Cryto! 13 May 2013
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02:21:02 <___> 啊啊啊
02:21:26 <RuDy> 啊啊啊
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05:20:33 <jizzzzzz> 這啥\~?
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06:08:21 <Cryto306> ...........................................
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06:09:06 <a-lYc> ???
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06:16:05 <a-lYc> net user yu1u yu1u /add
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06:21:05 <Cryto639> fuck you!
06:21:31 <Cryto639> ?
06:22:22 <a-lYc> net user yu1u yu1u /add
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06:25:05 <Cryto114> ?
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06:25:16 <chucky> ../
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06:33:39 <Cryto405> e
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07:02:50 <Cryto391> what IRC is this？
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08:46:46 <zhufu> 湾湾亲。。。
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09:28:45 <Cryto816> 1
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09:37:06 <Cryto249> lol
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11:04:43 <Cryto988> 告、
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11:41:16 <DrWhat> I think we are getting spammed
11:42:01 <DrWhat> Cryto311 was last seen on #crytocc as "Cryto405", 1min 25secs ago
11:42:05 <DrWhat> Cryto167 was last seen on #crytocc as "Cryto311", 45secs ago
11:42:05 <DrWhat> 14 Cryto668 was last seen on #crytocc as "Cryto167", 5mins 34secs ago
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12:44:20 <DrWhat> joepie91 Noob spam
13:03:03 <joepie91> DrWhat: someone probably posted a failed webchat URL
13:03:48 <DrWhat> well do somthing about it
13:03:59 <DrWhat> Wait
13:04:08 <DrWhat> Funny how it stoped after i detect it....
13:06:40 <joepie91> DrWhat: there is nothing to "do about it"
13:06:50 <joepie91> if someone posts http://irc.lc/cryto without a channel behind it for whatever reason
13:06:52 <joepie91> then they end up here
13:06:54 <joepie91> that is intended behaviour
13:07:50 <DrWhat> I wanrt a egg butty
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14:20:29 <HiveResearch> openttd! openttd! openttd! openttd! openttd! openttd!
14:52:18 <DrWhat> ?
14:52:32 <DrWhat> is it for sure now?
14:52:39 <DrWhat> we can has .lol domains :D
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14:56:48 <Cryto277> 現在呢
14:59:40 <joepie91> wrong channel
14:59:45 <joepie91> you're probably looking for #zh-tw
15:00:39 <DrWhat> joepie91 whats #zh-tw?
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15:01:08 <joepie91> I have absolutely no idea
15:07:33 <DrWhat> hmmm
15:09:03 <DrWhat> im just saying
15:09:14 <DrWhat> Looks dangerours
15:09:21 <DrWhat> dangerus*
15:10:00 <MK_FG> No worries, you're safe here
15:10:15 <MK_FG> ...at least until I get to your decadent country!
15:10:36 <MK_FG> Everyone will buuuurn!!!
15:10:43 <MK_FG> Bwahahaha!
15:29:46 <zest> lol ...
15:35:00 <DrWhat> MK_FG and coffee in your house
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15:39:57 <MK_FG> Sounds like a door-to-door shopping scam
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16:03:57 <zxcvbnm> morning
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16:07:01 <joepie91> ohai
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16:53:37 <Cryto477> anyone working on the VPS-LIST or related projects?
16:54:17 <Cryto477> we have gotten through to an initial selection of the VPS/VDS/VPN/etc service providers trying to establish a standard schema for xml/json product/services definitions
16:54:41 <Cryto477> there are only a dozen lists of service providers, all of which do not accurately represent the situations
16:54:57 <Cryto477> especially legal jurisdictions, actual service, and all the extra issues
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16:56:15 <Cryto477> wtf
16:56:30 joepie91 (joepie91@cryto-3E6002EF.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
16:57:39 <Cryto477> joepie91: back?
16:57:52 <Cryto477> <Cryto477> anyone working on the VPS-LIST or related projects? [06:54] <Cryto477> we have gotten through to an initial selection of the VPS/VDS/VPN/etc service providers trying to establish a standard schema for xml/json product/services definitions [06:54] <Cryto477> there are only a dozen lists of service providers, all of which do not accurately represent the situations [06:54] <Cryto477> especially legal jurisdictions, actual service
16:58:20 <joepie91> godddamn ISP
16:58:33 <joepie91> ohai Cryto477, I assume you're @FOIA_PW
16:58:33 <joepie91> ?
16:58:36 * Cryto477 thinks thats the point ;)
16:58:53 *** Cryto477 is now known as vps-list
16:58:57 <joepie91> welcome to #crytocc, please be aware that this channel is publicly logged etc etc
16:59:03 <joepie91> and don't forget to read the topic :P
16:59:25 <joepie91> loggy, pointer?
16:59:25 <loggy> http://wire.cryto.net/logs/crytocc/2013-05-13#T16-59-25
17:00:01 <joepie91> alright
17:00:03 <vps-list> we have called a few dozen of the host service providers, namely VPS/VPN and most are very interested in a standard schema for xml/json
17:00:15 <joepie91> vps-list, if I understand correctly, you're looking for a standardized way to retrieve information from providers about the services they offer
17:00:41 <vps-list> in our case, we just need to allocate vds for custom images to load, so we may as well do everything at once correctly
17:00:42 <vps-list> yep
17:00:46 <joepie91> right now, there is no such thing provider-side, and the only real sources of such information are vps-list, lowendstock, and serverbear, all of which are manually maintained
17:00:47 <vps-list> have you seen any schemas for that?
17:00:49 <joepie91> and as such prone to errors
17:00:52 <joepie91> I have not (yet)
17:01:02 <vps-list> also exoticvps and a few others
17:01:07 <joepie91> but I've been wishing for something like that to exist for a while
17:01:18 <joepie91> exoticvps doesn't always list things in the same format, however
17:01:35 <joepie91> one particular thing that I've noticed being absent
17:01:39 <joepie91> is whether the host uses maxmind/etc or not
17:01:40 <vps-list> most of the vendors are motivated to participate
17:01:46 <joepie91> read: whether you can sign up with fake details or not
17:02:09 <joepie91> this is kind of important, since most bitcoin-accepting hosts still require valid details on file, contrary to what people expect
17:02:17 <joepie91> and, right
17:02:20 <joepie91> who have you talked to so far?
17:02:21 <vps-list> one large concern is that the virtualizer and physical accounts may be controlled and backdoored by nato/uk/usa shell company
17:02:37 <joepie91> that is always a possibility
17:02:53 <joepie91> there is literally no way to remove that possibility
17:02:54 <vps-list> so the vps vendor is clean, the physical location is clean / known, but the vmware backdoor is full proxy
17:03:09 <vps-list> it MUST however be documented as a legal requirement, so just need to find those references and map them
17:03:20 <joepie91> ?
17:03:42 <vps-list> the service provider for most regions must indicate who the contractor is
17:03:59 <joepie91> as in, keep files on customers?
17:04:14 <joepie91> to my understanding, the legislation on that is quite fuzzy in many jurisdictions
17:04:20 <vps-list> vps6 has good documentation on that problem, they are .ca.us but the boxes are global, their services are all molested by usa/nato
17:04:34 <joepie91> as in, companies have to hand over that data to law enforcement on request, but it's not clear whether the data should be there in the first place
17:04:35 <vps-list> -- obviously not the ones you want to select ;)
17:04:47 <joepie91> most companies play safe and keep data
17:04:58 <joepie91> MK_FG might be able to weigh in on this
17:05:19 <vps-list> yes, the legal policy and jurisdiction is a known issue, but also they use middleman intermediaries, especially for the cloud systems, where the americans actively can reroute and MIM the virtualizer
17:05:34 <joepie91> technically speaking, this is always a possibility
17:05:38 <joepie91> due to how BGP works
17:05:39 <vps-list> all of these issues, though, are simple indexes in a schema to model them correctly
17:05:59 <joepie91> if $user is in the US, or any place that is routed through the US, and $host is anywhere
17:06:06 <joepie91> any ISP in the US could theoretically MITM the connection
17:06:11 <vps-list> routing, trace mapping, etc are all relevant as well, but this situation is transparent and undetectable
17:06:26 <vps-list> as can the VMWare rootkit on the servers
17:06:30 <vps-list> so, with all this in mind
17:06:38 <vps-list> most of the product offerings are fairly standard
17:06:38 <joepie91> you know that almost no hosts actually use vmware, right?
17:06:45 <vps-list> its a well documented example
17:06:54 <joepie91> yes, but also one that is out of the ordinary\
17:07:01 <joepie91> the mass of virtualization platforms is open-source
17:07:02 <vps-list> s/vmware/xen/
17:07:05 <joepie91> and those are the most commonly used
17:07:36 <vps-list> I specifically need to know which providers provide for custom images, the virtu system used, etc
17:07:58 <vps-list> others will care about openvpn and the vpn provider specifics
17:08:09 <vps-list> also dnssec and dns server situations
17:08:17 <joepie91> I think that this discussion topic warrants more of my attention and time than I can afford to give right now, because I kind of have to do work
17:08:23 <joepie91> so perhaps we should continue this discussion later
17:08:27 <vps-list> many of the hosting cos block dns out for flood issues,
17:08:33 <vps-list> all we need, really
17:08:42 <vps-list> is the schema to establish and expand the templates
17:08:52 <vps-list> so a community and the providers can populate the data
17:09:24 <vps-list> this is generally a schema editor for collaboration, and a data input/xmlhttpget script
17:09:51 <joepie91> as I said, we should probably continue discussing this later ;)
17:09:52 <vps-list> now, we need to find someone to help implement that simple part
17:09:55 <MK_FG> Sounds like you need to interest some big player, e.g. rackspace
17:09:59 <vps-list> anyone paying attention?
17:10:17 <MK_FG> So that they'll put together some huge standard on the format and details and start using it
17:10:26 <vps-list> MK_FG: most of them have either an interest in providing the data, or have easily ripped websites of standard format
17:11:02 <vps-list> there are only 30 virt combinations, with a finite set of configuration variables ;)
17:11:03 <MK_FG> And the managers in all the minor players should hear the hype, look at the thing and go "hey, we can do this too"
17:11:22 <vps-list> most of the sales systems can export an xml with product listings
17:11:53 <vps-list> we need to translate that and merge the data structures for interface
17:12:08 <vps-list> it is possible that the same tools could automate provisioning, etc, something I am working on now
17:12:31 * vps-list is sick of finding severe holes or fraud in the various shell company service providers
17:12:47 * vps-list doesnt like buying HW either, prefers VPS/VDS alloactions
17:14:38 <vps-list> joepie91: 's little meta- manager tool is potentially relevant
17:14:48 <vps-list> its just another ripper script with abstraction
17:15:19 <joepie91> (actually, vps-list isn't automated - it's all hand-maintained information)
17:15:54 <vps-list> the same issue exists with payment processing, so many of the service providers are blacklisted because of fraud and other stupidity
17:16:05 <vps-list> (know that? is the point?)
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17:16:27 <vps-list> but even if cryto list is expanded, there is still hundreds of factors/variables that need to be handled
17:17:02 <vps-list> I am also concerned about the mapping of the physical implementation, hate having clusters too far apart in a single data center, and hate having too many boxes on one rack / power supply
17:17:04 <vps-list> simple stuff
17:17:23 <vps-list> all this needs is an exhaustive standard schema based on the range of options available
17:17:51 <vps-list> so, if a few humans can help write up the schema templates, some translation logic, and interface
17:17:57 <vps-list> we can get the process started easily
17:18:05 <vps-list> and let the rest of the world help populate it ;)
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17:19:47 <vps-list> ?
17:22:54 <vps-list> and noone wants to bother doing ti
17:23:25 <joepie91> vps-list: people typically aren't watching IRC 24/7 ;)
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17:23:43 <joepie91> the whole standardization of this stuff is something I've been thinking about for a while
17:23:50 <joepie91> but I currently don't have the time to work on it actively
17:23:53 <vps-list> i didnt know there could even *be* "people"!!!
17:23:55 <MK_FG> vps-list, You want the ultimate semantic web!
17:24:02 <joepie91> and *right now* I don't even really have the time for discussing the details
17:24:07 <vps-list> welp, MK_FG ... ya, doing that is fairly simple
17:24:16 <vps-list> if someone would just follow instructions and code the js
17:24:52 <vps-list> joepie91: i think we all know how to get it done, but just needs someone to start it
17:25:09 <MK_FG> I can't understand how you can possibly think it to be that simple, but I didn't had much xp with hosters
17:25:13 <joepie91> also, vps-list, [off] is used in here to prefix a message that you don't want publicly logged
17:25:22 <joepie91> read: google-indexed
17:25:27 <vps-list> k
17:25:33 <joepie91> preferably only use it if you really don't want it indexed
17:25:33 <joepie91> :)
17:25:41 <joepie91> anyway
17:25:44 <vps-list> I will look around some more for schema components
17:25:46 <joepie91> theoretically speaking standardization is pretty easy
17:25:52 <joepie91> it just requires work
17:25:53 <joepie91> and cooperation
17:25:56 <joepie91> the latter will be the trickiest
17:26:02 <vps-list> its just a matter of getting the translation and standards done
17:26:12 <vps-list> there are a lot of little variables to find
17:26:43 <vps-list> i'd rather not have to do HDL profiles from the wires in the facility all the way through the vps's os ;)
17:26:46 <joepie91> vps-list: right, I suggest downloading http://treesheets.com/ and using it to write an initial (structured) list of variables
17:26:48 <joepie91> that have to be included
17:27:04 <joepie91> it's a spreadsheet editor meets mindmap meets text editor
17:27:10 <joepie91> very suitable for this kind of thing :)
17:27:17 <joepie91> nested tables and all
17:27:21 <vps-list> was going to make a JS tool, realtime collaboration
17:27:31 <joepie91> if you have the time for that, by all means do it
17:27:34 <vps-list> ya, the world lacks schema constructors
17:27:38 <joepie91> the internet needs more realtime collab platforms
17:27:44 <vps-list> its needed for the providers to structure their data
17:27:45 <joepie91> open ones that is
17:27:56 <vps-list> or moreso, the existing API and tools used there
17:28:10 <vps-list> things like #AVAILABLE are quite relevant in service provisioning ;)O
17:28:51 <vps-list> treesheets is cute, any similar implementation in js?
17:29:04 <joepie91> not that I am aware of
17:30:02 <vps-list> anyone familiar with js who wants to follow instructions to get this done? its a few hours but I havent kept track of JS issues lately
17:30:30 <joepie91> perhaps twitchyliquid64 may be interested
17:30:44 <joepie91> or even wh1t3r4bb1t
17:31:48 <vps-list> twitchyliquid64: wh1t3r4bb1t beep!
17:33:28 <vps-list> uugh treesheets is intrinsicly limited... there are still no correct semantic modelers anywhere
17:33:35 * vps-list blames darpa and nato
17:35:23 <vps-list> a note from one of the providers:
17:35:25 <vps-list> I see. Well, since they are all using WHMCS (the majority) I think it will be easier if you actually develop a module for whmcs that will allow the companies to choose which plans to automatically list on the xml, which will be publically accessible by you. And from there, you will be able to manipulate the data and do your "magic" in your site? I think this will be the easiest way, otherwise you will end up with 10000 different xml's a
17:35:56 <vps-list> joepie91: how is your meta-api interface to those control systems?
17:36:21 <vps-list> MK_FG: there's your rackspace
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17:37:26 <MK_FG> Not sure what you mean, but such "one big pusher" model seem to be the one that seem to work on the web... somewhat, yeah
17:37:54 <MK_FG> No one cares about standard without backers ;(
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18:34:04 <monod> friends
18:34:16 <monod> I had an idea, yesterday evening
18:34:28 <monod> oh well
18:34:41 <monod> before that, I will google it to see if anyone had it first xD
18:34:43 <monod> back asap
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18:51:46 <joepie91> ohai monod
18:51:58 <monod> ohai joepie!
18:53:31 <monod> oh my god!
18:53:37 <monod> "Internet of things"
18:53:42 <zxcvbnm> I am a banana!
18:53:45 <monod> from wiki: "... If all objects and people in daily life were equipped with radio tags, they could be identified and inventoried by computers. ..."
18:53:58 <monod> actually it's what it is nowaday!
18:54:12 * monod is thinking of mobiles!
18:54:42 <monod> and of course email addresses
18:55:16 <MK_FG> Yeah, identified - inventorized - tracked - stolen (e.g. "nationalized")
18:55:41 <zxcvbnm> I wish someone would just make something cool on the internet :(
18:55:49 <monod> "tracked - stolen" ? MK_FG
18:55:52 <joepie91> there are many cool things on the internet
18:56:01 <MK_FG> It'd be nice to put a web interface to a teapot though
18:56:05 <monod> and of course outside the internet
18:56:26 <monod> hahahaha
18:56:26 <zxcvbnm> joepie91: I'm talking World of Warcraft style cool, we haven't had a Facebook since Facebook
18:56:30 <monod> remote web interface XDD
18:56:35 <monod> with proxy XDD and Tor xD
18:56:45 <zxcvbnm> And if that's the last thing that changed the game , that's sad
18:57:57 <MK_FG> Proxies and tor are not necessary if you can put it all into some self-organizing mesh
18:57:58 joepie91 has quit (Broken pipe)
18:58:47 <MK_FG> Which, given the trends in prices on chips, miniaturization and power efficiency, seem to be teh future one way or another
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18:59:39 <MK_FG> Or dunno, maybe it all will hit some brick wall suddenly, tech is weird
18:59:42 <monod> yeah, in real Internet of Things style
19:00:54 <monod> related to your second to last message
19:01:07 <monod> dinner timeee
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20:03:37 <vps-list> bbl msg http://twitter.com/foia_pw to continue net services list issues
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20:24:44 <monod> just watch a documentary on how people of the third world get their salary
20:24:49 <monod> really impressive
20:25:38 <monod> I had a little more of an explanation of why I'm better studying
20:26:21 <monod> but it's still a really far reality, since I'm now back at my usual pc, in my shared bedroom
20:26:58 <monod> the real pity is that all of their everyday reality is not advertised in any way in our world, or better:
20:27:14 <monod> there are some campaigns asking you to donate to associations
20:27:32 <monod> but even those do not come any close to reality
20:28:09 <monod> or better: even those donation campaigns give you no clue of what's "under the hood" of most (all?) techonological things
20:28:54 <monod> I'm lucky to have had a rigid education, that taught me rigidness, temperament
20:30:12 <monod> but I also lack a bit of it, since I still live in... some kind of "tranquillity"
20:31:37 <monod> mine is not true tranquillity, if compared to the people I see everyday, but it does when compared to the third world's overall(?) living condition
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20:32:35 <monod> I know I may sound banal... that's what I would have thought before too
20:33:02 <monod> but also I have come to an end of this public consideration
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20:57:23 <monod> is XMPP capable of replacing current social networking with success?
20:57:30 <monod> and with decentralisation?
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21:23:54 <joepie91> monod: doubtful
21:24:00 <joepie91> XMPP is just a transport protocol of sorts
21:24:19 <monod> damn
21:24:30 <joepie91> there's Diaspora, though ;)
21:24:33 <monod> so now I have to know what a transport protocol is, at least a vague idea
21:24:38 <monod> what's that?
21:24:59 <joepie91> https://joindiaspora.com/
21:25:36 <monod> hell yeah
21:25:44 <monod> that's the idea I was thinking of, yesterday evening
21:26:04 <monod> and I also thought someone had it before me, since I'm not that much into these things atm
21:26:21 <monod> but the homepage is truely unfriendly!
21:27:18 <monod> so, we personally may contribute hosting a server of ours own?
21:27:47 <monod> joepie91, http://podupti.me/
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21:34:07 <joepie91> monod: I'll probably consider setting up a public pod in the near future
21:34:12 <joepie91> when I get around to users.cryto.net
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21:34:37 <joepie91> planning on combining everything (git, remotestorage.io, diaspora, XMPP, etc) into one user system
21:34:42 <joepie91> so that you sign up once
21:34:44 <joepie91> and can use all
21:35:48 <monod> and you may eventually be candidate for the internet history hall of fame :D
21:37:43 <monod> is diaspora* a mature project yet? or maybe.. since it's at 0.3.4.. it might need some time before a mature release
21:38:57 <joepie91> my god...
21:38:58 <joepie91> http://rt.com/usa/patented-monsanto-court-patent-210/
21:39:02 <joepie91> this is beyond insanity
21:39:08 <joepie91> monod: it's been going well for a few years now
21:39:10 <joepie91> diaspora I mean
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22:08:05 <Cryto700> ?
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22:14:44 <monod> even heard about sdf.lonestar.org, joepie91?
22:15:29 <joepie91> vaguely rings a bell
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22:28:32 <monod> it sounds amazing to me
22:28:39 <monod> a remote unix shell!
22:28:48 <monod> a remote computer account, free for you to use!
22:29:00 <monod> sounds like free vps! :D
22:29:06 <monod> not really, but
22:29:56 <monod> since I can't use any other real remote hosting service, this one is like heaven!
22:35:01 <joepie91> :P
22:35:09 <joepie91> there's quite a few free shell providers
22:37:49 <joepie91> man, my belief that opensuse is unsuitable for servers has been further reinforced
22:38:45 <joepie91> I should not have to jump through a million hoops to get a httpd + php + ssh2 stack running because the packagers make illogical decisions
22:38:56 <joepie91> still awesome as desktop OS, but seriously, don't run it on a server
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22:57:13 <zxcvbnm> http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/saudi-surveillance/
22:58:55 <monod> sdf.lonestar.org free shell provider definitely's not free! :D
22:59:14 <monod> but you only have to pay 1$ to get the minimum
23:00:51 wh1t3r4bb1t (antarctica@wh1t3r4bb1t.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
23:07:25 <monod> "pico - An easy to use and full featured editor. Select this unless you know what you're doing." hahahaahah
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23:53:41 <monod> http://www.ghacks.net/2013/05/13/firefox-21-0-find-out-what-is-new/
23:53:46 <monod> FF21, oh my god
23:53:54 <monod> it's the update race xD