Cryto! 7 June 2013

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00:19:45 <scraepy> http://tipforlinux.com/2013/jun/06/tech-python-sorting-lists-inside-of-lists/
00:20:23 <scraepy> src http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.de/2013/06/python-sorting-lists-inside-of-lists.html
00:20:29 <scraepy> glad i found it
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07:07:33 <ShadowDemon> Question of the day: How do I raise 3 kids and maintain my sanity (or what I have left of it, anyway)?
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07:14:49 <HiveResearch> 4chan
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07:57:50 <monod> good morning
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08:07:38 <monod> did you know about huawei?
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11:03:51 <ShadowDemon> Meow
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11:14:33 <joepie91> hai
11:14:46 <joepie91> guess what!
11:15:11 <joepie91> http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2013/Jun/39
11:15:25 <joepie91> I have been reviewing ZPanel code and there is a serious remote
11:15:26 <joepie91> execution vulnerability in the "Protect Directory" module that allows
11:15:26 <joepie91> anyone with access to the page (Administrators, Resellers and Clients
11:15:26 <joepie91> by default) to execute arbitrary commands on the shell due to improper
11:15:26 <joepie91> (non-existent) escaping of user input.
11:21:31 <joepie91> cc zxcvbnm
11:21:35 <joepie91> and MK_FG
11:21:38 <joepie91> it's that time again! :D
11:36:40 <crytocc-c2> hai joepie
11:38:14 <joepie91> hai
11:41:32 <crytocc-c2> whats up
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13:03:39 <HiveResearch> joepie91: I want to be raped by this IDE (lighttable) https://vimeo.com/40281991
13:03:58 <HiveResearch> I look at it and I'm having seizures
13:21:25 <joepie91> HiveResearch: that might be interesting
13:22:06 <HiveResearch> that would be even better if there were source
13:22:39 <joepie91> Will it be open source?
13:22:40 <joepie91> I'm a firm believer in open source software and open source technologies. I can guarantee you that Light Table will be built on top of the technologies that are freely available to us today. As such, I believe it only fair that the core of Light Table be open sourced once it is launched. At some level, this is an experiment in how open source and business can mix - it will be educational for us all.
13:22:40 <joepie91> What's a license then?
13:22:40 <joepie91> In order to download packaged distributions, you'll need a license. Preliminarily, we're thinking licenses will be based on a "pay what you can/what you believe it is worth" model for individuals. This gives everyone access to the tools to help shape our future, but also helps us stick around to continue making the platform awesome. We think what we build will be worth at least $50, and so that's what we've used for our rewards.
13:23:29 <HiveResearch> um
13:23:41 <HiveResearch> doesn't that make it redundant
13:23:58 <HiveResearch> to not give source
13:23:59 <HiveResearch> wtf
13:24:48 <HiveResearch> it's so fucking well done tho
13:24:51 <HiveResearch> dammit
13:25:13 <joepie91> no
13:25:17 <joepie91> read carefully :P
13:25:44 <joepie91> tl;dr "we will release source in some way, shape or form, but we also want to mess around with alternative business models like pay-what-you-want and we're really not quite sure how to combine these two yet, but we'll figure out a way"
13:26:01 <HiveResearch> gay
13:26:08 <joepie91> note that they talk about packaged versions needing a license
13:26:09 <joepie91> to download
13:26:11 <joepie91> keyword: packaged
13:26:15 <joepie91> source is not a packaged version :P
13:26:35 <HiveResearch> ya but does he even realize that
13:26:36 <joepie91> nah, not so gay
13:26:39 <joepie91> I think he does
13:26:45 <joepie91> I'm not very worried about this
13:26:56 <joepie91> it's about time people start experimenting a bit with other ways to do things
13:27:02 <joepie91> in particular re: open-source
13:27:13 <HiveResearch> experimenting is fine
13:27:14 <joepie91> I'm not going to call the devil on him when it's not even clear what their final model will be yet
13:27:40 <HiveResearch> i am a constant rewrite of things
13:27:46 <HiveResearch> *rewriter
13:27:52 <HiveResearch> i want sauce
13:28:23 * joepie91 points at all of the above
13:28:43 <HiveResearch> speaking of which i was thinking of creating a crypto wallet in node-webkit
13:29:01 <HiveResearch> except
13:29:09 <HiveResearch> Jewgle Assle
13:29:49 <HiveResearch> node-gecko where art thou
13:29:53 <HiveResearch> :/
13:30:57 <MK_FG> There's spidermonkey aka mozjs
13:31:31 <HiveResearch> yeah but node-webkit allows building apps using html and all that
13:32:03 <MK_FG> Oh, hmm, it must be a cut-down chrome thing
13:35:44 <MK_FG> Toolkits like gtk/qt and distros using them generally tried to get some integration and unified "native" looks for their apps...
13:36:09 <MK_FG> node-webkit must be doing something interesting in that regard
13:36:38 <MK_FG> Mozilla actually has XUL for making "desktop-native" interfaces
13:37:09 <MK_FG> So yeah, might be cool to have node-gecko with support for that
13:37:29 <MK_FG> Or maybe this "native looks" thing is overrated and screw it?
13:46:19 <joepie91> HiveResearch: meh, it has always been possible to use webkit-gtk
13:46:26 <joepie91> and build an application using webkit for rendering
13:46:34 <HiveResearch> hmm
13:46:41 <MK_FG> Did have node bindings though?
13:46:46 <joepie91> Hotot does that, Hipchat for Linux (native) does something similar with webkit-qt
13:46:54 <joepie91> it's been around for a while
13:46:57 <joepie91> also, XUL is terrible
13:47:00 <joepie91> I tried to actually use it once
13:47:02 <joepie91> worst decision ever
13:47:19 <joepie91> shoddy documentation (which is odd, considering the normally good docs mozilla has on offer)
13:47:24 <MK_FG> Meh, I didn't have much problems with it for simple plugin interfaces
13:47:26 <joepie91> missing functionality
13:47:27 <joepie91> etc
13:47:31 <joepie91> yes, but for stand-alone things I mean
13:47:44 <joepie91> something as trivial as having a tray icon, is literally impossible
13:47:54 <MK_FG> It can be improved when that'll be a thing, if ever ;)
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13:59:13 <HiveResearch> mozilla is working on servo to replace gecko
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14:51:04 <zxcvbnm> I am a missing functionality
14:52:36 <joepie91> hey zxcvbnm
14:52:42 <joepie91> did you know: zpanel got sploited again
14:52:53 <joepie91> root escalation/login vuln for normal level users, this time
15:03:00 <zxcvbnm> lol..
15:03:08 <zxcvbnm> i did not know that
15:03:48 <zxcvbnm> and the dev response? I hope they've learned at least a little
15:05:46 <zxcvbnm> Ok, yeah. good on motters
15:06:46 <zxcvbnm> They're certainly approaching it with a better attitude
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15:17:06 <joepie91> zxcvbnm : oh, there's a response now?
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15:33:29 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: ya
15:33:49 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: did ya already see it? I'd link you but I'm 20 minutes late :P
15:33:58 <zxcvbnm> btw did you ever get around to reading
15:34:02 <zxcvbnm> http://vanillaforums.org/discussion/23339/security-update-vanilla-2-0-18-8/p2
15:45:22 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: I saw the response on their own forums
15:45:25 <joepie91> improvement indeed
15:46:21 <joepie91> also lol @ vanilla
15:49:50 <zxcvbnm> yeah.. :P
15:50:31 <zxcvbnm> The 1 year lapse between security vulns being public & the patch is .. less than exciting
16:14:26 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: you up for a match of red eclipse?
16:14:47 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: It refused to install on my Windows box, but I just set up a kali vm, so give me a few mins to see if it'll install on that
16:14:59 <joepie91> right :P
16:15:25 <zxcvbnm> it's not easy being on windows.. :P
16:17:48 <joepie91> heh
16:19:23 <joepie91> hm, crap, I should probably update
16:19:25 <joepie91> to the newest versio
16:19:29 <joepie91> version *
16:19:41 <joepie91> let me fix that
16:20:32 <zxcvbnm> I got an installer integrity error when I try to install.. redownloading the executable
16:20:46 <joepie91> whoa, wut, the suse repos are behind
16:20:47 <joepie91> ._.
16:20:49 <joepie91> that's a first
16:21:00 <joepie91> desura time
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16:21:36 <anonO_o> hai
16:21:46 <zxcvbnm> Ohhhhh now I remember
16:22:02 <zxcvbnm> my content filtering system blocked the download halfway through because its an .exe and it doens't trust it or something
16:23:09 <zxcvbnm> thats why I got an integrity issue.. the download never completed
16:24:01 * joepie91 downloading new redeclipse at 11MB/sec
16:24:04 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: mm
16:24:06 <zxcvbnm> ...
16:24:11 <joepie91> want me to fetch it, and rename it?
16:24:25 <zxcvbnm> ya, actually
16:24:42 <zxcvbnm> where are you downloading it from that you're getting 11MB/s ?
16:24:56 <zxcvbnm> I am on a business ethernet, should definitely have a faster download than you
16:25:09 <zxcvbnm> business ISP*
16:25:14 <joepie91> from desura
16:25:18 <joepie91> also, I'm on 100mbit ftth
16:25:18 <joepie91> :P
16:25:48 <zxcvbnm> oOoh
16:25:54 * zxcvbnm didn't know about desura
16:25:57 <zxcvbnm> what does that make me ?
16:26:21 <joepie91> it's not terribly great
16:26:23 <joepie91> very memory hungry
16:26:27 <joepie91> then again
16:26:29 <joepie91> so is Steam
16:26:35 <zxcvbnm> I'm not crazy about download managers either
16:26:48 <zxcvbnm> I use steam sparingly
16:27:07 <joepie91> they're not just download managers :P
16:27:18 <zxcvbnm> i know... my company does what steam does :P
16:27:38 <joepie91> lol
16:27:40 <zxcvbnm> but, at the root of it... having to download a piece of software to download another file = download manager
16:28:00 <joepie91> so a game with DLC is a download manager?
16:28:04 <joepie91> :P
16:28:15 <zxcvbnm> it certainly manages that DLC :P
16:29:18 <joepie91> lol
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16:38:57 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: are you still pullin 11mb/s ?
16:39:30 <zxcvbnm> brb
16:42:28 <joepie91> yes, I was
16:42:29 <joepie91> lol
16:50:23 <joepie91> lol
16:50:24 <joepie91> amateurs
16:50:28 <joepie91> I was sniping people for like 5 mins
16:50:32 <joepie91> before they figured out where I was
16:51:51 <zxcvbnm> oho ya i'm gonna like this
16:53:15 <zxcvbnm> my new download is halfway complete (proxying)
16:54:20 <joepie91> oh derp
16:54:23 <joepie91> I was goin to rename it
16:54:24 <joepie91> wasn't I
16:54:28 <zxcvbnm> theoretically
16:54:33 <joepie91> derp
16:54:35 <zxcvbnm> its cool tho, I'm halfway through this one
16:54:35 <zxcvbnm> nbd
16:54:36 <joepie91> still want me to?
16:54:38 <joepie91> k :P
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17:04:51 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: done yet? :D
17:04:56 <joepie91> I has to go in a few mins
17:04:56 <joepie91> :(
17:05:01 <RebelCCCP> hi all,)
17:05:05 <joepie91> will probably only be playing one more game
17:05:11 <joepie91> and then, off to barbecue!
17:05:28 <joepie91> hi RebelCCCP, welcome to #crytocc, please be sure to read the topic, and be aware that this channel is publicly logged
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17:15:29 <joepie91> god I hate playing with bots
17:25:12 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: Oh, ya, it finished but I prob won't be able to play right now
17:25:45 <zxcvbnm> we'll have to re-convene
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17:35:09 <joepie91> indeed :)
17:37:01 <joepie91> well that was an interesting game
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18:00:24 <zxcvbnm> brb joepie91
18:00:26 <zxcvbnm> lates
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18:41:43 <ShadowDemon> The Go programming language is quite sweet
18:42:19 <ShadowDemon> It does everything I need with minimal code, no memory management, and drops cross-platform binaries
18:42:31 <ShadowDemon> Wonderous, absolutely wonderous
18:44:04 <MK_FG> drops cross-platform binaries?
18:44:32 <MK_FG> They show up as statically-linked in ldd, but it doesn't seem to be the case
18:47:16 <anonO_o> wrapper?
18:47:45 <MK_FG> wrapper?
18:49:44 <anonO_o> yeh, like a static linked binary that just loads the interpreter and starts parsing
18:50:19 <anonO_o> or do you mean ldd is only showing native
18:50:32 <MK_FG> No, it's not the case here, more like some bug in ldd
18:50:57 <MK_FG> readelf shows that it's linked vs libc, libpthread and such
18:51:08 <MK_FG> Just ldd being wrong, it seems
18:51:25 <MK_FG> http://dpaste.com/1217680/plain/ <-- for go binary
18:51:27 <ShadowDemon> o
18:52:32 <ShadowDemon> You're quite right
18:52:57 <ShadowDemon> So the question is, would it be able to interpret on a system that does not have Go installed?
18:53:19 <MK_FG> Yep
18:53:36 <MK_FG> Don't think go has any runtime libs as such
18:53:55 <ShadowDemon> Sweet
18:55:07 <ShadowDemon> What program gives the sort of detailed output in your dpaste?
18:55:19 <MK_FG> readelf -a
18:56:34 <ShadowDemon> Beautiful.  Just beautiful.
18:58:05 <anonO_o> run file on and see what arch(es)
18:58:20 <AnonForecast> There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
18:58:28 <AnonForecast> shouldnt that be 01 tho?
18:59:04 <AnonForecast> binary 00,01,10,11 is same as 1234? or 0123?
18:59:08 <MK_FG> Hmm http://golang.org/doc/faq#Why_is_my_trivial_program_such_a_large_binary
18:59:31 <MK_FG> Interesting that go docs state that
19:01:29 <MK_FG> It might be 01 if you have little-endian *bit*-order ;)
19:02:19 <MK_FG> Otherwise it should be 00=0, 01=1, 10=2
19:02:29 <AnonForecast> gotcha
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19:08:38 <anonO_o> I've never seen anyone fail binary before.
19:09:04 <anonO_o> these must be the people who set TRUE=0 and FALSE=1
19:10:28 <zxcvbnm> i thought 2 was true and 3 was false :(
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19:16:37 <monod> hello GUIs
19:16:40 <monod> lawl
19:17:30 <ShadowDemon> lol
19:17:59 <ShadowDemon> anonO_o: I do agree.  Binary is very straight forward, just like octal, hex, etc
19:18:42 <anonO_o> octal still fucks with me
19:19:05 <anonO_o> I had to learn those bases before I could join the programming class.
19:19:33 <ShadowDemon> To make it easy as Pi, all you need to do with any numbering system is simply remember that what we is in our daily life is base 10, 0123456789.  Everything else either truncates are adds to that initial set.
19:20:04 <MK_FG> if (random() > 0.99) { true = 0; false = 1; } // have fun debugging that
19:20:07 <ShadowDemon> But each digit is merely a representation of quantity.  Quantity stays the same, while annotation in various bases changes.
19:20:48 <ShadowDemon> MK_FG: Why????
19:21:34 <ShadowDemon> Btw, my statement about bases was to AnonForecast, not anonO_o
19:22:16 <ShadowDemon> MK_FG: Why is my trivial program such a large binary???  Really?!?
19:22:48 <ShadowDemon> These things are precisely the reason why I stick to C/C++, but I do get a lot of flak for it
19:22:58 <MK_FG> golang runtime is statically linked
19:23:08 <MK_FG> But not libc, apparently
19:23:45 <MK_FG> I wonder why they can't put only relevant golang stuff there, but apparently it doesn't work that way
19:23:56 <MK_FG> My guess is that it's golang vm code or something
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19:24:29 <ShadowDemon> Or something to smooth out the different platforms
19:24:49 <ShadowDemon> I guess vm code would probably be most likely, though
19:25:15 <ShadowDemon> Problem is I want to make a server application that will be on all platforms
19:26:02 <ShadowDemon> So, between my need for SQL, JSON, and serving clients on multiple architectures and OS's, I figured Go would have its use.
19:32:17 <AnonForecast> idgi MK_FG
19:33:02 <AnonForecast> if a random number is greater than 0.99 then set that number to 0, otherwise set it to 1?
19:33:23 <AnonForecast> why would that need to be debugged?
19:34:09 <MK_FG> All your if's will fail randomly in 1% of cases ;)
19:34:27 <AnonForecast> most numbers i roll will be set to 1 unless i roll a 0.99434 which will be set to 0
19:34:37 <MK_FG> And you look at what fails, see obvious "if (true) {" and go "wtf!?" ;)
19:34:38 <AnonForecast> fail means set to 1?
19:34:48 <MK_FG> You try to reproduce thing, it works fine
19:35:00 <MK_FG> But somewhere, in production, it fails again and again ;)
19:35:05 <AnonForecast> maybe i dont know what syntax or debug means.
19:35:33 <monod> "C is a language that combines all the elegance and power of assembly language with all the readability and maintainability of assembly language."
19:35:45 <monod> so.. is it assemly language?? xD
19:36:12 <AnonForecast> lolwut?
19:36:30 <AnonForecast> stuxnet was written in assymablly language
19:37:04 <AnonForecast> can i get a copy of the 15k LOC stuxnet for historical value? http://www.ted.com/talks/ralph_langner_cracking_stuxnet_a_21st_century_cyberweapon.html
19:38:41 <MK_FG> It's disassembly
19:39:05 <MK_FG> Iirc from the assembly there, it was assumed to be c++ originally
19:39:22 <AnonForecast> idk. langer said it was assymbally
19:39:28 <AnonForecast> or looked like old assymbally line code
19:39:59 <AnonForecast> i cant seem to find a download copy of it tho
19:41:46 <AnonForecast> its funny how obama came out and admitted that he created it but wouldnt admit that it was trying to actually detonate the nuclear power plant
19:42:03 <AnonForecast> trys to say "oh no, were just trying to "slow it down" lol
19:42:15 <AnonForecast> cool story, brobama
19:44:33 <MK_FG> Given "15k LOC" mention, maybe guy there said something like "15k lines of assembly code", which might be valid, but doesn't mean that it was originally written in that assembly ;)
19:45:37 <monod> OH MY
19:45:48 <monod> a ted talk - and I can't watch it because of debian
19:46:00 <monod> never heard of stuxnet before!
19:46:06 <monod> sounds exciting/interesting!
19:46:11 <monod> is it so?
19:46:59 <monod> (downloading the video...)
19:47:57 <AnonForecast> wtf u srs?
19:48:03 <AnonForecast> stuxnet was the 9/11 of cyber war
19:48:28 <monod> yeah I'm serious
19:48:35 <monod> I need to be FED
19:48:40 <AnonForecast> if it hadnt gotten caught and traced back to obama, the entire USAGOV wouldve use it to launch a full scale cyber war instead of all these incrimentally slow CISPA crap
19:48:42 <monod> with these things :D
19:48:55 <monod> oh
19:49:02 <monod> and..
19:49:05 <monod> who discovered it?
19:49:12 <monod> why it got caught?
19:49:17 <AnonForecast> lotsof ppl but mr langer cracked it for TED
19:49:22 <AnonForecast> some nerd
19:49:26 <AnonForecast> from germany i think
19:49:28 <monod> video downloaded!
19:49:29 <monod> yeah
19:49:30 <monod> german
19:49:40 <AnonForecast> go TED nerds! ^_^
19:51:40 <AnonForecast> is there a wikipedia of virus codes where ppl can download free copies?
19:51:49 <monod> hmm
19:51:57 <monod> viriipedia lulz
19:52:01 <monod> dunno
19:52:10 <monod> if you find it, tell me!
19:55:25 <MK_FG> Heh, such wiki would make a good honeypot to catch virii authors
19:55:37 <AnonForecast> "My opinion is that the Mossad is involved, but that the leading force is not Israel. The leading force behind Stuxnet is the cyber superpower – there is only one; and that's the United States.
19:55:46 <MK_FG> Who else would have original source, and not just some crappy disassembly?
19:56:36 <MK_FG> ^^^ if that sentence is in the talk, I'd shut it off immediately ;)
19:56:40 Dakkin has quit (User quit:  ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 17.0.6/20130511085507])
19:56:54 <MK_FG> "cyber superpower", "leading", speculations...
19:57:02 <AnonForecast> no one has argued that
19:57:09 <MK_FG> Anything cyber- aloud is crap enough
19:57:13 <AnonForecast> are you implying that china is on par with US?
19:57:19 <AnonForecast> or iran?
19:57:42 <MK_FG> No, I'm implying that such dick-measuring contest doesn't even exists and makes no sense whatsoever
19:57:47 <AnonForecast> you would be the only info security specialist to indicate such. i have heard zero complaints about this statement.
19:57:54 <AnonForecast> actually it does
19:58:02 <AnonForecast> and that is why obama was FORCED to admit guilt
19:58:42 <AnonForecast> since there is only 1 cyber super power, it is not logically possible to blame stuxnet on anyone else, as the USAGOV tried to do nonstop from the start
19:59:19 <AnonForecast> so if we ever see a cyber nuke blowing up any building, who is the very first suspect?
19:59:25 <MK_FG> Some stuxnet CNC servers were run by CIA iirc, and there were other traces in the code
19:59:26 <AnonForecast> the ONLY cyber-super power
19:59:39 <MK_FG> So it has nothing to do with "cyber-" bullshit
19:59:59 <AnonForecast> this is a big deal bc it literally turns the internet into a nuclear weapon.
20:00:31 <AnonForecast> thankfully, TED helped prove that the USAGOV should be completely banned from the internet entirely as they cannot be trusted
20:02:00 <zxcvbnm> uhh
20:02:20 <zxcvbnm> should be completely banned from the internet?
20:02:31 <AnonForecast> COMPLETELY. basically usagov breaks every single thing it touches. internet, healthcare, education, everything really
20:02:39 <zxcvbnm> I'm scratching my head at a couple things you're saying
20:02:52 <zxcvbnm> " since there is only 1 cyber super power "
20:02:55 <AnonForecast> unless you want the internet to be turned into a nuclear weapon
20:03:39 <zxcvbnm> Beyond the loftiness of the statement that the usagov should be "banned from the internet"
20:03:48 <zxcvbnm> It is naive to suggest the usagov is to blame for everything.
20:03:55 <AnonForecast> just stuxnet is enough
20:04:12 <zxcvbnm> and it is very naive to suggest the usagov is the "only super cyber power
20:04:12 <AnonForecast> obama admitted creating the first internet nuke.
20:04:22 <AnonForecast> that is enough to ban the usagov from every touching the intenret again
20:04:26 <AnonForecast> i didnt
20:04:35 <AnonForecast> youll have to compalin to the TED and the entire info sec feild
20:04:50 <zxcvbnm> they're the only one that got caught writing a "internet nuke"
20:04:57 <AnonForecast> the smartest people in history have agreed w that statement, but ill tell them your opinion, differs, if you wish
20:05:04 <AnonForecast> no
20:05:06 <zxcvbnm> well for starters -- I won't be complaining to anybody, specifically not ted
20:05:07 <AnonForecast> thats not what TED said
20:05:30 <AnonForecast> why would you suggest there is a 2nd cyber super power?
20:05:36 <zxcvbnm> and 2ndly .. I'm in the infosec field in the us. So, as you and imagine, the perspective is a bit different here
20:05:38 <AnonForecast> and who would you suggest that it is?
20:05:53 <AnonForecast> well, please enlighten me then
20:06:29 <zxcvbnm> Well, I don't want to make and sweeping statements, for starters. But resource wise, we don't have the numbers that a few other countries have when it comes to "cyber forces"
20:06:30 <AnonForecast> who exactly is this 2nd cyber-super power that would have tha cabability of turning the internet into a nuclear bomb?
20:06:44 <AnonForecast> numbers?
20:06:47 <zxcvbnm> If I say China you'll probably say that's Cliche
20:06:59 <AnonForecast> you mean like china has billions of poor people and that makes them a cyber super power?
20:07:04 <AnonForecast> please do
20:07:09 <AnonForecast> but prove your statement
20:07:15 <zxcvbnm> ok... standby
20:07:19 <AnonForecast> this should be good
20:08:16 <AnonForecast> with all fairness, if zxcvbnm does in fact prove that billions of poor chinese people do in fact constitute a 2nd cyber-super power than i will halt the presses and support legitimate
20:08:25 <AnonForecast> akcnolwedgement of it
20:08:38 <zxcvbnm> You know, before I start citing anything, your attitude is making this less about an intellectual discussion and more about emotions
20:08:44 <zxcvbnm> but
20:08:48 <zxcvbnm> http://intelreport.mandiant.com/Mandiant_APT1_Report.pdf
20:08:50 <AnonForecast> facts first
20:08:56 <AnonForecast> propaganda second
20:08:57 <zxcvbnm> http://www.kaspersky.com/about/news/virus/2013/Kaspersky_Lab_Identifies_Operation_Red_October_an_Advanced_Cyber_Espionage_Campaign_Targeting_Diplomatic_and_Government_Institutions_Worldwide
20:09:01 <zxcvbnm> http://www.securelist.com/en/downloads/vlpdfs/winnti-more-than-just-a-game-130410.pdf
20:09:01 <AnonForecast> reading
20:09:18 <AnonForecast> I work with Red October
20:09:20 <AnonForecast> they are not chinese
20:09:29 <AnonForecast> ussc.OpLastResort.com was RO
20:10:12 <joepie91> <anonO_o>these must be the people who set TRUE=0 and FALSE=1
20:10:15 <joepie91> FILENOTFOUND=3
20:10:16 <AnonForecast> the only evidence that even suggests china is a lack of chinese infections
20:10:17 <zxcvbnm> Find me one paper where a Chinese anti-virus company has found evidence of US military forces hacking into private organizations in China for their intellectual property
20:10:20 <joepie91> bonus points for catching the reference
20:10:30 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: Does it matter who did it? You asked for evidence of someone else being a cyber super power
20:10:37 <AnonForecast> yes
20:10:42 <AnonForecast> red october is not chinese
20:11:17 <joepie91> ShadowDemon: I have developed a hate against octal
20:11:25 <joepie91> for the crimes it has committed to me in PHP
20:11:33 <ShadowDemon> It's quite worthless really
20:11:45 <joepie91> <zxcvbnm>Find me one paper where a Chinese anti-virus company
20:11:51 <joepie91> hm, chinese antivirus companies exist?
20:11:59 <joepie91> haven't ever seen a single one
20:11:59 <zxcvbnm> i know
20:12:01 <zxcvbnm> i laughed too when I wrote it
20:12:18 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: The US Cyber Command had 900 members as of January 28th, 2013.
20:12:31 <joepie91> so
20:12:36 <joepie91> I just got back from barbecue
20:12:41 <joepie91> red eclipse match?
20:12:49 <AnonForecast> joepie91, is there any other cyber-super power except for US?
20:13:07 <joepie91> AnonForecast: Hackforums
20:13:15 <joepie91> ;)
20:13:16 <AnonForecast> lolwut?
20:13:44 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: APT1 (PLA unit 61398) current attack infrastructure has over 1,000 servers (conservative estimate), 130,000 personnel. That is one unit.
20:14:05 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: US cyber command wants to expand to 5,000 this year
20:14:28 <joepie91> zxcvbnm, red eclipse? :(
20:14:32 <AnonForecast> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APT1
20:14:33 <zxcvbnm> the 1,000 # servers wasn't supposed to be impressive, btw, and I left out "attack infrastructure" to describe their servers
20:14:45 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: I probably have 15 mins ya :D
20:14:49 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: wiki? really?
20:14:53 <AnonForecast> ok so a thousand poor chinese people is USAGOVs #1 threat?
20:14:57 <zxcvbnm> dude
20:14:59 <zxcvbnm> can you read
20:15:00 <zxcvbnm> 130,000 !
20:15:01 <AnonForecast> it cited same source you provided
20:15:03 <zxcvbnm> fucking
20:15:04 <zxcvbnm> a
20:15:17 <AnonForecast> can china even get outside of its own firewall?
20:15:26 <AnonForecast> id assume those 130k are used to suppress their own people
20:15:27 <zxcvbnm> If it owns the firewall...
20:15:33 <zxcvbnm> You're assuming wrong
20:15:35 <zxcvbnm> you'r enot providing evidence
20:15:37 <zxcvbnm> you asked me for some
20:15:44 <zxcvbnm> so please, enlighten me
20:15:46 <joepie91> zxcvbnm
20:15:48 <AnonForecast> you could only provide 1 possible opinion
20:15:53 <AnonForecast> that is just an assumption
20:15:58 <joepie91> QSoft RE Server [Paradox]
20:16:04 <joepie91> is where I will be
20:16:08 <joepie91> 23.16.x
20:16:29 <zxcvbnm> k, AnonForecast .. sorry, I am extracting myself from this. Please bring me some reading, I love reading good details, research papers and other facts
20:16:32 <zxcvbnm> not sweeping statements
20:16:38 <AnonForecast> also , i got called an APT
20:16:46 <AnonForecast> just so you know what the usagov considers a threat lol
20:16:56 <AnonForecast> and i am full blown fucking retarded
20:17:09 <monod> "<joepie91> AnonForecast: Hackforums" I wanna know what you mean with this work, hackforumz :D
20:17:18 <monod> *where* are they?
20:17:19 <AnonForecast> it was a joke
20:17:29 <AnonForecast> meaning hackers are the only real cyber-super power
20:17:44 <AnonForecast> hackers have power but they are not super
20:17:59 <AnonForecast> and they spend more time hacking each other than coordinated attacks ;p
20:18:10 <monod> yeah yeah, but somewhere..
20:18:16 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: come!
20:18:18 <monod> .. in the vastness of space..
20:18:19 <zxcvbnm> w00t
20:18:21 <zxcvbnm> i just beat you joepie91
20:18:21 <zxcvbnm> lol
20:18:29 zest (zest@cryto-1309AB55.dfri.se) has joined #crytocc
20:18:31 <AnonForecast> www.hackforums.net/‎
20:18:41 <monod> lawl
20:19:17 <AnonForecast> btw zxcvbnm you get an A for effort. maybe youll have better luck with your CISPA propagandizing next time :)
20:19:33 <AnonForecast> protip - use more than 1 wikipedia citation.
20:24:04 <AnonForecast> joepie91, i need help finding a download copy of the actual stuxnet. and before you say google it, i have been for quite a while
20:27:55 <AnonForecast> ok i mightve found a copy that works - http://tuts4you.com/download.php?view.3011
20:29:36 <zxcvbnm> ggs joepie91 , gotta go to a meeting :)
20:29:43 <joepie91> D:
20:29:44 <zxcvbnm> fun game. exactly like old school unreal tournament, love it
20:29:48 <AnonForecast> neat! I have a nuclear cyber-bomb uploaded to my google drive! ^_^
20:29:53 <joepie91> I'm like the only player now :(
20:29:57 <joepie91> and yes, it's a great game!
20:30:04 <joepie91> also, I'm getting pretty good at the sniper thing
20:30:04 <joepie91> heh
20:30:33 <zxcvbnm> nice :) you like instagib mostly ?
20:30:47 iceTwy (iceTwy@iceTwy.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
20:30:49 <iceTwy> Hai
20:31:29 <monod> MK_FG, you didn't like the ending of the video I suppose :/
20:31:35 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: I don't have a CISPA
20:31:36 <crytocc-c2> Dear Paypal, you can kiss my ass.
20:31:42 <monod> "fortunately, the US are the only cyber superpower
20:31:43 <monod> "
20:31:44 <crytocc-c2> Transaction amount:  $258.00 USD
20:31:44 <crytocc-c2> Buyer's email:  a@fz.gs
20:31:44 <crytocc-c2> Buyer's name:  Denny Ng
20:31:44 <crytocc-c2> Your transaction ID:  6RN50066UE095673H
20:31:44 <crytocc-c2> Your buyer or your buyer’s bank requested a payment reversal for this transaction. As this payment was not covered under PayPal Seller Protection, it was deducted from your PayPal balance.
20:32:01 <crytocc-c2> PayPal balance: -$218.30 USD
20:32:06 <crytocc-c2> You can kindly kiss my ass :)
20:32:37 <MK_FG> monod, I didn't watch it
20:32:53 <AnonForecast> wtf does that mean?
20:32:56 <monod> oh, I thought you did
20:33:28 <AnonForecast> joepie91, you play mtg or chess?
20:33:48 <joepie91> mtg?
20:33:55 <AnonForecast> wuttttt
20:34:02 <AnonForecast> what do you mean question mark?
20:34:09 <AnonForecast> you dont know mtg?!?!?
20:34:18 <MK_FG> monod, I don't have issue with "who is superpower", just don't think people who make nonsense cyber- metaphors shouldn't be taken seriously ;)
20:34:33 <AnonForecast> TED is taken seriously by everyone
20:34:36 <iceTwy> MK_FG: even if the US are not cyberpowers, I'm just worried they eavesdrop on everyone
20:34:40 <MK_FG> Hahah
20:34:45 <iceTwy> Like
20:34:46 <MK_FG> AnonForecast, No, not really
20:34:47 <iceTwy> Verizon, wtf
20:35:05 <AnonForecast> who is taken more seriously than TED?
20:35:24 <zxcvbnm> iceTwy: Nothing new though.. we all know it is not just US
20:35:29 <AnonForecast> are we all going to pretend like TED isny over flowing with the smartest people in the world ?
20:36:00 <MK_FG> Ah well, for a second there I though you were serious ;)
20:36:04 <AnonForecast> also, do not group me together with the usagov
20:36:47 <monod> MK_FG, thanks for explaining better your thought, because sometimes I struggle a bit understanding fast english conversations :D btw, I think I understood what you meant, but wasn't the speaker a really famous man behind cyber-security?
20:36:49 <AnonForecast> usagov = 545 political authorities and their employees. 9 judges, 1 pres, 100 senat, 435 reps
20:36:49 <iceTwy> zxcvbnm: true, it was obvious they did that. But having it revealed is always a positive thing
20:36:57 <zxcvbnm> iceTwy: agreed :)
20:37:15 <iceTwy> zxcvbnm: Hopefully it's going to cause an outrage.
20:37:17 <monod> you can also see it in this way:
20:37:22 <iceTwy> But it seems that people honestly don't give two fucks
20:37:35 <monod> reveal what most people already believes
20:37:39 <zxcvbnm> iceTwy: Yeah.. I am interested to see what happens
20:37:39 <monod> yeah
20:37:47 <monod> that's right iceTwy
20:37:50 <zxcvbnm> Because, it is naive to think they haven't been doing this for.. 10-20 years
20:37:52 <iceTwy> The worst part isn't really that the US are spying
20:38:00 <iceTwy> It's that people don't seem to react.
20:38:04 <monod> nope
20:38:18 <iceTwy> Even when they've got both the data & an official confirmation (!) from the US gov
20:38:27 <iceTwy> that they're being shamelessly spied on, under the curtain(s)
20:38:41 zest has quit (Ping timeout)
20:38:52 <monod> iceTwy, you have to keep in mind that if you want to control people, you have to put them against each other!
20:39:06 <iceTwy> true
20:39:07 <zxcvbnm> it is a dangerous thin line -- surveillance
20:39:10 <monod> from this perspective, people not reacting if okay
20:39:20 <monod> is* okay
20:39:29 <iceTwy> *sigh*
20:39:32 <AnonForecast> iceTwy, Insanity, by defintion, is repeating something proven not to work or not proven to work.
20:39:33 <iceTwy> contestation is beautiful
20:39:42 <iceTwy> AnonForecast: Einstein pls
20:39:55 <AnonForecast> also, constituion CLEARLY states that usagov cannot search without warrant
20:40:12 <AnonForecast> the surveillence state is illegal
20:40:15 <monod> what are you talking about, AnonForecast ?
20:40:17 <AnonForecast> unconstitution*
20:40:20 <AnonForecast> mass surveillence
20:40:22 <monod> -al
20:40:31 <AnonForecast> PRISM, trapwire, stellar wind, etc etc
20:40:44 <zxcvbnm> p.s. AnonForecast you finished reading ?
20:40:50 <monod> prism?
20:40:55 <zxcvbnm> or were you just asking for evidence for appearances?
20:41:01 <monod> if I google those 3 names will I get some news?
20:41:09 <AnonForecast> i scanned all 3 docs
20:41:12 <zxcvbnm> mhm.
20:41:14 <iceTwy> if you google PRISM you'll get news, monod
20:41:14 <AnonForecast> zero mention of cyber super power
20:41:16 <zxcvbnm> that's what I thought
20:41:19 <zxcvbnm> Not interested in evidence..
20:41:22 <AnonForecast> no
20:41:30 <AnonForecast> i asked you to prove that is a 2nd cyber super power
20:41:33 <zxcvbnm> One of those was a 26 page paper
20:41:38 <zxcvbnm> details are important my friend
20:41:39 <AnonForecast> you spammed me with non-answers
20:41:42 <zxcvbnm> so you can form your own opinion
20:41:51 <AnonForecast> not a single word mentions any cyber super power
20:41:56 <zxcvbnm> oh god
20:42:02 <AnonForecast> you have both failed to define the term and failed to prove it exists
20:42:03 <zxcvbnm> the logical fallacy in that is great
20:42:10 <AnonForecast> no, it is not.
20:42:14 <zxcvbnm> cyber super power is a fucking stupid combination of words, to begin with
20:42:16 <AnonForecast> i asked you a question, you failed to answer my question.
20:42:23 <AnonForecast> ah
20:42:26 <AnonForecast> so we get to the root of your problem
20:42:27 <zxcvbnm> the obsession over "cyber warrior cyber this cyber that"
20:42:28 <zxcvbnm> state actor
20:42:32 <zxcvbnm> buzz words
20:42:32 <AnonForecast> you dont even know how to answer the question
20:42:39 <zxcvbnm> and you tell ME not to CISPA propagandize you
20:42:42 <zxcvbnm> DUDE
20:42:47 <AnonForecast> you want to argue that there is in fact a 2nd cyber super power yet you contradict yoruself by saying the term is useless
20:42:47 <zxcvbnm> 130,000 personnell vs 900
20:42:50 <zxcvbnm> tell me who has more
20:43:08 <AnonForecast> you realie the entire usagov is only 545 ppl?
20:43:10 <zxcvbnm> How do sheer numbers not compute?
20:43:18 <AnonForecast> you are stupid if you think numbers count
20:43:23 <AnonForecast> this isnt the civil war
20:43:26 <AnonForecast> we dont have muskets
20:43:28 <AnonForecast> stop being a faggot
20:43:34 <monod> good god
20:43:42 <monod> respect guys, respect for each other please..
20:43:46 <monod> :D
20:43:57 <zxcvbnm> Every single country has a cyber program, offensive and defensive
20:44:06 <iceTwy> monod: here, you take "faggot" as an insult
20:44:12 <AnonForecast> 1 pilot and 4 airmen nuked hiroshima and nagasaki. millions dead. numbers count for what again?
20:44:14 <iceTwy> when it is a simple term to describe gay people
20:44:20 <AnonForecast> well if hes gonna act like one im gonna call him one
20:44:20 <iceTwy> you racist! :D
20:44:23 <AnonForecast> ok im sorry
20:44:26 <AnonForecast> i shouldnt have called you a faggot.
20:44:32 <AnonForecast> that was rude
20:44:32 <zxcvbnm> I don't care, this is the internet..
20:44:39 <zxcvbnm> It does impede discussion though
20:44:41 <AnonForecast> well joepie91 has rules. no drama
20:44:44 <AnonForecast> and i was being dramatic
20:44:46 <monod> iceTwy, I didn't know O_O I never, never, never had it explained :D
20:44:46 <AnonForecast> and im sorry
20:44:49 <zxcvbnm> well its ok. thanks
20:44:59 <iceTwy> monod: watch South Park! hahaha
20:45:04 <monod> hahaha
20:45:11 <iceTwy> I love these series
20:45:15 <AnonForecast> but there is no reason to assume numbers define threat.
20:45:18 <iceTwy> I've stopped watching it but ye
20:45:39 <zxcvbnm> If you're looking for some official report of the existence of a second "Cyber Super Power".. I'll have to do some more research
20:46:05 <AnonForecast> in fact, the entire concept of 1% is that a very tiny "number" of people hold more power than the mass majorty, clearly disproving any allegation that numbers = power
20:46:09 <iceTwy> AnonForecast: if you're going to talk about historic events with millions of dead, I think there's another POV that's barely been considered
20:46:29 <AnonForecast> i am refuting his claim that numbers = power
20:46:31 <AnonForecast> they do not.
20:46:35 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: Yes, I agree with you on this. you can have super-empowered individuals. like julian assange
20:46:45 <AnonForecast> he was a movie maker
20:46:51 <zxcvbnm> where an entire govt. and perhaps group of govts (EU) go after one individual
20:46:51 <iceTwy> lawl
20:46:55 <iceTwy> aussie hacker. "hey m8"
20:47:07 <zxcvbnm> He was given data
20:47:08 <monod> aussie?
20:47:10 <AnonForecast> assaange is not super powered.
20:47:16 <AnonForecast> ok
20:47:19 <zxcvbnm> ok...........
20:47:25 <AnonForecast> usagov shouldnt be terrorising ppl and kiilling reuters reporters?
20:47:27 <AnonForecast> stop doing that
20:47:33 <AnonForecast> thats stupid. stop it.
20:47:43 <zxcvbnm> wait uhm
20:47:46 <zxcvbnm> you shifted
20:47:55 <AnonForecast> assange made a movie
20:48:00 <AnonForecast> collarateral murder
20:48:03 <zxcvbnm> right
20:48:07 <AnonForecast> based on a leak from manning
20:48:11 <zxcvbnm> i know these things
20:48:17 <AnonForecast> usagov shouldnt ahve been killing ppl in first place
20:48:21 <AnonForecast> this does not make assagenge super powered
20:48:22 <zxcvbnm> well yeah, i agree with you
20:48:24 <AnonForecast> for making a youtube video
20:48:30 <AnonForecast> i made a youtube video too
20:48:33 <AnonForecast> its just youtube
20:48:39 <zxcvbnm> ok let me see if I can articulate my point to you
20:48:39 <AnonForecast> not supwer powers
20:48:45 <zxcvbnm> with assange as the example
20:48:48 <AnonForecast> i wouldnt waste my energy if i were you
20:48:50 <zxcvbnm> ok
20:48:52 <AnonForecast> its a failed assumption
20:48:59 <AnonForecast> assange is just an internerd
20:49:02 <monod> let him at least try
20:49:03 <AnonForecast> hes not super powered
20:49:13 <monod> or, zxcvbnm, just talk :D
20:49:22 <AnonForecast> he became a marytr when usagov attacked him
20:49:29 <zxcvbnm> I'm surprised I've wasted this much time then.. I probably shouldn't have started.
20:49:39 <AnonForecast> usagov again is source of the problem.
20:49:40 <zxcvbnm> I'm willing to listen if we want to have differeing view points
20:49:42 <anonO_o> martyrs are dead.
20:49:49 <AnonForecast> assange is practically dead
20:49:54 <AnonForecast> hes locked up in a cage for life
20:49:57 <zxcvbnm> but you probably think I'm some govt crony. I'm for peace dude.. i fucking hate war, I hate the murder of civilians in the name of "freedom"
20:50:02 <anonO_o> he does look pretty harsh
20:50:13 <zxcvbnm> but you're attaching this stigma to me as if I'm on one side or the other
20:50:13 <ShadowDemon> assange is locked up where?
20:50:17 <zxcvbnm> ecuadorian embassy
20:50:19 <zxcvbnm> london
20:50:22 <AnonForecast> ya
20:50:24 <AnonForecast> he cant leave
20:50:27 <anonO_o> he can't ever leave
20:50:31 <AnonForecast> basically
20:50:45 <ShadowDemon> wow
20:50:46 <AnonForecast> badcops gon get him
20:51:00 <anonO_o> wouldn't be surprised if they're poisoning the water into the embassy
20:51:02 <monod> I think that: "I don't care, this is the internet" shouldn't be applied to the allowing of lacking respect for others; instead, it should linked to the idea "you want to say something, but people like AnonForecast (just ane example :P don't get me wrong) don't want to hear you. But you can say it, for others to read eventually"
20:51:02 <AnonForecast> usagov killed that reporter, usagov shouldve manned up to the mistake
20:51:03 <anonO_o> just to get him
20:51:27 <AnonForecast> manning was a consciencious objector, yet being tried as enemy spy even tho there is no enemy
20:51:35 <AnonForecast> assange just made a youtube video
20:51:37 <joepie91> blerp, back
20:51:49 <monod> blerp? xD
20:51:56 <AnonForecast> joepie91, i called zxcvbnm a faggot. then i appologised bc i shouldnt be dramatic.
20:52:05 <AnonForecast> just fyi
20:52:33 <joepie91> <AnonForecast>you dont know mtg?!?!?
20:52:33 <zxcvbnm> monod: I agree -- in principle. I meant I don't care because I expect people to flame and hide behind anonymity
20:52:41 <joepie91> I might know it, just not by that abbrev
20:52:41 <AnonForecast> magic the gathering !!!!
20:52:45 <AnonForecast> zomgggg
20:52:50 <AnonForecast> the BEST gasme ever made ever
20:53:04 <AnonForecast> favorite game of MENSA
20:53:08 <joepie91> oh
20:53:08 <AnonForecast> well, that and chess
20:53:08 <monod> "I may or may not agree with what you're going to say, but I shall defend -to death- your right to say it."
20:53:09 <joepie91> nah
20:53:10 zest (zest@27C824CF.75E4C942.B5C2B35.IP) has joined #crytocc
20:53:11 <joepie91> not my kind of game
20:53:11 <monod> Voltaire.
20:53:20 <joepie91> monod: yes, blerp :P
20:53:23 <zxcvbnm> monod: cheers to that
20:53:24 <monod> xD
20:53:35 <AnonForecast> sounds like a simpsons of futurama drink
20:53:38 <joepie91> also, monod, or anyone else for that matter
20:53:41 <joepie91> fancy a game of red eclipse? :D
20:53:41 <AnonForecast> Fresh Cold Blerp!
20:53:45 <joepie91> this server is pretty wild
20:53:46 <AnonForecast> what is that?
20:53:51 <joepie91> unreal tournament style shooter
20:53:55 <AnonForecast> link me
20:54:04 <joepie91> as in, if they slapped the unreal tournament logo on it I would believe it
20:54:04 <AnonForecast> can i trash talk xbox style?
20:54:11 <joepie91> nah
20:54:13 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: I've played a few too many games today at work :P
20:54:17 <joepie91> also http://www.redeclipse.net/
20:54:23 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: red eclipse or otherwise? :P
20:54:26 <AnonForecast> i wanna pretend to be a loud obnoxious 12 yr old :(
20:54:37 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: mostly otherwise. that 10-15 mins of red eclipse was a splash
20:54:39 <zxcvbnm> hehe
20:54:40 <iceTwy> please do AnonForecast
20:54:48 * zxcvbnm is guilty of league of legends fanboyism
20:54:48 <AnonForecast> downloading
20:54:54 <AnonForecast> ive heard of that
20:54:57 <iceTwy> zxcvbnm: :<
20:55:05 <AnonForecast> im a final fantasy and studio ghibli onry snob
20:55:19 <zxcvbnm> don't hate me... I just have a video game syndrome.
20:55:21 <monod> "a Free, ***Casual*** Arena Shooter" ...lol? XD
20:55:26 <AnonForecast> i snub my nose at all other mmos, really homosexual like
20:55:27 * zxcvbnm must play video games aaahhh
20:55:30 <joepie91> iceTwy
20:55:32 <joepie91> you playing a game? :P
20:55:42 <joepie91> monod: casual as in unreal tournament style
20:55:45 <joepie91> not really esports
20:55:50 <joepie91> more arcade-ish
20:55:51 <AnonForecast> downloading
20:55:52 <monod> ok gotcha
20:55:56 <iceTwy> let's see
20:56:00 <iceTwy> I'm DLing something important
20:56:25 <AnonForecast> lately ive been playing fallouts, bioshocks, halflifes, dishonored, etc
20:56:27 <zxcvbnm> joepie91 saw me capture some serious flags
20:56:36 * zxcvbnm thought dishonored sucked
20:56:38 <monod> lately, I've been playing MATLAB
20:56:39 <monod> :(
20:56:41 <AnonForecast> seems like the m agic combo is FPS+RPG+steampunk
20:56:41 <monod> lawl
20:57:01 <AnonForecast> ANYTHING that combines those 3 gets fanboys
20:57:18 <zxcvbnm> lately ive been playing league of legend, guild wars2, little bit of worldofwarcraft (my buddy made me reactivate), and defiance
20:57:31 <AnonForecast> what is lol?
20:57:35 <zxcvbnm> moba
20:57:37 <zxcvbnm> like dota2
20:57:46 <zxcvbnm> it is one of the more addicting games i've played
20:57:50 <AnonForecast> ive heard of it
20:58:06 <AnonForecast> some google employee made a youtube video calling kids oin the internet stupid
20:58:10 <AnonForecast> so i got all up in his face
20:58:22 <AnonForecast> casued a big hubbabalo apparently
20:58:45 <AnonForecast> kids on lol* i mean
21:00:24 <iceTwy> Who speaks German hier?
21:00:42 <zxcvbnm> iceTwy: I don't think anyone. i've asked this
21:00:42 <AnonForecast> ich liber dich
21:00:47 <AnonForecast> huhu!
21:00:48 <zxcvbnm> das wilde lieben
21:00:49 <iceTwy> Dayum.
21:01:00 <AnonForecast> NEIN! spetzel!
21:01:25 <zxcvbnm> meine freundin ish aus Switzerland und meine deutsch ish nut gud
21:01:31 <zxcvbnm> abba bald
21:01:44 <AnonForecast> I figured something out about germany
21:01:52 <AnonForecast> an epiphany you could say
21:02:08 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: Estonia is a cyber superpower
21:02:21 <AnonForecast> gtfo
21:02:24 <zxcvbnm> nope
21:02:25 <zxcvbnm> i won't
21:02:26 <AnonForecast> youre banned from the internet.
21:02:29 <AnonForecast> GET OUT!
21:02:29 <mama> To discover the New Chat System, join the meeting in #ideas on today, Friday 7 June at 23:00 GMT, you may test it and ask your questions. You can reach #ideas at irc.cyberguerrilla.org; irc.cryto.net; irc.anonplusradio.com; irc.anonplus.com; Please read the goals of this project here http://www.freeanons.info/wiki/index.php?title=New_Chat_System_Project and if you are interested to help, pm...
21:02:31 <mama> ...for the devs pad
21:02:33 <AnonForecast> MAMA!
21:02:37 <AnonForecast> im pregnant and its yours
21:02:38 <mama> hello AnonForecast!!!!!!!!!!
21:03:04 <mama> AnonForecast: please join and invite some techs
21:03:22 <mama> i wish joepie91 will be there ;)
21:03:23 <AnonForecast> already did
21:03:24 <iceTwy> This song's beautiful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYdAdqYdRWE
21:03:31 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast will you invite me?
21:03:31 <AnonForecast> joepie91 is the most busy human on earth
21:03:50 <joepie91> iceTwy: ich spreche ein bisschen Deutsch, aber gar nicht enug (?) zum [create a sentence]
21:03:55 <joepie91> probably full of errors
21:03:59 <joepie91> but something along those lines
21:03:59 <AnonForecast> ok i got that game downladed
21:04:04 <AnonForecast> installing now. what room are you in?
21:04:04 <iceTwy> lol
21:04:17 <joepie91> I suck at anything that is not English or Dutch for some reason
21:04:19 <joepie91> speaking it, that is
21:04:25 <joepie91> AnonForecast: currently, none
21:04:32 <joepie91> had to exit the game to get rid of a few notifications
21:04:36 <joepie91> will get back on in a bit
21:04:43 <joepie91> but first I'd like to know if anyone else here wants to play
21:04:43 <joepie91> :p
21:05:10 <AnonForecast> can we call ourselves a cool team nanme?
21:05:15 <AnonForecast> TeamAbyss!
21:05:21 <joepie91> noes
21:05:29 <joepie91> anyway
21:05:31 <mama> zxcvbnm: I invite you warmly ;)
21:05:32 <joepie91> who else wants to join in?
21:05:44 <AnonForecast> cmon, dont be fags
21:05:45 <zxcvbnm> mama w00t
21:05:53 <mama> To discover the New Chat System, join the meeting in #ideas on today, Friday 7 June at 23:00 GMT, you may test it and ask your questions. You can reach #ideas at irc.cyberguerrilla.org; irc.cryto.net; irc.anonplusradio.com; irc.anonplus.com; Please read the goals of this project here http://www.freeanons.info/wiki/index.php?title=New_Chat_System_Project and if you are interested to help, pm...
21:05:54 <mama> ...for the devs pad
21:05:57 <mama> ^^
21:05:57 <AnonForecast> real men play with each other
21:06:08 <AnonForecast> wait
21:06:15 <AnonForecast> there must be a better way to word that
21:06:22 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: i want to join in but the w0rkz. wait didn't you just close the game lol
21:06:28 <iceTwy> true, AnonForecast
21:06:32 <joepie91> yes, I'll start it in a moment
21:06:36 <joepie91> in fact
21:06:43 <joepie91> I might wait for others to DL
21:06:45 <joepie91> hang laundry in the meantime
21:06:47 <joepie91> then come back and play
21:06:48 <joepie91> :P
21:07:06 <joepie91> laundry doesn't do itself, sadly
21:07:24 <zxcvbnm> mine does. it's terrific
21:07:40 * joepie91 can see the case for tumble drying
21:07:59 <zxcvbnm> I don't like the way my clothes smell when I hang them up
21:11:18 <joepie91> ?
21:11:25 <joepie91> what does hanging them have to do with smell?
21:12:18 <zxcvbnm> have you tumble dried your clothes before ?
21:12:30 <monod> joepie91, I will join another time :) thanks for invitation anyway
21:12:53 <monod> (in case you were waiting for me too!)
21:13:25 <zxcvbnm> When my clothes hang-dry they sort of get a mildewy smell sometimes (not everytime)
21:13:47 <joepie91> zxcvbnm: my parents used to tumble dry
21:13:48 <joepie91> I hang them
21:13:59 <joepie91> I have never had a strange smell from my clothes after hanging them
21:14:20 <joepie91> actually, I have, but that was because of the laundry soap stuff I used
21:14:31 <joepie91> the one I use now (and most of the ones I've used) don't have that problem
21:15:09 * joepie91 is currently using washing powder for white laundry at high temperature, and liquid soap stuff for all the other laundry
21:16:20 <zxcvbnm> Yeah
21:16:34 <zxcvbnm> I just prefer the smell from dryers -- but I am sensitive to smells :P
21:19:22 <joepie91> well, so am I :P
21:19:35 <joepie91> actually, I'm kind of sensitive for anything around me
21:19:42 <zxcvbnm> maybe the material is just better in NL
21:19:43 <joepie91> sound, vision, smell, etc
21:19:50 <joepie91> oh wait, US right?
21:20:01 <joepie91> that country where single-stitched clothes are considered normal, apparently?
21:20:02 <zxcvbnm> yup
21:20:02 <joepie91> :|
21:20:08 <zxcvbnm> wait
21:20:12 <zxcvbnm> single stitched
21:20:13 <zxcvbnm> ....
21:20:27 * zxcvbnm there's more than one stitching option?
21:20:35 * zxcvbnm looks down at his shirt
21:20:43 <joepie91> one moment.
21:20:45 LastOneStanding (lalalala@5C0B2CEF.B458528D.147E7205.IP) has joined #crytocc
21:20:50 <joepie91> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jakehimself/the-10-year-hoodie-built-for-life-backed-for-a-dec
21:20:53 <anonO_o> well, they do live on $4 walmart shirts made in India
21:21:09 * zxcvbnm does not shop at walmart, in all fairness :)
21:21:16 <joepie91> look under 'theirs'
21:21:24 <joepie91> and under 'ours'
21:21:27 <joepie91> (in the stitching part)
21:21:44 <joepie91> what they try to market as "awesome, worth the money" for their 'product', is something that is bog standard in NL
21:21:52 <joepie91> as in, even the cheapest of the cheapest clothes have proper stitching
21:22:06 <joepie91> I've heard waaaaay too many USians confirm that the crappy single stitch thing is indeed common in the US
21:22:12 <joepie91> even for certain more expensive clothes
21:22:14 <joepie91> so, wtf
21:22:31 <joepie91> anonO_o: my shirts are 4-5 euro
21:22:34 <joepie91> from the discount store
21:22:36 <joepie91> typically
21:22:46 <joepie91> they're properly stitched, and of good material
21:23:01 <joepie91> not sure how $4 shirts would be an excuse
21:23:10 <zxcvbnm> oh. that explains a lot :(
21:23:16 * zxcvbnm stops unraveling the string on his shirt
21:23:32 <joepie91> lol
21:23:49 <joepie91> but yeah, it would not surprise me if the material of clothes there is indeed worse
21:23:51 <joepie91> considering this
21:24:12 <zxcvbnm> I went shopping the other day w/ my gf.. I spent way too much money
21:24:28 <zxcvbnm> but I got good quality clothes -- I don't think any of them were single stitch, but I'm gonna definitely investigate now
21:25:45 <crytocc-c2> (sighs)
21:25:48 <zxcvbnm> lol...
21:25:48 <zxcvbnm> You'll receive two sweatshirts that are GUARANTEED to last you 10 YEARS (that's more than most marriages)!
21:27:04 <joepie91> lol
21:27:26 <joepie91> my average clothes shopping trip costs me 20-30 euro
21:27:34 <joepie91> I buy cheapshit clothes, and they last me forever
21:27:43 <zxcvbnm> I don't shop very often, which is good
21:27:54 <joepie91> 4-5 euro for a short, 2 euro for 3 pairs of socks, 9 euro for a pair of pants
21:28:00 <zxcvbnm> I can probably tell you how much I spent on clothes this whole year (and last year)
21:28:10 <joepie91> 8-12 euro for a hoodie
21:28:11 <joepie91> etc
21:28:12 <zxcvbnm> My problem is, I wouldn't even be able to ballpark how much money I've spent on booze
21:28:16 <joepie91> hm
21:28:21 <joepie91> maybe there's a bit of a problem there ;)
21:28:29 <joepie91> s/short/shirt/
21:28:29 <zxcvbnm> at least I address it... lol
21:28:29 <joepie91> derp
21:28:35 <joepie91> typo tiem!
21:28:55 * zxcvbnm needs to discipline his inner Rex
21:29:40 <zxcvbnm> http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2013/01/15/how-do-i-get-over-my-bad-habit-of-procrastinating/
21:29:46 <zxcvbnm> I need to apply some of this logic to me
21:35:00 <mama> joepie91: will you join our meeting? did you read the pad?
21:35:11 <joepie91> I did not, actually
21:35:16 <joepie91> I kind of have a free friday evening
21:35:21 <joepie91> :P
21:35:26 <mama> do you want i pm it again?
21:35:36 <joepie91> I don't really want to get involved in a meeting right now, tbh
21:35:42 <joepie91> having that free friday for a reason...
21:35:50 <joepie91> need to get into a more productive rhythm
21:35:55 <joepie91> tonight is cool off night ;P
21:35:58 <joepie91> :P *
21:36:26 <mama> you know i like your comments, maybe not join the meeting, but put your remarks on the pad, fair enough?
21:40:59 <zxcvbnm> does anybody have any good resources for unlocking iphones?
21:46:03 <joepie91> mama: later
21:47:02 <joepie91> AnonForecast: still there?
21:47:04 <mama> sure later haha ;)
21:47:54 <AnonForecast> im here
21:47:57 <AnonForecast> game installed
21:47:58 <AnonForecast> ready>?
21:48:08 <joepie91> yes
21:48:10 <joepie91> let me start the game
21:48:10 <joepie91> :)
21:48:29 * zxcvbnm grrr
21:48:41 <crytocc-c2> lol
21:49:07 <AnonForecast> k
21:49:11 <AnonForecast> loading it
21:51:46 <joepie91> AnonForecast: what server do you want to play on?
21:52:29 <joepie91> hm
21:52:35 <joepie91> 'Server 3' has quite a few players
21:52:39 <joepie91> ima join there
21:53:06 kvasir (kvasir@cryto-9B6B837F.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #crytocc
21:53:46 zest has quit (Ping timeout)
21:53:50 ShadowDemon has quit (User quit:  Leaving.)
21:53:51 ShadowDemon (alexgurrol@cryto-507D6D5.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #crytocc
21:54:01 <anonO_o> A new player has entered the game.
21:54:08 <anonO_o> *BOOM* Headshot!  You are dead.
21:54:16 <ShadowDemon> Yeah, someone got me
21:54:24 <ShadowDemon> or something
21:54:29 <joepie91> lol
21:54:59 <crytocc-c2> lol
21:55:06 <joepie91> hmm, bomber ball...
21:55:12 <joepie91> I wonder what that is
21:55:19 <joepie91> OH
21:55:19 <joepie91> THAT IS AWESOME
21:55:26 <joepie91> oh wow
21:55:28 <joepie91> this is gonna be awesome
21:58:05 <AnonForecast> ok im in
21:58:21 <AnonForecast> omega team on biggest map, i think 6 ppl in it?
21:58:41 <AnonForecast> can we make this a semi official AnonNews sport?
21:59:22 <AnonForecast> server 3?
22:01:18 <AnonForecast> joepie91, i need tactical advise
22:01:35 <joepie91> try not getting shot
22:01:35 <joepie91> :P
22:02:32 <monod> is there anything that may notify when news on cryptome.org are up?
22:04:10 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: double-tap your movement keys to dodge, that is how you win at this type of game
22:04:25 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: get in the habit of double tapping left, double tapping right
22:04:40 <zxcvbnm> AnonForecast: makes getting shot MUCH harder. if you bunny hop you are an easier target.
22:05:46 <joepie91> blah
22:05:51 <joepie91> ohai AnonForecast
22:05:53 <joepie91> I see you in my team
22:05:56 <AnonForecast> did we win?
22:06:02 <AnonForecast> i only got like 3 frags and 19 points :(
22:06:14 <joepie91> we lost
22:06:19 <AnonForecast> touble tapping? ok ty
22:06:27 <joepie91> vote
22:06:28 <AnonForecast> tap R/L, no hop
22:06:29 <joepie91> hit f3
22:06:30 <joepie91> and vote
22:06:31 <joepie91> for ghost
22:06:42 <joepie91> bla
22:06:43 <joepie91> fuu
22:06:48 <kvasir> lololol
22:07:33 <joepie91> D:
22:10:10 <AnonForecast> PEW PEW
22:10:13 <AnonForecast> TAKE THAT
22:10:20 <AnonForecast> tap sliding = win
22:10:23 <AnonForecast> whats best weapon?
22:11:47 <joepie91> AnonForecast
22:11:49 <joepie91> are you fucking psychic
22:11:51 <joepie91> how can you see where I am
22:11:52 <joepie91> lol
22:14:02 <AnonForecast> im PWN like trhat
22:14:03 <joepie91> zxcvbnm
22:14:07 <zxcvbnm> yesh
22:14:08 <joepie91> can you stop teaching AnonForecast how to shoot me
22:14:09 <joepie91> thanks
22:14:13 <zxcvbnm> woopsadaisy
22:14:27 <AnonForecast> im jsut using tab slide and shoow
22:14:29 <AnonForecast> shoot
22:15:39 * kvasir bobbles
22:16:30 speakeasy has quit (Ping timeout)
22:16:42 <AnonForecast> fuck who is max pain doom?
22:16:46 <AnonForecast> hes owning EVERYONE
22:16:47 <joepie91> ha!
22:16:48 <joepie91> nah
22:16:49 <joepie91> ail is
22:16:55 <HiveResearch> there's a game
22:16:59 <joepie91> both I guess
22:17:00 <HiveResearch> where?
22:17:00 <AnonForecast> can we bot spam that guy or something?
22:17:30 <AnonForecast> vote for what aghain?
22:17:45 <AnonForecast> ghost
22:18:16 <zxcvbnm> what server are you guys on ?
22:18:18 <AnonForecast> o shit, slid of the side
22:18:20 <AnonForecast> server3
22:18:37 <HiveResearch> LANK 2 GAEM
22:20:26 <joepie91> D:
22:20:45 <joepie91> stop killing my sniper spots :(
22:20:51 <joepie91> THERE
22:21:07 <HiveResearch> r we play 3d or 2d gaem?
22:23:04 <AnonForecast> FUCK CLIFF
22:23:13 <AnonForecast> http://www.redeclipse.net/
22:27:49 <joepie91> jesus
22:27:55 <joepie91> we were absolutely fucked
22:27:58 <zxcvbnm> bahaha
22:28:01 <AnonForecast> 12frag 49pt
22:28:15 <AnonForecast> Requesting tactical strategy advice
22:28:39 <joepie91> advice; don't get shot
22:28:40 <joepie91> :p
22:29:08 <kvasir> hahaha
22:32:42 <kvasir> time to reboot this mac because they're just like windows pc's, and seemingly need to be rebooted regularly :(
22:34:05 kvasir has quit (User quit:  three sheets to the wind)
22:34:08 <joepie91> aw
22:39:08 <AnonForecast> 62pts 14frags but im still lowest?
22:39:24 <zxcvbnm> muhahaha
22:39:30 <joepie91> man
22:39:34 <joepie91> I wonder where all these players came from
22:39:35 <joepie91> heh
22:39:41 <zxcvbnm> its prime playing time in US
22:39:44 <joepie91> we sudenly had like 5 new players
22:39:44 <joepie91> yes
22:39:45 <AnonForecast> i recruited them
22:39:46 <joepie91> but this is red eclipse
22:39:48 <joepie91> it's open source
22:39:51 <joepie91> this is rare
22:39:51 <joepie91> :P
22:39:55 <AnonForecast> I R LEGION!
22:39:56 <zxcvbnm> even open source games have peak hours right? :P
22:40:01 <joepie91> not usually
22:40:09 <joepie91> pft
22:40:12 <joepie91> queued spawn
22:40:18 <AnonForecast> i am the trainwreck that you cannot take your eyes away from
22:40:30 <AnonForecast> Do not doubt my gravity
22:42:58 ShadowDemon has quit (Ping timeout)
22:45:02 monod has quit (User quit:  gotta goooooo)
22:47:06 HiveResearch has quit (Ping timeout)
22:50:26 <AnonForecast> 84pt 17frag
22:50:32 <joepie91> I like this :D\
22:50:32 <AnonForecast> how doppl fly and nuke?
22:50:52 <AnonForecast> you not gonna like it when i learn to fly and nuke
22:50:55 <zxcvbnm> w00t
22:51:00 <zxcvbnm> 1st
22:51:15 <AnonForecast> I shall deliver Legion Incarnate upon thy soul!
22:51:19 <AnonForecast> are you doom?
22:51:23 <AnonForecast> fuck that guy!
22:56:35 <joepie91> I feel like I'm laggin veyr adly
22:56:37 <joepie91> badly *
22:57:30 <joepie91> god
22:57:34 <joepie91> this is near unplayable
22:57:37 <joepie91> my hardware can't andle this
22:57:37 <joepie91> :(
22:57:46 <AnonForecast> whathardware u have?
22:57:51 <AnonForecast> can u siwtch to wireframe mode?
22:58:01 <AnonForecast> or something lower lag?
22:58:09 <joepie91> I'm on lowest settings
22:58:15 <joepie91> this level is just very visually complex
22:58:59 <AnonForecast> ya
22:59:01 <AnonForecast> i dotn like it
23:00:01 <joepie91> ail plays like a bot
23:01:56 <zxcvbnm> w00t
23:02:00 * zxcvbnm likey
23:02:23 <zxcvbnm> ok folks
23:02:25 <zxcvbnm> headin home
23:02:26 <zxcvbnm> see ya'll
23:02:28 <joepie91> aww
23:02:31 <joepie91> ttyl :)
23:02:51 zxcvbnm has quit (User quit:  leaving)
23:03:36 HiveResearch (HiveResear@developers.developers.developers) has joined #crytocc
23:05:55 flate has quit (Client exited)
23:10:02 ShadowDemon (alexgurrol@shadowdemon.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
23:12:59 <joepie91> well that was amusing
23:12:59 <joepie91> :)
23:16:34 <joepie91> time for a shower!
23:18:02 <ShadowDemon> i just finished my shower :P
23:24:14 <AnonForecast> indeed
23:24:30 <AnonForecast> joepie91, ever considered opening a Games channel on AnonNews?
23:38:19 <pzuraq> sup joepie91
23:44:26 <joepie91> AnonForecast: nah, don't consider it relevant enough
23:44:28 <joepie91> pzuraq: hai!
23:44:36 <joepie91> you've missed a few rounds of red eclipse
23:44:36 <joepie91> :P
23:44:42 <pzuraq> D:
23:44:47 <pzuraq> oh wells
23:44:51 <joepie91> with zxcvbnm teacing AnonForecast how to shoot me
23:44:52 <joepie91> :(
23:45:54 zest (zest@cryto-84C88BCC.torservers.net) has joined #crytocc
23:46:17 <pzuraq> you should check out the site I'm working on
23:46:21 <pzuraq> and tell me what you think
23:46:26 <pzuraq> of the concept, and the design
23:46:26 <pzuraq> www.swopp.it
23:47:56 <joepie91> search page, gray headers -> bad readability
23:48:18 <pzuraq> ooh yeah
23:48:21 <pzuraq> still working on that
23:48:22 <joepie91> also, not enough information on the site for me to judge whether good concept or not
23:48:22 <joepie91> :P
23:48:31 <joepie91> uh
23:48:33 <pzuraq> it's not supposed to be all grey, the background will be white
23:48:35 <joepie91> when you click login
23:48:39 <joepie91> you get a hideous standard bootstrap modal
23:48:43 <joepie91> with a form
23:48:48 <joepie91> and there's white arrows overlaying it
23:48:52 <pzuraq> lol
23:48:53 <pzuraq> ah
23:49:00 <pzuraq> fixing that too, right now
23:49:13 <joepie91> also, the inset shadow thing on the buttons seems a bit too heavy
23:49:23 <joepie91> it looks pretty nice other than that
23:49:34 <pzuraq> bootstrap is not going to to be the final look of the site, btw, just using it for rapid prototyping
23:49:47 <joepie91> there's also no hand cursor when mousing over buttons in the menubar
23:49:47 <joepie91> right
23:49:52 <joepie91> are you aware of purecss btw? :P
23:49:55 <joepie91> http://purecss.io iirc
23:51:53 <pzuraq> I've seen it before, I'm using bootstrap right now because of familiarity and support. Bootstrap modals and other plugins have ready-to-go Ember views, so it's a nice toolkit
23:52:06 <joepie91> Ember?
23:52:22 <pzuraq> Ember.js, it's what we're building the site with currently
23:52:41 <pzuraq> we might be switching to a pure Rails site since Ember doesn't seem to benefit us
23:53:02 <pzuraq> mostly using it at this point because we need to get a basic version working for tomorrow and again, familiarity
23:53:06 <pzuraq> meeting with VCs tomorrow
23:53:14 <joepie91> meh, VC
23:53:30 <pzuraq> heh, I know you're opinion :P
23:53:35 <joepie91> your*
23:53:41 <pzuraq> and I'm actually inclined to agree at this point
23:54:00 <pzuraq> I don't want VC money when, currently, we are going to be providing what is essentially a free coordination service
23:54:05 <pzuraq> no monetization plans
23:54:10 <joepie91> well, see, that's the problem
23:54:20 <joepie91> the only thing VCs like more than giving away money
23:54:21 <joepie91> is receiving money
23:54:28 <joepie91> so there's going to be an obvious problem there...
23:54:34 <pzuraq> lol
23:54:58 <pzuraq> yeah, but eventually we do want to monetize, if for no other reason than to start making enough revenue to run the site
23:55:09 <pzuraq> so I could see them buying in at that point
23:55:29 <pzuraq> but I'd like to test the market first and see if it can be successful without the need for VC money
23:55:53 <joepie91> eh..
23:56:00 <joepie91> it might be me
23:56:05 <joepie91> but how much does a listing site cost to run?
23:57:35 <pzuraq> not much. I figure we could subsist on shipping fees (we'd provide better deals via a bulk distributer and add a small fee on top for us, save the customer money and make us some too)
23:57:44 <pzuraq> and escrow services for people trading valuable items
23:58:13 <pzuraq> maybe promoted items as well
23:58:13 <joepie91> if it doesn't cost much to run... then why do you pose keeping it running as a challenge? :P
23:58:23 <joepie91> see, that's the thing
23:58:35 <joepie91> you don't seem to be thinking about _whether_ you need to 'monetize' (blurgh) it
23:58:38 <joepie91> but about _how_
23:58:42 <joepie91> you skipped a step there
23:58:52 <joepie91> honestly, a listing site really isn't much more than a database with a basic frontend
23:59:07 <joepie91> that's a solved problem, and has been one for god knows how long, in terms of resources
23:59:33 <pzuraq> hey, I'm not skipping their at all. I'd consider donations a potential avenue for "monetization" in that sense as well :P
23:59:44 <pzuraq> depends on how big it gets, how many trades we are doing, etc