq, I'm giving up on this discussion
19:44:29 <pzuraq> so what would you suggestion be?
19:44:31 <joepie91> I'm not under the impression that I'm going to win against the lure of free money
19:44:51 <joepie91> the obvious - fund the thing yourself
19:45:01 <joepie91> or get people to unconditionally provide funding
19:45:02 <pzuraq> I don't have money.
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19:45:20 <iceTwy> pzuraq: you're trying to create a startup company that would be initially funded by a VC
19:45:30 <pzuraq> I have enough to keep it going for maybe a year
19:45:30 <joepie91> pzuraq: so sell something you own, and get a cheap $5/mo VPS
19:45:32 <pzuraq> maybe 2
19:45:33 <iceTwy> and you're trying not to give the VC anything in return?
19:45:35 <joepie91> and a $10/yr domain
19:45:36 <joepie91> problem solved
19:45:36 <iceTwy> lol man
19:45:46 <joepie91> you don't NEED thousands of dollars to get something running
19:45:50 <joepie91> why do people not understand this
19:45:56 <iceTwy> it depends on some factors joepie91
19:45:57 <pzuraq> iceTwy: No? read the discussion
19:46:05 <iceTwy> pzuraq: well sum it up please
19:46:10 <joepie91> iceTwy: a craigslist for trading items instead of selling items
19:46:10 <iceTwy> pzuraq: can't scroll up and read everything atm
19:46:14 <iceTwy> ooh
19:46:21 <joepie91> that can ABSOLUTELY be run on a shoestring budget
19:46:27 <iceTwy> well definitely
19:46:27 <pzuraq> joepie91: I'm writing the damn thing as efficiently as possible so that we can run it for cheap as long as possible
19:46:29 <joepie91> trivially, even
19:46:36 <iceTwy> well..
19:46:38 <joepie91> pzuraq; so why even consider VCs?
19:46:43 <iceTwy> just register your company in some tax haven
19:46:57 <iceTwy> i.e. register it in Ireland
19:47:12 <iceTwy> set up a subsidiary where you live (but this won't work if your subsidiary is in the EU)
19:47:24 <pzuraq> If we do need to scale, if we do need more servers, if we do run out of money, and we can't keep self funding, we will need a plan.
19:47:26 <iceTwy> only get 12.5% tax rate on sales/profit
19:47:31 <iceTwy> >success
19:47:34 <joepie91> iceTwy: did you follow a course in "tax optimization" while I wasn't looking? lol
19:47:36 <pzuraq> That and I wanted an A in the damn class.
19:47:45 <iceTwy> joepie91: soooort of
19:47:57 <pzuraq> It's just a backup plan, and I want to put it off as long as possible, maybe forever.
19:48:02 <iceTwy> joepie91: studying some cases about famous companies in my English geography course
19:48:09 <joepie91> pzuraq: if you run out of money while you're experiencing a spike in users, your business model sucks
19:48:14 <iceTwy> what I described is what Apple do btw joepie91
19:48:14 <joepie91> very very badly
19:48:19 <pzuraq> yup
19:48:29 <joepie91> iceTwy: lol
19:48:32 <iceTwy> they set up subsidiaries in countries they sell in
19:48:42 <joepie91> the IP trick as well, I assume
19:48:44 <iceTwy> then redirect all the revenue to NL
19:48:52 <joepie91> (intellectual property)
19:48:56 <iceTwy> (1% tax on intel -- yes)
19:49:07 <joepie91> pzuraq: so fix your business model
19:49:07 <pzuraq> That's why we are going to be very careful
19:49:09 <iceTwy> PLUS a secret tax rate brokered by the company and the Dutch govt
19:49:14 <joepie91> instead of throwing more banknotes at it
19:49:14 <iceTwy> which is very, very low
19:49:35 <iceTwy> and then after that the revenue flows to Apple Ireland
19:49:37 <iceTwy> 12.5% tax
19:49:39 <iceTwy> and yeah
19:49:46 <iceTwy> it's redirected to offshore bank accounts most likely
19:49:48 <iceTwy> in tax havens
19:49:57 <joepie91> pzuraq: if you have a well-designed business model, this problem:
19:50:00 <joepie91> <pzuraq>If we do need to scale, if we do need more servers, if we do run out of money, and we can't keep self funding, we will need a plan.
19:50:04 <joepie91> will never even surface
19:50:05 <joepie91> ever
19:50:07 <iceTwy> yeah
19:50:08 <pzuraq> joepie91: Telling me to make money? Doesn't sound like you :p
19:50:09 <iceTwy> I mean
19:50:13 <iceTwy> more servers?
19:50:19 <iceTwy> you're not Facebook or Twitter or w/e
19:50:20 <joepie91> pzuraq: no, telling you to put some sense into your business model
19:50:24 <iceTwy> you don't need 12302350 servers
19:50:37 <joepie91> commercial ventures are evil; VC-backed ventures are more evil
19:50:42 <pzuraq> iceTwy: I'm not saying we are...
19:50:43 <iceTwy> if you grow REALLY huge then you could run stuff on multiple servers
19:50:44 <iceTwy> but at first
19:50:52 <iceTwy> one dedicated server will do the trick
19:50:55 <joepie91> pzuraq: telling you to get your business model in order, is simply the lesser of the two evils
19:50:56 <pzuraq> iceTwy: That's the plan
19:51:00 <joepie91> iceTwy: eh, even a VPS
19:51:02 <pzuraq> not even a dedi, a VPS
19:51:04 <iceTwy> well yeah
19:51:05 <iceTwy> oh well
19:51:10 <iceTwy> you can get cheap dedi's from Hetzner
19:51:17 <iceTwy> like, 60 or 70 EUR a month
19:51:19 <joepie91> hetzner would be a terrible choice
19:51:19 <iceTwy> at Hetzner!
19:51:22 <pzuraq> joepie91: So make money by making money!
19:51:22 <iceTwy> hmm
19:51:24 <iceTwy> they're stable lol
19:51:27 <joepie91> one ddos and your business is down
19:51:29 <pzuraq> believe me we are trying
19:51:31 <joepie91> iceTwy: hetzner hates ddos
19:51:32 <iceTwy> joepie91: ah, true
19:51:35 <joepie91> like
19:51:35 <iceTwy> I'd forgotten
19:51:36 <joepie91> seriously
19:51:49 <joepie91> I don't think there's a single datacenter, besides maybe Atjeu, that's worse with ddos than hetzner
19:51:58 <iceTwy> what are the best ones?
19:52:04 <iceTwy> or
19:52:05 <joepie91> OVH
19:52:06 <iceTwy> well
19:52:09 <joepie91> currently
19:52:09 <iceTwy> indeed
19:52:12 <pzuraq> joepie91: This all comes back to the question I really wanted to ask. Do you think it's a viable idea, and if so what is the most important part?
19:52:13 <iceTwy> (and OVH is French! :D)
19:52:14 <joepie91> of the reasonably priced ones anyway
19:52:20 <joepie91> iceTwy: that's a bug, not a feature
19:52:20 <joepie91> :P
19:52:25 <iceTwy> LOL
19:52:31 <pzuraq> hell I haven't even told you the other feature
19:52:34 <pzuraq> chain trading
19:52:38 <joepie91> pzuraq: I honestly don't think it has a lot of merit, in itself
19:52:46 <joepie91> it seems like a subtle change to a bunch of other ideas
19:52:58 <joepie91> LETS, Ripple, Craigslist, etc.
19:53:07 <joepie91> only one of those three worked out very well
19:53:19 <joepie91> it actually sounds scarily much like LETS
19:53:22 <iceTwy> pzuraq: you shouldn't delve into 4000 ideas when you're launching your startup.
19:53:24 <iceTwy> or else there will be
19:53:38 <iceTwy> 1. very little funding to support all of the ideas besides the main one (trading)
19:53:46 <iceTwy> 2. little to no spare room for innovation
19:54:09 <joepie91> pzuraq: guessing that items are represented by on-site 'credits' that you can use to trade with others etc.?
19:54:18 <pzuraq> iceTwy: There is only one idea, that is trading
19:54:31 <pzuraq> joepie91: Nope, items for items, no credits, no money.
19:54:32 <iceTwy> well okay
19:54:38 <iceTwy> but then don't do everything at once
19:54:41 <joepie91> pzuraq: and how would chain trading work?
19:54:45 <pzuraq> We don't want to evaluate items worth. That's up to users.
19:54:54 <iceTwy> plan things out on the middle term when you open your business
19:54:59 <joepie91> and how do you solve the problem of "I want X but he doesn't want Y"
19:55:01 <iceTwy> if you just do everything at once, you'll lose your head
19:55:09 <pzuraq> User A gives to user B who gives to user C who gives to user A
19:55:25 <pzuraq> chain trading :)
19:55:27 <joepie91> and you coordinate that how?
19:55:29 <iceTwy> ^
19:55:42 <pzuraq> We are setting it up with a graph DB
19:55:47 <pzuraq> every edge is an offer
19:55:49 <zxcvbnm> neo4j ?
19:55:53 <pzuraq> yes
19:55:54 <joepie91> because it's really easy to get either trade inequalities, or insane complexity that way
19:55:56 <zxcvbnm> nice :)
19:56:09 <pzuraq> finding cycles is pretty easy
19:56:15 <iceTwy> pzuraq: all I'm saying really is, don't go full blown at the launch of your business.
19:56:26 <iceTwy> or everything will hit you back at once
19:56:27 <joepie91> pzuraq: the tech is irrelevant
19:56:31 <joepie91> how does it work for your users
19:56:32 <iceTwy> while you're launching
19:57:36 <pzuraq> joepie91: That's the part I wanted to talk to you about! We are struggling with UX, representing chains, and I'm not sure if that's even a better idea that simple 2 way trades
19:58:04 <pzuraq> chain trading will really help once the market is mature, in theory
19:58:10 <pzuraq> gives much more fluidity
19:58:30 <joepie91> pzuraq: you know, very long ago there was a bunch of people with the same problem
19:58:37 <joepie91> except not on the internet
19:58:40 <joepie91> you know what their solution was?
19:58:44 <pzuraq> thus currency
19:58:47 <joepie91> exactly.
19:59:32 <pzuraq> My arguement is that currency tends to jip the user. People don't evaluate used goods for there worth, they evaluate it by what they can sell it for.
19:59:49 <pzuraq> That's why people pay very little for used things
19:59:52 <joepie91> pzuraq: how is this any different for a trading mechanism?
20:00:09 <joepie91> you do realize that the "worth" of goods is based on what the manufacturer thought THEY could sell it for?
20:00:11 <pzuraq> that's why when I sell a shirt, I can't buy another shirt with that money I maue
20:00:13 <pzuraq> made*
20:00:25 <joepie91> sure you can
20:00:47 <joepie91> you sell a shirt on craigslist, you use the money to get a new one on either craigslist or the local thrift store (if that particular store isn't too expensive)
20:00:52 <joepie91> problem solved
20:00:55 <pzuraq> eh, depends on where you go.
20:01:00 <joepie91> craigslist.
20:01:07 <pzuraq> Thrift stores tend to have a 500% markup
20:01:12 <pzuraq> craigslist sure
20:01:21 <joepie91> if you sell the shirt for the same price as the shirt you want
20:01:23 <joepie91> your problem is solved
20:01:34 <zxcvbnm> pzuraq: I keep seeing clothing used as an example, do you foresee that making up a large portion of your total "trades" ?
20:01:38 <joepie91> this is why I don't really see the potential of your idea
20:01:52 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: in fairness, clothing is the thing that seems to change hands most...
20:02:03 <zxcvbnm> I've never bought clothes on craigslist
20:02:04 <joepie91> I've seen this in thrift stores, giveaway stores... even regular stores
20:02:13 <pzuraq> clothing is a thing that generally loses value as it is traded.
20:02:15 <zxcvbnm> We don't have giveaway stores in the states either
20:02:22 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: you do.
20:02:24 <joepie91> a few.
20:02:26 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: a few
20:02:28 <joepie91> you also have really really free markets
20:02:34 <joepie91> which is basically the US equivalent of it
20:02:46 <zxcvbnm> ya we have close to it.
20:02:55 <pzuraq> it's an example of how you can get more value than direct sales, usually.
20:03:13 <joepie91> pzuraq: except I just demonstrated how this isn't a problem on existing platforms like craigslist
20:03:20 <zxcvbnm> pzuraq: I could see some cool possibilities with it, i think the hardest problem to solve would be how to start getting users to use it
20:03:29 <zxcvbnm> pzuraq: regional based, shipping questions
20:03:53 <zxcvbnm> and the idea of clothes just seems dreary to me. I understand it is just example sake.
20:03:58 <pzuraq> joepie91: on craigslist, I have to sell, then go buy. Often times I lose the opportunity in the process. This cuts out the middle men.
20:04:22 <pzuraq> zxcvbnm: I agree. Textbooks would be another good example.
20:04:29 <pzuraq> Maybe even better than clothes.
20:04:31 <zxcvbnm> but.. I can totally see: Person A wants to get rid of their paintball gun and wants a laptop, person B has an old laptop but wants a new graphics card, Person C has a graphics card and wants a new paintball gun
20:04:39 <zxcvbnm> Oh yeah, textbooks is a huge area
20:04:48 <joepie91> <pzuraq>joepie91: on craigslist, I have to sell, then go buy. Often times I lose the opportunity in the process. This cuts out the middle men.
20:04:50 <zxcvbnm> Where students get screwed
20:04:54 <joepie91> it doesn't cut out a middleman
20:05:00 <joepie91> it just cuts out a step
20:05:04 <joepie91> which is a minor optimization
20:05:19 <pzuraq> empires have been built on minor optimizations
20:05:36 <joepie91> yes, but websites haven't
20:05:55 <joepie91> the minor optimizations are what retains users
20:05:58 <joepie91> but not what draws them
20:06:12 <joepie91> because they will always look at your thing as being relative to what they're already using
20:06:18 <pzuraq> True
20:06:26 <pzuraq> now lets assume I don't have cash
20:06:39 * zxcvbnm takes cover
20:07:02 <joepie91> pzuraq: welcome to the club
20:07:26 <pzuraq> joepie91: Been here a while. That's why I want to make this ;)
20:08:53 <joepie91> also, brb shower
20:11:07 <pzuraq> zxcvbnm: I also see users trying to make the longest chain, or make a chain that goes around the world, for the hell of it
20:11:17 <pzuraq> that's not a business model though
20:12:21 <zxcvbnm> might be a marketing/advertising model tho
20:12:41 <zxcvbnm> because even if you aren't trying to make skrilla off people you do need to allure them
20:12:45 <zxcvbnm> lure*
20:13:21 <zxcvbnm> Textbooks would be a really good niche, if you could incorporate someone else's API for looking up ISBN numbers and stuff
20:13:50 <pzuraq> mm, that might be a good idea.
20:13:53 <zxcvbnm> I think reaching college students as a niche is also pretty focused
20:14:12 <zxcvbnm> I'm a big believer in niche-centric ideas
20:14:27 <pzuraq> We're planning on starting it there because that way we can control our "beta" period
20:14:39 <pzuraq> we can't do shipping in the beginning, so it's all local
20:14:46 <zxcvbnm> sure, shipping would add a headache
20:14:52 <pzuraq> mmhmm
20:15:09 <zxcvbnm> so -- word of mouth would be pretty important in the beginning
20:15:17 <pzuraq> that, and I think particularly where we are students will like it
20:15:33 <zxcvbnm> I know that if I could ever avoid paying $300 for a textbook I did
20:15:38 <pzuraq> very enviro-friendly area, love the idea of reuse.
20:15:43 <zxcvbnm> mhm
20:15:51 <pzuraq> I have never bought a textbook
20:15:52 <zxcvbnm> my hometown is similar
20:16:09 <zxcvbnm> heh, I've bouht textbooks. although, not many.. just the ones that have those stupid codes that you need to enroll in the specific online blah blah
20:16:18 <pzuraq> oh geeze
20:17:14 <zxcvbnm> so what kind of logistics have you discussed in the actual trading process?
20:17:28 <zxcvbnm> will you facilitate any part of the process beyond the online agreement?
20:18:20 <pzuraq> currently our plan was to leave it to the users, and to always do that in local trades unless they purchase escrow. We won't be offering that in the beginning though.
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20:19:05 <pzuraq> Like iceTwy and joepie91 pointed out, it's a good idea to start on a shoestring and we can't do that if we coordinate each trade.
20:19:27 <zxcvbnm> Safety would be an important issue to address if you haven't yet
20:20:08 <pzuraq> In terms of who you are meeting? So far the best idea we have is a WoT, ebay style ratings.
20:20:50 <zxcvbnm> not necessarily *who* but designating a safe *where*. If you are able to get a student-sponsored booth or something, you could both have a physical presence to tell students about your business & have a central point
20:21:00 <zxcvbnm> brb ping pong.
20:21:05 <pzuraq> k
20:21:44 <pzuraq> We are trying to do that but it's hard, then the school wants in on the business.
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20:29:25 <joepie91> back
20:29:31 <joepie91> looks like my net took a shit
20:29:34 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
20:29:34 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-12-05#T20-29-34
20:30:54 <iceTwy> btw joepie91
20:30:59 <iceTwy> http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/12/the-metals-in-your-smartphone-may-be-irreplaceable/
20:31:06 <iceTwy> very interesting piece of research
20:31:06 <joepie91> cat is sitting next to me, lol
20:31:11 <joepie91> lterally
20:31:16 <joepie91> let me read
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20:34:45 <joepie91> iceTwy: and guess what happens when a metal becomes in short supply
20:35:01 <pzuraq> joepie91, last question: All funding etc. aside, is it a stupid idea and should we drop it?
20:35:39 <iceTwy> joepie91: either an alternative comes up
20:35:43 <joepie91> pzuraq: perhaps I am missing information that you have, but personally I wouldn't bet on it succeeding
20:35:45 <iceTwy> or shit happens
20:36:02 <joepie91> can always try, ofc
20:36:03 <iceTwy> here's the full paper: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/27/1312752110.full.pdf+html
20:36:12 <joepie91> if it fails, it cost you $10 for a domain and some work
20:36:14 <iceTwy> rather, http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/11/27/1312752110.full.pdf
20:36:24 <joepie91> iceTwy; actually, what happens is much more interesting
20:36:35 <joepie91> remember how we shipped off electronic waste to africa and such?
20:36:42 <joepie91> and dumped it there?
20:36:58 <joepie91> guess who will become the main supplier for these metals...
20:37:24 <joepie91> after all, when the metals run out, reuse suddenly makes economical sense...
20:37:34 <pzuraq> joepie91: Time is the most valuable asset. But given our lack of better ideas, I want to try.
20:38:22 <iceTwy> joepie91: haha
20:38:24 <iceTwy> that is true
20:38:43 <joepie91> also, iceTwy, have a read
20:38:44 <joepie91> http://lowendtalk.com/discussion/comment/395952
20:38:50 <iceTwy> but then, the researchers from the paper say that a computer chip is made out of 60 elements
20:39:06 <iceTwy> it would be impossible to extract all 60 elements from all chips
20:39:23 <iceTwy> well, extracting everything out of a single chip is a challenge already
20:39:28 <iceTwy> not sure if it can be done, most likely not
20:40:08 <iceTwy> oh hey nice joepie91
20:40:28 <joepie91> it seems my cat likes classical/soundtrack music...
20:40:38 <joepie91> not sure what's up with that
20:41:21 <joepie91> also
20:41:24 <joepie91> pzuraq, zxcvbnm, iceTwy, <joepie91>interesting: http://it-ebooks.info/
20:41:41 <lysobit> I think you should add me to botpie91's github tracking so you can see my commits being spammed in here
20:41:55 <iceTwy> wtf though joepie91
20:42:13 <iceTwy> people are like "it's the workers' fault for agreeing to work at Amazon"
20:43:08 <pzuraq> hey lysobit,, what do you think of a website where you can go to trade things, either locally or remotely, that is very easy to use. And facilitates chain trades (i.e. user A trades to user B trades to user C trades to user A).
20:43:34 <lysobit> What's the purpose of chain trades?
20:43:40 <lysobit> Transporting drugs?
20:43:44 <iceTwy> but anyway joepie91
20:43:49 <iceTwy> it seems that all I see in today's world
20:43:51 <iceTwy> is vicious circles
20:43:53 <iceTwy> every
20:43:55 <iceTwy> where
20:43:57 <iceTwy> /everywhere/
20:44:22 <pzuraq> more market fluidity. If you can't convince the guy to trade you his item X for your item Y, you can still get it by trading Y for Z, that X wants.
20:45:06 <joepie91> lysobit: sec
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20:45:18 <joepie91> lysobit: github username?
20:45:22 <lysobit> Isn't that how economics worked 7000 years ago until people discovered gold and currency as a bartering system? :P pzuraq
20:45:23 <lysobit> joepie91: musalbas
20:45:25 <iceTwy> and, also, joepie91, since you're an IRC masterz
20:45:39 <iceTwy> do you know of any IRC channel that focuses on debating?
20:45:49 botpie91 has quit (Client exited)
20:45:49 <lysobit> #politics@freenode
20:45:55 <iceTwy> hmkay
20:45:56 <joepie91> .startgh
20:45:57 botpie91 (botpie91@botpie91.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
20:45:58 <iceTwy> but
20:46:00 <joepie91> er
20:46:01 <iceTwy> not necessarily politics
20:46:01 <joepie91> .startgh
20:46:03 <botpie91> Now watching GitHub for users joepie91, iceTwy, FichteFoll, cam1337, codetalkdev, shiny, musalbas.
20:46:12 <lysobit> thanks
20:46:23 <pzuraq> lysobit: Yes, but by automating the process you can cut out currency which I think will let people get more for their goods (untested hypothesis)
20:46:24 <joepie91> <lysobit>Isn't that how economics worked 7000 years ago until people discovered gold and currency as a bartering system? :P pzuraq
20:46:25 <joepie91> lol
20:46:27 <joepie91> that's basically what I said
20:46:34 <joepie91> :P
20:46:42 <joepie91> <iceTwy>people are like "it's the workers' fault for agreeing to work at Amazon"
20:46:45 <joepie91> that's why I linked it
20:46:47 <lysobit> pzuraq: sounds terribly inefficient compared to currencly
20:46:50 <lysobit> currency*
20:46:59 <joepie91> <iceTwy>it seems that all I see in today's world
20:46:59 <joepie91> <iceTwy>is vicious circles
20:47:04 <lysobit> pzuraq: since you have to wait for trades down the chain to happen for your trade to complete
20:47:06 <joepie91> welcome to my world for the past... 4 years?
20:47:07 <joepie91> 5?
20:47:07 <joepie91> idk
20:48:08 <lysobit> pzuraq: plus, delivery is needed, etc
20:48:30 <pzuraq> lysobit: Once a chain is made, ideally everyone sends their item immediately. Order isn't necessary, there's an agreement to send goods. Relies on trust, which we will provide by either letting users send items to us first OR relying on user trust ranking
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20:49:17 <lysobit> pzuraq: Sending items to you still requires delivery and is inefficient
20:49:40 <lysobit> pzuraq: overall I see no advantages to currency as a bartering system
20:49:55 <lysobit> but feel free to change my mind
20:50:03 <pzuraq> local trades can be done without delivery, just meet up and you are good.
20:50:09 <iceTwy> joepie91: I welcome your world then
20:50:10 <iceTwy> :p
20:50:23 <lysobit> Or just send them money, delivery and meetup not needed.
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20:51:03 <lysobit> (physical delivery, at leastO
20:51:04 <lysobit> )*
20:51:08 <pzuraq> lysobit: They still need to deliver the goods, and then delivery is needed to get whatever you want to buy
20:51:35 <pzuraq> and as for value, consider textbooks
20:52:03 <pzuraq> used textbooks sell for $20-30, you can buy them at most marketplaces for double that
20:52:12 <lysobit> pzuraq: what if I want to nip to the shop to buy milk? Am I going to wait for shopkeeper to barter with another guy and meet up with him before I can pay?
20:52:25 <joepie91> "Templates in Angular applications are just HTML documents that we load from the server or define in a <script> tag like any other static resource. "
20:52:26 <joepie91> whaaaaaaaa
20:52:53 <joepie91> "HTML documents [...] in a <script> tag [...]"
20:53:05 <pzuraq> lysobit: If the milk is part of a chain trade, the shopkeeper gives you the milk
20:53:29 <pzuraq> it's your responsibility to give your item to the other guy, and his to give his item to the shopkeeper
20:53:35 <pzuraq> thus trust is key
20:53:47 <pzuraq> and bad traders will be banned.
20:54:07 <lysobit> I'm still not seeing any advantages, on disadvantages...
20:54:13 <lysobit> I'm still not seeing any advantages, only disadvantages...*
20:54:41 <pzuraq> look at the textbook scenario
20:55:16 <lysobit> I don't see how textbook price in a marketplace is relevant at all
20:55:29 <lysobit> What if I'm buying the textbook from a supermarket?
20:55:34 <lysobit> They still need to barter
20:56:13 <pzuraq> this is for used goods. Used textbooks tend to sell (in places like bookstores and amazon) for really inflated prices
20:56:17 <pzuraq> ande they pay dirt
20:56:30 <pzuraq> but most people still sell to them and buy from them out of cenvenience
20:56:34 <lysobit> Right, I don't see how this has got anything to do with currency
20:56:54 <pzuraq> so Amazon makes a bundle off people's laziness.
20:56:58 <lysobit> The value of currency is pegged to the value of items, and the value of all items are pegged to the value of all items
20:57:20 <lysobit> All you're technically doing by removing currency is making everything else a currency
20:57:50 <lysobit> I don't exactly see how that prevents Amazon from buying things at a cheaper price and selling them at a higher price
20:58:03 <iceTwy> joepie91: ping
20:59:30 <pzuraq> it won't, it just makes it easier for people to "sell" textbooks directly to each other and cut out the middle man. The other option is CL which works from time to time, but requires much more effort (thus most people taking the hit in money and selling to amazon) and is subject to intermediaries.
20:59:58 <pzuraq> I have a friend who's "job" Is finding things on craigslist and then selling them at a higher price
20:59:59 <lysobit> [20:53:47] <pzuraq> and bad traders will be banned.
21:00:15 <lysobit> If people can be "banned", you're not cutting out the middleman
21:00:25 <lysobit> You are the middleman
21:00:41 <lysobit> <pzuraq> it won't, it just makes it easier for people to "sell" textbooks directly to each other
21:00:45 <lysobit> No, it makes it harder
21:01:02 <lysobit> I can "sell2 textbooks directly to someone else by walking up to them and requesting cash
21:01:20 <lysobit> With your system I have to spend extra time bartering
21:01:28 <lysobit> with a 3rd party
21:01:33 <lysobit> thus it's not really even direct anymore
21:01:43 <pzuraq> you are selling your textbook
21:01:48 <pzuraq> to buy another textbook
21:01:51 <pzuraq> you sold too low
21:01:53 <pzuraq> WHOOPS
21:01:58 <zxcvbnm> http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-purchased-with-bitcoin-2013-12
21:02:11 <pzuraq> you trade your textbook for the other textbook
21:02:12 <pzuraq> you have it
21:02:27 <pzuraq> no worries about selling for enough.
21:02:41 <pzuraq> no middle men buying low and selling high
21:02:44 <pzuraq> like my friend
21:02:47 <lysobit> Why would I sell my textbook to buy another textbook eh? And why would someone trade their textbook for another textbook, if they already have a textbook?
21:02:52 <lysobit> [21:01:43] <pzuraq> you are selling your textbook
21:02:52 <lysobit> [21:01:48] <pzuraq> to buy another textbook
21:02:52 <lysobit> [21:01:51] <pzuraq> you sold too low
21:02:52 <lysobit> [21:01:53] <pzuraq> WHOOPS
21:03:02 <lysobit> If I sold "too low", that's no mistake
21:03:08 <lysobit> That's probably because my textbook is poor quality
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21:03:15 <lysobit> and I'm trying to buy a higher quality textbook
21:03:23 <lysobit> which is exactly how the economy works...
21:03:31 <pzuraq> or because someone is buying all the textbooks, driving price down, and selling them at a markup
21:03:39 <pzuraq> like my friend does
21:03:59 <lysobit> [21:03:31] <pzuraq> or because someone is buying all the textbooks
21:04:04 <pzuraq> works especially well when you buy and sell in different markets
21:04:06 <lysobit> They're buying textbooks with textbooks?
21:04:12 <pzuraq> with money
21:04:58 <lysobit> "buying all the textbooks, driving price down, and selling them at a markup" is not prevented with your bartering system...
21:05:15 <lysobit> And buying textbooks does not drive price down, it drives them up.
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21:05:42 <pzuraq> well, I guess it would be more like buying when demand is low, then selling when it goes up
21:05:54 <pzuraq> i.e. end of a semester, beginning of the next
21:05:55 <lysobit> It's still not prevented by elimiating currency
21:05:58 <pzuraq> true
21:06:05 <lysobit> Things still have a relative value to other things even without currency...
21:07:28 <lysobit> joepie91: tag, you're it!
21:07:30 <joepie91> iceTwy: kinda-pong
21:07:58 <joepie91> lysobit: wha?
21:08:11 <pzuraq> I would argue it's less likely in a transparent system, users trade books for books. It would be hard for one user to manipulate value, but it could be done.
21:11:22 <pzuraq> but maybe you guys are right
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21:46:30 <botpie91> 04musalbas made 1 commit(s) to 03btcalltimehigh on branch 10master: '02More fixes' (https://github.com/musalbas/btcalltimehigh/compare/78123243e8...c0d303b997)
21:49:31 <botpie91> 04musalbas made 1 commit(s) to 03btcalltimehigh on branch 10master: '02Update README.md' (https://github.com/musalbas/btcalltimehigh/compare/c0d303b997...63ff9a107c)
21:56:10 <joepie91> how dramatic: https://github.com/ArchiveTeam/hyves-grab/pull/5#issuecomment-29838995
21:56:10 <joepie91> :P
21:58:38 <iceTwy> and fuck
21:58:44 <iceTwy> Nelson Mandela has passed away at 95.
21:59:37 <iceTwy> cc joepie91 ^
22:01:50 <connor> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520
22:01:56 <connor> this article is less than 15 mins old
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22:11:18 <joepie91> :/
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22:12:18 <iceTwy> man
22:12:19 <iceTwy> wtf :(
22:31:45 <complex> about time. he has been lying dead for some months now
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