Cryto! 12 May 2013

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11:31:04 <monod> hello guys
11:31:47 <monod> need suggestions on how to build from zero my own homepage, on my computer
11:32:07 <monod> I have installed the "web server" package when installing the distro
11:32:39 <monod> and I know I have a folder, /var/www/, which has the purpose of hosting the website
11:32:46 <monod> I have two problems for now:
11:32:47 <RuDy>
11:32:59 <monod> let me google that for you??
11:33:08 <monod> I was coming to my point..
11:33:24 <monod> the points are two, at the moment:
11:33:49 <monod> afk
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11:42:17 <mama> Meeting tonight May 12 at 11:00pm GMT in #ideas for your questions about the new chat system; Join us at ,  lis5ghm2ai4yjoxy.onion or
12:02:09 monod (~pmpf@monod.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
12:02:16 <monod> back again
12:03:13 <monod> so, I was saying: 1) is it safe to have a website whose owner on the pc is root? 2) can you share some security countermeasures to apply to hosted websties?
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12:28:55 <monod>
12:28:59 <monod> take this! :D
12:29:16 <monod> or read the description of the anon-proxy package
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12:52:43 <mama> Joepie our bot Machno still banned here :(
12:56:28 <mama> Please unban /
12:57:08 <mama> so we can relay your network to tonight meeting about the new chat system
12:57:27 <mama> you may even test it and give your comments
12:59:31 <twitchyliquid64> mama: new chat system?
12:59:55 <mama> twitchyliquid64:
13:02:34 <twitchyliquid64> thx
13:06:01 <mama> yw :)
13:06:26 <mama> twitchyliquid64: tonight we have a meeting to give more explanations
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14:20:46 *** Xeross|AFK is now known as Xeross
15:09:15 <lady-3jane> no you don't want to have a website hosted by root, because if they get into your site, it's at root level, so they get EVERYTHING
15:12:29 *** Xeross is now known as Xeross|AFK
15:28:28 <MK_FG> If website is the only thing of value there, then sure - let'em have it!
15:33:11 <lady-3jane> lol
15:33:41 * lady-3jane listens to chick rock
15:35:28 <lady-3jane> NP: [The Donnas - Too Bad About Your Girl] [Spend The Night] [975kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
15:35:29 <lady-3jane> :D
15:36:26 <MK_FG> Looking at hyperboria map, found where eztv keeps their servers - ;)
15:37:54 <lady-3jane> huh
15:38:00 <lady-3jane> is that the alternet thing
15:38:11 <lady-3jane> vpn overlay shit
15:38:13 <lady-3jane> I forget
15:38:15 <MK_FG> Teh daaaarknetz!
15:38:24 <MK_FG>
15:38:37 <lady-3jane> well maybe, but one of em was just an overly complicated internet inside the internet
15:39:05 <lady-3jane> hmm
15:39:12 <lady-3jane> I am thinking of maybe dn42
15:39:20 <lady-3jane> but they appear similar
15:40:25 <lady-3jane> I feel like connecting to a darknet would either be incredibly safe or incredibly unsafe, depending on who was there
15:40:31 <MK_FG> Wah, no, cjdns makes it much simplier than doing ad-hoc tunneling
15:40:54 <lady-3jane> oh, cause the old ones required you to run quagga and shit
15:41:04 <lady-3jane> which is why I refused to even investigate them
15:41:26 <MK_FG> And it handles all the routing, basically you do --genconf, add some peer, start it, and it gives you an ipv6 tun device plugged to teh net - done!
15:42:22 <lady-3jane> huh
15:42:26 <lady-3jane> nifty
15:42:39 <lady-3jane> and much improved over setting up your own routing software and tunnel software
15:44:39 <MK_FG> ipv6 address there is also fingerprint of your ed25519 key, so static and unique
15:44:57 <lady-3jane> neat
15:45:09 <lady-3jane> so it's ipv6 ecc end to end?
15:45:16 <MK_FG> Yep
15:45:18 <lady-3jane> there should be a `+` in there somewhere
15:45:19 <lady-3jane> haha
15:45:26 <lady-3jane> I forgetted it
15:45:41 <lady-3jane> ?KAFFE
15:45:44 <lady-3jane> damn
15:45:51 <lady-3jane> <data1> KAFFE GRANDE! MOAR KAFFE 4 Aranje...!
15:45:51 <lady-3jane> <data1>                  _
15:45:52 <lady-3jane> <data1>               /" = "\
15:45:52 <lady-3jane> <data1>              (| ¬_¬ |)
15:45:52 <lady-3jane> <data1>              q\  =  /p
15:45:52 <lady-3jane> <data1>           ____/ --- \____
15:45:57 <lady-3jane> <data1>         .'           //  `.
15:45:58 <lady-3jane> <data1>        /         :  //     \
15:46:00 <lady-3jane> <data1>       /   ∫________//       \
15:46:02 <lady-3jane> <data1>       |  |\________/    |   |
15:46:04 <lady-3jane> <data1>       |  ||             |   \
15:46:06 <lady-3jane> <data1>       \   \         ____/-. /
15:46:08 <lady-3jane> <data1>     ___`. .'----^.^-\  `. .'___
15:46:10 <lady-3jane> <data1> ."" '<   `._____<|>_/___.' _> \"".
15:46:12 <lady-3jane> <data1> | | :  `- \`. ;`. _/; .'/ /  .' ; |
15:46:14 <lady-3jane> <data1> \  \ `-.   \_\_`. _.'_/_/  -' _.' /
15:46:16 <lady-3jane> <data1>  `-.`___`-.__\ \___  /__.-'_.'_.-'
15:46:18 <lady-3jane> <data1>      Golden    Code   Buddha!
15:46:20 <lady-3jane> hmm, mine doesn't copy colors
15:46:40 <MK_FG> |\      _,,,--,,_  ,)
15:46:42 <MK_FG> /,`.-'`'   -,  ;-;;'
15:46:42 <MK_FG> |,4-  ) )-,_ ) /\
15:46:42 <MK_FG> '----'(_/--' (_/-'
15:46:44 <MK_FG>
15:46:46 <MK_FG> Mehfail
15:46:52 <MK_FG> efnet kitteh
15:46:56 <lady-3jane> hey hey, I waited
15:47:05 <lady-3jane> :P
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15:47:32 <lady-3jane> hot dicks, that you can't even touch
15:47:49 <MK_FG> Wat
15:48:02 <lady-3jane> I changed one word from a song
15:48:11 <lady-3jane> made it 100x better
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16:02:39 <MK_FG> I'm getting more and more confused by how ff handles ipv6
16:02:49 <MK_FG> http://[fc5d:baa5:61fc:6ffd:9554:67f0:e290:7535]/ is valid address, ok
16:03:02 <MK_FG> But why http://[fc5d:baa5:61fc:6ffd:9554:67f0:e290:7535]/ is not?
16:03:08 <MK_FG> Oops
16:03:35 <MK_FG> Should be http://[fc7b:d79a:4eb5:28f6:5686:637d:9f75:5db6]/
16:04:05 <lady-3jane> shit-tier internet says Error 109 (net::ERR_ADDRESS_UNREACHABLE): Unable to reach the server.
16:04:10 <MK_FG> Just "The address isn't valid" and clears the URL bar
16:04:21 <lady-3jane> report you a bug?
16:04:36 <MK_FG> They're on the hype-net, so shouldn't be routable from teh outside
16:04:49 <lady-3jane> doesn't matter, I have no ipv6
16:04:49 <MK_FG> fc::/7 is "local" range on ipv6, I think
16:05:36 <lady-3jane> my link local is fe80
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16:05:45 <lady-3jane> which is the one I commonly see
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16:07:04 <MK_FG> Hm, true, it's something a bit different, it seems -
16:07:10 <MK_FG>
16:07:38 <lady-3jane> mao tse tung said change must come, change must come through the barrel of a gun
16:07:43 <lady-3jane> NP: [alabama 3 - mao tse tung said] [exile on coldharbour lane] [906kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
16:08:21 <lady-3jane> also, a small amount of entertainment for you, MK_FG
16:08:24 <lady-3jane> nontechnical
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16:09:00 <lady-3jane> hahaha best lyrics
16:09:16 <lady-3jane> "this place would be a paradise tomorrow if every department had a supervisor with a submachinegun"
16:10:04 <MK_FG> Hm, right, link-local fe80::/10 can be used like that as well, but lower range is also mapped to mac's, so shouldn't be used
16:10:43 <MK_FG> (as it might conflict with some mac among neighbors and screw up nei discovery, broadcasts and such)
16:10:53 <lady-3jane> so fc::/7 is local too? Or are they just using it
16:11:11 <MK_FG> They are *true and proper* local!
16:11:16 <lady-3jane> hahaha
16:11:16 <MK_FG> (fc::/7)
16:11:18 <lady-3jane> yeah
16:11:27 <lady-3jane> official spec local
16:11:27 <lady-3jane> :3
16:11:37 <MK_FG> rfc4193-local!
16:11:40 <lady-3jane> hot
16:12:01 <lady-3jane> I'm waiting for new ipv6 implementations
16:12:15 <lady-3jane> all I hear is fud from people who are like "but it's less secure than ipv4!"
16:12:33 <lady-3jane> I'm like "well yeah, we've had 20+ years to work around ipv4's shortcomings"
16:13:04 <lady-3jane> 6 has been around for 10 iirc, but not with nearly as wide deployment
16:13:14 <lady-3jane> shit, must be 15 years now
16:13:17 <MK_FG> New ipv6 implementations meaning ipv8? ;)
16:13:34 <lady-3jane> haha nah, new rfc's to fix shortcomings, and implementation changes to fix stuff
16:13:48 <lady-3jane> there's been a flurry of them in the last couple years
16:13:57 <MK_FG> Oh, but it's not like you can "wait till it's done" - it's an eternal loop
16:14:05 <lady-3jane> I know
16:14:19 <lady-3jane> I only hope someday I have native ipv6
16:14:24 <MK_FG> At least until ipv8 arrives
16:14:29 <lady-3jane> pretty much
16:14:35 <lady-3jane> I don't actually want 4->8
16:14:41 <lady-3jane> that seems like an overly large transition
16:14:43 <lady-3jane> ;D
16:14:57 <lady-3jane> also soon http2
16:14:59 <MK_FG> And we run out of 128-bit space due to being transformed into gray-goo nanomachines
16:15:04 <lady-3jane> I'm so excited though
16:15:09 <lady-3jane> all the old shit is getting updated
16:15:32 <lady-3jane> soon ipv6, http2, spdy
16:15:41 <MK_FG> Eheh
16:15:54 <MK_FG> This "soon" might as well be 15 more years!
16:16:00 <lady-3jane> I mean I run spdy already on my shit, but that's just cause I'm a bitch
16:16:05 <lady-3jane> that's fine
16:16:12 <lady-3jane> that's soon for enterprise
16:16:13 <MK_FG> (at least for ipv6)
16:16:15 <lady-3jane> which is what slows us
16:16:42 <lady-3jane> I'd specify the difference between enterprise and gov, but there isn't one in usa
16:16:42 <lady-3jane> lol
16:16:52 <MK_FG> Given that everyone seem to be running nginx these days, spdy looks like a done thing
16:16:58 <lady-3jane> yeah
16:17:06 <lady-3jane> I was so happy they mainlined it for 1.4
16:17:21 <lady-3jane> everyone'll get up onto that in the next 2 years
16:17:34 <lady-3jane> maybe 1.6 will default to spdy enabled
16:17:41 <lady-3jane> so no listen 443 spdy;
16:18:21 <lady-3jane> so maybe a 2-4 year transition and 25% of the frontends run spdy native
16:18:31 <lady-3jane> and that's current numbers, nginx grows every month
16:20:27 <lady-3jane> hahaha win
16:20:37 <lady-3jane> drone saved a guys life in canada
16:20:51 <lady-3jane>
16:21:16 <lady-3jane> watch as the news gets splattered with stories like that to turn the tide around
16:22:42 <MK_FG> I expected the first comment to be "I, for one, welcome our drone overlords"
16:22:58 <MK_FG> Tis' a slashdot after all
16:24:17 <lady-3jane> yeah
16:24:20 <lady-3jane> I like that one better
16:24:29 <lady-3jane> and, I do
16:24:31 <lady-3jane> but lol
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16:29:11 <lady-3jane> hahaha MK_FG you did the same thing as me, putting all your shit on your contact page
16:29:20 <lady-3jane> you should mark it up with hcard metadata
16:29:21 <lady-3jane> lol
16:29:40 <MK_FG> Well, why do you think I suggested it ;)
16:29:46 <lady-3jane> :3
16:30:36 <lady-3jane> I put my zipcode on there, and you can have a 9 digit zipcode in the us
16:30:45 <lady-3jane> which gives my neighborhood
16:30:53 <lady-3jane> :3
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16:32:29 <lady-3jane> mostly cause my neighborhood is very pretty
16:32:30 <lady-3jane> ;p;
16:32:33 <lady-3jane> * lol
16:33:58 <mama> did joe show up today?
16:34:43 <lady-3jane> not yet
16:36:25 <mama> Meeting tonight May 12 at 11:00pm GMT in #ideas for your questions about the new chat system; Join us at , lis5ghm2ai4yjoxy.onion or; you may test it
16:36:37 <mama> thanks lady-3jane :D
16:36:52 <lady-3jane> np
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17:13:17 <joepie91> mama, can you PM me the exact message your bot gets upon connecting
17:13:22 <joepie91> I cannot find a ban for that IP...
17:14:05 <mama> joepie91: let me ask doemela before, thanks
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17:14:23 <joepie91> note that I need the *exact* message
17:14:25 <joepie91> copypasted
17:14:28 <joepie91> not part of it
17:14:31 <joepie91> not just one line of it
17:14:38 <joepie91> the entire message that is received upon connection attempt
17:16:31 <lady-3jane> I would be willing to bet their bot is behaving badly
17:18:14 <mama> joepie91: he is attemting to connect to have that msg
17:19:46 <lady-3jane> copypasta :D
17:21:16 <mama> lady-3jane: interesting to know
17:27:58 <mama> joepie91: msg on your pm
17:29:02 <lady-3jane> hahaha I use google translate enough that it gives me options to fix their translations
17:29:13 <lady-3jane> So I do ;3
17:29:21 <mama> LOL
17:29:41 <lady-3jane> I'm excited that, though I suck at french, I'm good enough to be able to fix translations
17:29:54 <lady-3jane> I know when google translate is fucking with me
17:29:58 <lady-3jane> :3
17:30:22 <mama> haha
17:55:27 <MK_FG> Bubbling up through "obsoleted-by" RFC links, found gem
17:55:46 <MK_FG> All teh speshul ip ranges in one rfc
17:56:15 <MK_FG> No more confusion over what fe80::/10 is!
18:00:41 <lady-3jane> nice
18:01:30 <joepie91> wow.
18:01:33 <joepie91>
18:01:37 <joepie91> this is just... I have no words
18:01:52 <joepie91> for how low these people are
18:02:47 <joepie91> "hey, ima just set up a shitty social network by grabbing premade 'social network' software, changing it to a terrible theme, and then try to market it by convincing armchair activists that they're helping charity even though I get 75% of the profits"
18:02:54 <joepie91> fuckers
18:03:44 <joepie91> these are the kind of people that come up with the retarded "buy this $5 product now and we donate $0.10 to a charity!" bullshit
18:04:06 <MK_FG> Language there reminds me of sweet Markov Chains
18:12:32 <lady-3jane> that's horrible joepie91
18:13:30 <MK_FG> Is it more horrible than any other con though?
18:13:53 <lady-3jane> yes, because it falls into advertising on the web AND scam
18:14:05 <lady-3jane> NP: [1200 Micrograms - Hashish] [1200 Micrograms] [257kbps] DeaDBeeF 0.5.6-3jane
18:20:20 <joepie91> MK_FG: I reserve a special place in the hate corner of my mind, for those that try to con others and use 'charity' (in the broadest sense of the word) as a coverup
18:20:28 <joepie91> cc lady-3jane
18:20:54 <joepie91> actually, that entire sentence should be interpreted in its broadest sense.
18:21:24 <MK_FG> Do you consider charity being a good thing in general?
18:21:51 <MK_FG> Fairly sure it's not a universal point of view (e.g. objectivism)
18:22:33 <joepie91> MK_FG: interpreted as 'doing selfless good to help others', yes
18:23:47 <MK_FG> I think I can agree with that one, then ;)
18:24:38 <MK_FG> But the "good" here should mean "without hooking-up others on that charity and taking all such side-effects (e.g. wars over charity-stuff) into account"
18:25:12 <MK_FG> Which I don't think is ever realistic
18:25:29 <joepie91> I... am not sure I understand what you mean
18:26:58 <MK_FG> Simple example: you give me money, I get lazy and ask for more, you stop doing that, I die, being left with worse self-sustain-ability than w/o charity
18:27:24 <MK_FG> So it's not "good" effect, from a broader perspective
18:28:31 <MK_FG> And charity distributed to some third-world countries seem to have much worse effects than destroying their infrastructure
18:29:03 <MK_FG> wars and insane levels of power abuse emerging due to uneven distribution of it
18:29:41 <joepie91> right, uh
18:29:44 <joepie91> I should probably clarify
18:29:55 <joepie91> I have a slightly different definition of 'good' from most, it seems
18:30:05 <joepie91> 'good' for me is not anything that emotionally feels right or justified
18:30:13 <joepie91> (such as giving money to a beggar)
18:30:40 <joepie91> 'good' for me, is doing something that genuinely helps someone out, that genuinely increases their chances to have decent living standards, something that genuinely helps their freedom, etc
18:30:48 <joepie91> something that has effect in the real world, not just in theory
18:31:06 <joepie91> I do not donate to any charities for this reason
18:31:17 <MK_FG> Yep, that's what I meant in 'But the "good" here should mean...'
18:31:30 <joepie91> unless a certain organization or person has a clearly defined goal, and I am confident that my donation will help them reach that goal
18:31:32 <joepie91> efficiently
18:31:44 <joepie91> it's also why I, for example, refuse to donate to YAN
18:31:53 <joepie91> even though I'm quite happy about their stated plans
18:32:03 <joepie91> because I do not believe they will use my donation optimally
18:32:05 <joepie91> or even in an effective way
18:32:13 <joepie91> but yeah
18:32:24 <joepie91> assuming the above definition of good, I definitely believe charity is always a good thing to do
18:32:24 <joepie91> :P
18:32:35 <joepie91> but, looking back, that seems like somewhat circular reasoning..
18:33:13 <MK_FG> Hmm
18:35:06 <MK_FG> I'm not sure if "selfless" should be there - isn't that "good" being "what you consider to be good for the world" - so it's not selfless, since it's what *you* want
18:35:44 <MK_FG> Confusing philosophies!
18:42:51 <joepie91> MK_FG: an essential part of charity is selflessness, as in no [intention of] personal benefit
18:47:40 <MK_FG> Right
18:53:18 <lady-3jane> so the word you're looking for is altruism, I think
18:56:46 <MK_FG> "Altruism is a motivation to provide something of value to a party who must be anyone but one's self"
18:57:19 <joepie91> asdfasdfsdfasdfasdf why does this module not do what its source says it does...
18:57:23 <MK_FG> It seems that "value" there might be perceived (by self) as a "bad thing", not "good"
18:57:58 <joepie91> observations say that all messages with type 'chat' are caught in 'message' event
18:58:08 <joepie91> source disagrees, says that all messages are caught in 'messages' event full stop
18:58:18 <joepie91> so.. where the hell are my non-chat messages going?
18:58:39 <MK_FG> I wonder if there's a word for the person doing "bad" altruistic action - "sadist" seem to imply some pleasure to self...
19:11:34 <lady-3jane> what do you mean bad altruistic?
19:11:52 <lady-3jane> value is of the person receiving, not giving
19:12:07 <lady-3jane> it's not altruism if you're not actually helping them
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19:13:57 <MK_FG> "motivation to provide something of value" seem to imply otherwise
19:14:06 <lady-3jane> there are certain interpretations of altruism which frame it as a self-centered behavior, even
19:14:13 <lady-3jane> I'm not using your defintion
19:14:17 <lady-3jane> :P
19:14:56 <MK_FG> You didn't provde yours yet arguing on terminology, sir troll! ;)
19:15:12 <lady-3jane> yours is shitty and materially centered
19:15:15 <lady-3jane> :P
19:15:29 <lady-3jane> sec, lemme grab my psych book
19:15:49 <MK_FG> I don't see "value" as necessary something material
19:16:00 <MK_FG> So I don't see why it'd be "materially centered"
19:16:11 <lady-3jane> providing something of value is to me quite clearly material
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19:16:33 <lady-3jane> because if it weren't, it would be closer to "selfless helping behavior"
19:18:06 <MK_FG> Not sure what dd you mean by the latter
19:18:39 <lady-3jane> selfless means without regard to yourself
19:18:44 <MK_FG> But I seem to assign "value" to things like "happiness", "peace" and such
19:18:59 <MK_FG> So interpret the thing differently ;)
19:19:17 <MK_FG> Btw, I pulled that definition from wikipedia
19:20:31 <lady-3jane> yeah, so here's the definition my book uses (and the one I use myself): "unselfish behavior that benefits others without regard to consequences for the self"
19:21:06 <lady-3jane> I do not like the use of value
19:21:15 <lady-3jane> in your def
19:21:38 <MK_FG> Yeah, it can mean different things like that
19:22:05 <lady-3jane> if it's valuable you can put a dollar number on it, and the whole point of altruism is that you are NOT putting a dollar sign on it
19:22:28 <lady-3jane> and indeed the altruistic person can be harmed by their actions
19:23:17 <MK_FG> Well, "unselfish behavior that benefits others" can be "give other last $100", right?
19:23:23 <MK_FG> So you can put $ in there! ;)
19:23:50 <lady-3jane> perhaps, but as I say, the value to the receiving person may be much greater than the 100$ given
19:24:14 <lady-3jane> perhaps that 100$ lets them keep a car, which allows them to continue working
19:24:21 <lady-3jane> that value is then much greater than merely 100
19:24:31 <lady-3jane> so, it's silly to quantify it on dollars
19:24:32 <lady-3jane> :P
19:25:33 <MK_FG> It's not always appicable, yeah, hence I don't agree with "if it's valuable you can put a dollar number on it"
19:26:36 <lady-3jane> which is why I do not like using value in the definition. it gets into semantics when you don't need to
19:27:57 <MK_FG> "unselfish behavior that benefits others" in the definition above seems incomplete though
19:28:16 <lady-3jane> why
19:28:39 <lady-3jane> well also you forgot "without regard for self"
19:28:41 <lady-3jane> but, why
19:28:53 <MK_FG> If it's unintentional benefit to others due to action "without regard to consequences for the self"
19:29:33 <MK_FG> Like, you want to harm party A "without regard..."...
19:29:40 <lady-3jane> I would not say intentions matter
19:29:49 <MK_FG> ...and that ends up benefitting party B
19:29:50 <lady-3jane> when making heros here, we do not consider intentions
19:29:52 <lady-3jane> only the outcome
19:30:15 <MK_FG> It's hard to say that one's altruistic towards B in that case ;)
19:30:24 <lady-3jane> then it was not altruistic! you keep coming up with scenarios where some party other than yourself is harmed. that cannot be altruism.
19:30:57 <lady-3jane> it's helping others.
19:31:11 <MK_FG> Hm, so it's "unselfish behavior that benefits ALL THE others without regard to consequences for the self"
19:31:25 <lady-3jane> that's what others means
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19:31:30 <lady-3jane> benefits
19:31:33 <MK_FG> Not to me, apparently
19:31:37 <lady-3jane> it does not say sometimes benefits
19:31:47 <lady-3jane> :P
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19:32:12 <lady-3jane> think... pareto optimisation for helping
19:32:15 <MK_FG> Ok, reverse example time!
19:32:36 <MK_FG> One helps poor kids however one can...
19:32:48 <MK_FG> ...and they survive, consuming one in the process
19:32:55 <MK_FG> ...but then go and do horrible things
19:33:06 <MK_FG> So net benefit to others is hugely negative!
19:33:20 <lady-3jane> your examples suck
19:33:28 <lady-3jane> you have at least two different scopes there
19:33:44 <lady-3jane> scope for society, scope for individuals, scope for time
19:34:10 <lady-3jane> you helped them without regard to self, that is altruism
19:34:19 <lady-3jane> why would you be responsible for what they did after that?
19:34:26 <MK_FG> Without thinking about the broader picture?
19:34:33 <lady-3jane> that makes no sense
19:34:52 <lady-3jane> you're asking everyone to predict the future?
19:34:55 <lady-3jane> I can say only a few people are capable of seeing that clear enough to act on it
19:35:06 <MK_FG> You can, yeah
19:35:31 <lady-3jane> and in that case, you must decide if you're interested in individual benefit or collective benefit
19:35:44 <lady-3jane> the USA for example, is not so supportive of collective benefit
19:35:58 <lady-3jane> hence being one of the only first world countries with no universal healthcare system
19:36:04 <MK_FG> Short-sighted altruism seem to be "altruism" to me, but is evil
19:36:33 <lady-3jane> I'm sure the poor people helped would be very grateful for not dying
19:36:48 <lady-3jane> or homeless or whatever their bad-case might be
19:37:28 <lady-3jane> and yes, there are arguments around this all :D
19:37:54 <MK_FG> Yeah, healthcare thing is quite controversal
19:37:57 <lady-3jane> there is an argument (due to understandings of how people think) that says altruism can be a wholly selfish behavior
19:38:19 <lady-3jane> because some people derive pleasure from others being happy
19:38:28 <lady-3jane> so, they altruistically help others... but it's so they're happy
19:38:34 <MK_FG> Otherwise why'd they do it?
19:38:38 <lady-3jane> so is it really altruism? :)
19:38:55 <lady-3jane> it often does not make me happy to help other people, but I do it
19:39:15 <MK_FG> I thnk you might be lying there
19:39:15 <lady-3jane> I think helping as many people as possible will make society better
19:39:20 <lady-3jane> it's for collective good, not my own
19:39:32 <lady-3jane> I guess I benefit slightly from it, but in the long term
19:39:33 <lady-3jane> not short
19:40:09 <MK_FG> You like doing the good thing for collective above doing good thing for self, so you get net-positive selfish behavior
19:40:37 <MK_FG> (given that one good conflicts with the other)
19:40:41 <lady-3jane> yeah, and that's the argument against altruism being truly altruistic :P
19:40:55 <lady-3jane> your collective benefit is self benefitting
19:41:01 <MK_FG> Teh evil altruists
19:41:04 <lady-3jane> :P
19:42:35 <lady-3jane> I mean yeah, the benefits I want to create are for everyone alive, which includes me :P
19:42:48 <MK_FG> Ok, what I got out of it is that (once again) meta discussions about human behavior suck
19:42:53 <lady-3jane> but the amount of work required for the benefit I will see from it is not commensurate
19:43:01 <lady-3jane> hahah yes
19:43:05 <lady-3jane> it's fun though
19:43:06 <MK_FG> they never lead to anything
19:43:15 <lady-3jane> but it's good to know
19:43:37 <lady-3jane> once you learn there are no truths, you begin to see things as they are (irony is not lost on me)
19:44:08 <lady-3jane> but this view is not for everyone
19:44:18 <lady-3jane> it will be of great benefit to me if I work at supra-national level
19:44:52 <MK_FG> "no truths" indeed seem to be an objective thing in itself, hence "the truth"
19:44:57 <lady-3jane> :P
19:45:03 <MK_FG> Or how to say it, "abstract"
19:45:07 <lady-3jane> yeah
19:45:27 <lady-3jane> the only truths are abstract, I would agree with that :P
19:45:52 <lady-3jane> even mathematics, which is very good, has things which cannot be proven true or false
19:47:17 <MK_FG> But then they just make no sense in the context where that's the case, no?
19:47:47 <MK_FG> So you narrow the context down and - whoosh - they are provable one way or the other there
19:48:19 <lady-3jane> probably :)
19:48:41 <lady-3jane> this is where you get into modern discussions of rights, and whether they should be ranked, or if scoping works better, or what
19:48:59 <lady-3jane> which is the stuff I should be reading today
19:49:02 <lady-3jane> but haven't started yet
19:49:03 <lady-3jane> haha
19:49:44 <MK_FG> I can imagine why ;)
19:50:02 <lady-3jane> I can't :D
19:50:08 <lady-3jane> I love this stuff :P
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19:51:47 <lady-3jane> I am waiting until school is over and I will keep writing on free will
19:51:59 <lady-3jane> that is what I am tackling :P
19:52:07 <lady-3jane> and maybe rights
19:52:26 <lady-3jane> but if I do a writing on rights, it will be very long
19:53:05 <lady-3jane> mostly because I do not believe in natural rights at all, and I have to sufficiently show why I think that's a dumb concept
19:53:26 <MK_FG> What is "natural rights"?
19:53:39 <lady-3jane> rights a person has even without a government
19:53:56 <MK_FG> Heh, yeah, I also think it's bs
19:54:05 <lady-3jane> rights someone has innately, because they are human
19:54:06 <lady-3jane> basically
19:54:22 <lady-3jane> but our country is based on a concept of natural rights
19:54:29 <lady-3jane> and people complain when the government removes them
19:54:48 <lady-3jane> but if they were not enunciated in our constitution or laws, I don't believe you have them
19:55:04 <MK_FG> I don't see much point in the "right" concept at all
19:55:29 <lady-3jane> I do. It's a minimum bar for treatment for people, to me
19:55:48 <MK_FG> Enforced by whom?
19:55:59 <lady-3jane> the government, that's my point
19:56:03 <lady-3jane> I'm not saying natural rights
19:56:10 <MK_FG> Down with the government!
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19:57:40 <MK_FG> ...if defined as "some group of people who are allowed to do what others cannot without reasonable oversight by everyone who the can do that to"
19:58:14 <MK_FG> And as soon as you add that oversight, there's not much point in that government beyond just advisory
19:58:56 <lady-3jane> I don't define govt that way
19:59:09 <lady-3jane> you are biasing your definition heavily
19:59:22 <MK_FG> I'm biasing everything, always
19:59:37 <MK_FG> Remember "no truths" thing? ;)
19:59:38 <lady-3jane> though you live in a country whose government is implemented in the way you define, so it makes sense
19:59:59 <MK_FG> It seem to be the case everywhere
20:00:07 <MK_FG> E.g. in US you can't tax your neighbor
20:00:23 <MK_FG> But gov can collect and use violence, if necessary
20:00:51 <lady-3jane> you don't have the right to tax your neighbor, no
20:01:08 <lady-3jane> and at some point the right to NOT be taxed was ceded
20:01:19 <lady-3jane> so you don't have that right anymore either
20:01:30 <lady-3jane> look at us, just giving away all our rights :P
20:01:59 <MK_FG> Heh, "right not to be X" ;)
20:02:02 <lady-3jane> or not fighting to keep them, whichever
20:02:05 <lady-3jane> yeah
20:02:10 <lady-3jane> negative versus positive rights
20:02:11 <lady-3jane> :P
20:02:24 <lady-3jane> modern discussions of rights :P
20:02:38 <MK_FG> Completely insane model
20:02:54 <lady-3jane> yeah, there are problems with it
20:03:00 <lady-3jane> but there is no perfect system I think
20:03:37 <MK_FG> I think the simple model of incentives and no fixed "right to" is better way to think about stuff
20:03:43 <lady-3jane> because the issue right now is we have rights as a trump card, so if anyone says "that infringes my rights" the other person automatically loses. But what if two people both say it infringes their rights? who wins? must we rank rights?
20:04:10 <lady-3jane> can we define things which truly are rights, and other things which are "freedoms"?
20:04:21 <lady-3jane> freedoms can be taken away or adjusted, rights cannot
20:04:21 <lady-3jane> etc
20:04:32 <lady-3jane> that's what my class is going over right now :D
20:04:49 <lady-3jane> going over is wrong, discussing is more accurate
20:04:52 <lady-3jane> we have no textbook
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20:16:35 <monod> hello guys
20:18:34 <MK_FG> \\o
20:22:12 <mama> Meeting tonight May 12 at 11:00pm GMT in #ideas for your questions about the new chat system; Join us at , lis5ghm2ai4yjoxy.onion or || Read
20:23:23 <joepie91> (in other words: also here on cryto, no need to connect to another network)
20:24:25 <mama> joepie91: yes :D
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20:27:08 <joepie91> mama: was just pointing it out, as cryto was at the end of the luist
20:27:09 <joepie91> list *
20:27:11 <joepie91> and perhaps easily missed
20:27:11 <joepie91> :)
20:29:53 <mama> joepie91: because we just opened the channel here and we are trying to have a relay in it
20:30:08 <joepie91> relay doesn't work yet?
20:30:14 <mama> cryto is never missed
20:30:40 <mama> it works but there is another one in other networks that causes loops
20:30:58 wh1t3r4bb1t (antarctica@wh1t3r4bb1t.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
20:31:08 <joepie91> aha :P
20:49:06 <mama> relay at #ideas works ;)
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22:10:06 <DrWhat> joepie91 i found the root server for all sourceforge Projects
22:10:19 <joepie91> k
22:10:38 <DrWhat> accualy know
22:10:43 <DrWhat> no*
22:10:46 <DrWhat> its a backup server
22:11:38 <DrWhat>
22:11:48 <DrWhat> Looks like last backup was march last year
22:13:04 <DrWhat> there also every ubuntu release from 8.04 to current
22:13:41 <DrWhat> kubntu, xubuntu etc etc
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22:15:06 <DrWhat> every centos from 2.1
22:15:14 <DrWhat> and debian
22:15:30 <DrWhat> But the debian's are alias'd so i dont know whats version's whats
22:15:55 <DrWhat> Fedora, from 8 to current
22:15:56 DrWhat ( has joined #crytocc
22:16:05 <DrWhat> lol?
22:16:07 <DrWhat> fedora
22:16:07 DrWhat ( has joined #crytocc
22:16:12 <DrWhat> Hmmm
22:16:15 <DrWhat> Why is that then?
22:17:33 <DrWhat> joepie91 What is feroda a sweary?
22:17:40 <DrWhat> i like feroda
22:18:36 <joepie91> starts with 'fed'
22:18:53 <DrWhat> :/
22:19:08 <DrWhat> so fed is swaery? but fedora isnt?
22:19:18 wh1t3r4bb1t (antarctica@wh1t3r4bb1t.users.cryto) has joined #crytocc
22:19:27 <DrWhat> so you wildcarded fed
22:32:15 <joepie91> yes
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23:13:05 <zest> loggy pointer
23:13:26 <zest> loggy, pointer?
23:13:26 <loggy>
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23:42:31 <DrWhat> I remeber why
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