Cryto! 6 May 2013

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06:48:34 <monod> hi guys
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07:09:14 <lady-3jane> I always remember the phrase from V For Vendetta: People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be afraid of their people.
07:09:31 * lady-3jane sleeps
07:16:01 <monod> got to go now
07:16:11 <MK_FG> No one should be afraid!
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10:17:41 <MK_FG> twitchyliquid64, Did you look at cjdns, and
10:18:54 <MK_FG> There's an irc and sites there as it is, as with tor and i2p, but it seem to be much more efficient
10:19:07 <MK_FG> they ditch the "anonymity" aspect, mostly
10:19:59 * MK_FG is setting up a small test setup and planning to get a peering there to check out how it works
10:20:24 <MK_FG> twitchyliquid64, Just thought to hl you as you seem to be interested in these things ;)
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10:29:11 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: YES
10:30:24 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: Although I dislike cjdns
10:30:34 <MK_FG> Hm, why?
10:30:54 <MK_FG> It seem to be interesting idea to just map pubkeys to ipv6
10:31:47 <MK_FG> That kinda solves that zooko-triangle problem ;)
10:31:54 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: Just another DHT-based p2p network, with no emphasis on a conspicuous protocol
10:32:02 <twitchyliquid64> Fuck DHT
10:32:05 <twitchyliquid64> already been done
10:32:30 <twitchyliquid64> I want more mesh packet-switched temporal networks!
10:36:31 <MK_FG> Temporal, hmm?
10:39:43 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: as in, your interaction in a network is defined by your node links, which tend to represent something
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10:40:00 <twitchyliquid64> such as a web of trust, or a social graph
10:40:13 <MK_FG> Or FidoNet?
10:40:33 <MK_FG> Or the internet itself, actually?
10:40:42 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: yes
10:40:54 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: but everyone likes a meta-internet
10:41:20 <MK_FG> It has hierarchical structure
10:41:28 <MK_FG> With big ISP controlling everything
10:41:36 <MK_FG> And if they collude, everything's fucked
10:42:07 <MK_FG> Which seem to be bad, no?
10:42:29 <MK_FG> I think what people "like" is what's built on top of it - IP mesh
10:42:30 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: What if you make it so that everyone has links everywhere
10:42:40 <twitchyliquid64> so if an ISP is being retarded you go via another link
10:42:50 <twitchyliquid64> as was the original design of the internet during the cold war
10:42:55 <MK_FG> Which is not hierarchical, but rather p2p if you look at it as "one cloud where everyone can talk to everyone"
10:43:19 <MK_FG> Hmm, but that's exactly what DHT mesh is, no?
10:43:27 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: No.
10:43:53 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: A DHT mesh orders itself based on hash relatedness
10:44:09 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: A non-DHT mesh is ordered based on whatever links it has and thats it
10:44:47 <MK_FG> Each node in DHT mesh has some number of links
10:45:06 <MK_FG> And some-form-of-hash (e.g. closer-ip-address) is used to pick which one packet should use
10:45:09 <MK_FG> Right?
10:45:31 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: sort of
10:45:37 <twitchyliquid64> Its best to read up on hash tables
10:45:43 <twitchyliquid64> then look at DHTs
10:46:52 <MK_FG> I don't see much relation between consistent hashing and what's called "hash table" (data structure)
10:47:04 <MK_FG> As the former kinda forms a tree, while the latter is just an array of lists
10:47:18 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: do you know the advantage of a hash table over (say) a tree?
10:47:31 <MK_FG> Of couse, array has O(1) lookup
10:47:46 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: Array has O(n) lookup
10:47:50 <MK_FG> So unless you hit a pathological case where all elements you put into table hash to the same value...
10:47:54 <twitchyliquid64> A Hash table has O(1)
10:47:58 <MK_FG> No
10:48:05 <twitchyliquid64> array != hash table
10:48:15 <MK_FG> LINKED LIST has O(1) lookup
10:48:42 <MK_FG> To lookup element 100 in an ARRAY you get the start of ARRAY and add 100 to it's address
10:48:59 <twitchyliquid64> how would you lookup a string then?
10:49:25 <MK_FG> Easy - you do an array of (char*) pointers (as hash tables do)
10:49:39 <twitchyliquid64> I mean the key is a string sorry
10:49:42 <MK_FG> And then dereference the one you looked up and read the string at that address
10:50:00 <MK_FG> Key is just hashed to produce an offset in an array
10:50:13 <MK_FG> (with hash table)
10:50:13 <twitchyliquid64> Thats a hash table. Array != hash table
10:50:39 <MK_FG> Yep, array is just how it's implemented
10:50:50 <twitchyliquid64> right
10:50:54 <MK_FG> With consistent hashing in DHT you get arrays of arrays
10:51:06 <MK_FG> ...forming a tree of hash tables
10:51:14 <MK_FG> Each node has it's own branch
10:51:14 <twitchyliquid64> I thought you meant by array you had two arrays and you iterated through one till the key matched then read the data off the other
10:51:50 <MK_FG> Nah, it's too hard ;)
10:52:10 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: tbh, I use golangs builtin map functionality :P
10:52:22 <twitchyliquid64> I dont bother myself with any datastructures
10:52:53 <MK_FG> Yeah, there's no point to bother unless you hit some limitation with it
10:53:30 <MK_FG> But my point was that "Its best to read up on hash tables" "then look at DHTs" is kinda weird
10:53:38 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: mmmm. You still a C/C++ man?
10:53:47 <MK_FG> Because these seem to have little to do with each other ;)
10:54:05 <twitchyliquid64> seem pretty similar to me!
10:54:15 <MK_FG> I never thought of myself as C/C++ person ;)
10:54:27 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: oh?
10:54:51 <MK_FG> I only wrote minor stuff that's hard or impossible to do in higher-level langs in C
10:55:03 <MK_FG> Or if existing code was in it..
10:55:29 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: so what do you do nowadays?
10:55:30 <MK_FG> Given the context, you probably meant to ask whether I'd swith to Go...
10:55:44 <MK_FG> ...which I did - - here's my first thing in Go! ;)
10:55:58 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: ZOMG ZOMG ZOMG!!!
10:56:02 <twitchyliquid64> GO IS AMAZING!!! :DDDDD
10:56:10 <MK_FG> Hehe, yeah, it's cool
10:56:25 <MK_FG> But I mostly use python anyway, it's still easier
10:57:20 <MK_FG> Nowadays I wanted to setup cjdns and will probably get to it, but last major thing before that probably hacking Convergence back into working state
10:57:47 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: agreed, but I am willing to trade its easyness for the libraries, compilability and speed of Go
10:57:53 <twitchyliquid64> Convergence?
10:58:21 <MK_FG> Oh, you should see it! Especially if you're thinking about TLS
10:58:34 <MK_FG> See this video -
10:58:58 <MK_FG> To be fair, it has little to do with TLS itself, and more with it's PKI layer
10:59:34 <MK_FG> But a very easy and interesting solution nonetheless
11:00:01 <twitchyliquid64> 48 mins! :(
11:00:07 <twitchyliquid64> can you tldr me? ;D
11:00:09 <MK_FG> It's well worth it
11:00:36 <MK_FG> tl;dr - use network perspectives to lookup certs' fingerprints and cache these
11:01:03 <MK_FG> ...instead of using ca hierarchy to validate keys
11:01:32 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: so the 'network' caches the certs fingerprints?
11:02:06 <MK_FG> No, caches are local (well, disregarding that notaries actually have their own, but that's just an optimization)
11:02:17 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: notaries?
11:03:11 <MK_FG> Like, you go to, get cert "X", ask 10 random hosts on the net "which cert google has?" - they all say "X", you cache that "X" and never ask again until suddenly gives you cert "Y"
11:03:27 <MK_FG> That's the caching I meant there
11:03:45 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: whats to stop a MITM from intercepting all the comms to the 10 hosts?
11:03:46 <MK_FG> Plus there's a simple onion anonymizing layer
11:03:57 <MK_FG> You have all their certs cached as well!
11:04:06 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: ahh k
11:04:13 <twitchyliquid64> so its a big p2p network of certs
11:04:14 <MK_FG> So you won't accept mitm's "Z" key for any of them
11:04:19 <twitchyliquid64> being passed around like wqhores
11:04:21 <twitchyliquid64> *whores
11:04:38 <MK_FG> Yep, bitch-slapped into the tubes!
11:04:43 <twitchyliquid64> Indeedly
11:12:12 <MK_FG> Coming back to the derailed original topic "what's the diff between nodes-with-n-links and dht-thing like cjdns" - I see the latter being a subset of the former
11:12:36 <MK_FG> So how'd you rather pick which link to use for a packet?
11:13:02 <MK_FG> (dht does some simple "closer <hash> to packet destination")
11:13:21 <MK_FG> (in case of cjdns, <hash> is closeness of ip int, I think)
11:14:45 <MK_FG> But I'll be off for a hike, apologies
11:21:24 <twitchyliquid64> MK_FG: well, I feel like a DHT based system only uses the n-links hopping to resolve an address it does not know of
11:21:34 <twitchyliquid64> it it knew the direct path, it would go directly to the destination
11:21:41 <twitchyliquid64> so why have overlay links at all?
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11:50:49 <DrWhat> joepie91 im learning oop
11:51:18 <DrWhat>
11:51:20 <DrWhat> :3
11:53:31 <DrWhat>
11:54:26 <Matrix> pft
11:54:27 <Matrix> OOP
11:54:30 <Matrix> side effects
11:54:30 <Matrix> pft
11:55:03 <DrWhat> :/
11:55:15 <DrWhat> you code bro
11:55:56 <Matrix> Functional m8
12:03:35 <DrWhat>
12:03:44 <DrWhat>
12:03:45 <DrWhat> Yaya]
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12:14:09 <DrWhat>
12:14:14 <DrWhat> Im getting the hold of this :)
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12:17:06 <DrWhat>
12:17:07 <DrWhat> Yy
12:17:08 <DrWhat> yay
12:17:34 <DrWhat> i think
12:17:40 <DrWhat> I dont know
12:17:43 <DrWhat> lol
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14:16:54 <MK_FG> loggy, pointer?
14:16:54 <loggy>
14:17:18 <MK_FG> twitchyliquid64, If there is direct path (e.g. ip:port), then what does that system on top do?
14:17:21 <MK_FG> twitchyliquid64, If there isn't - distributing that routing-tree pieces among many nodes is just a way to scale the thing
14:17:24 <MK_FG> twitchyliquid64, And all-to-all-connected mesh seem to conradict all that you said above about graph or web-of-trust, I'm confused
14:17:46 <MK_FG> loggy, pointer?
14:17:46 <loggy>
14:18:00 <MK_FG> \o/
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15:04:14 <zxcvbnm> o herro
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15:24:16 <joepie91> morning
15:31:21 <IR601> 5:30 pm joe
15:31:28 <IR601> != morning
15:32:16 <zxcvbnm> 10:30 AM here
15:32:19 <zxcvbnm> == morning
15:32:47 <zxcvbnm> joepie adapated his greeting for my relevant time zone :P
15:39:44 <joepie91> lol
15:39:50 <joepie91> I always say morning
15:39:50 <lady-3jane> :>
15:39:55 <joepie91> it's always relevant to *someone*
15:39:59 <joepie91> and quite often to myself, as well
15:40:00 <lady-3jane> ^
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15:40:16 <joepie91> I find this to be a reasonable solution to the timezone greeting problem that does not provide a disadvantage to any discussion participant :)
15:40:23 <lady-3jane> just like we say: it's 5pm somewhere on earth, time to drink!
15:40:40 <joepie91> that... has slightly different reasoning behind it, however
15:40:40 <joepie91> :P
15:40:47 <lady-3jane> only slightly
15:40:49 <lady-3jane> :P
15:40:54 <Matrix> OKOKOK
15:40:59 <Matrix> Lets get this straight
15:41:05 <MK_FG>
15:41:11 <Matrix> Morning == Time from you wake up until you start getting tired
15:41:11 <lady-3jane> I'm eating my entire breakfast with coffee in 7 minutes
15:41:13 <lady-3jane> fuck today already
15:41:16 <Matrix> Night == WHen i am tired
15:41:49 <joepie91> MK_FG: ha!
15:41:52 <joepie91> I am not alone in my reasoning!
15:42:57 <lady-3jane> haha win
15:43:15 <joepie91> lady-3jane: I've noticed that I'm not chewing things enough
15:43:19 <joepie91> really need to change that habit
15:43:30 <joepie91> also, tomatoes have dropped in price here spectacularly
15:43:41 <joepie91> from 1.99 per kilo to 1.20 euro per kilo or so
15:43:48 * joepie91 likes tomatoes
15:43:50 <joepie91> now, brb shower
15:44:43 <lady-3jane> damn, good price
15:51:08 <zxcvbnm> maybe they're about to recall the tomatoes, and they wanna make some quick cash first
15:51:41 <zxcvbnm> Local time of any member of channel is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated
15:55:56 <MK_FG> Rotten tomatoes aren't that hard to spot
15:56:15 <MK_FG> I'd think that it's just spring and they now pull them out of greenhouses
15:56:45 <MK_FG> (presumably in larger numbers than in winter, due to better light conditions)
15:59:08 * zxcvbnm sounds "reasonable"
16:01:07 <MK_FG> That is ridiculous! You can't reason with tomatoes!!!
16:03:23 <joepie91> lady-3jane, zxcvbnm, MK_FG, the country of origin has changed to Netherlands
16:03:27 <joepie91> so I suspect that is primarily why
16:03:35 <joepie91> anyway
16:03:41 <joepie91> these tomatoes are nowhere near rotten, and are really really godo
16:03:43 <joepie91> good *
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16:03:50 <joepie91> (Lidl!)
16:04:08 <MK_FG> Is it where Neanthertals come from?
16:18:56 <joepie91> lol
16:18:57 <joepie91> also
16:19:05 <joepie91> it turns out that these crisps are gluten-free
16:19:13 <joepie91> I guess that's because it's a german supermarket...
16:19:39 <joepie91> (German companies test everything for gluten and make an effort to sell gluten-free stuff... Dutch companies either don't, or only at an outrageously high price)
16:20:00 <joepie91> (think 2,50 euro for a tiny gluten-free certified chocolate bar)
16:25:41 <zxcvbnm> oh shnikeys
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20:33:41 <DrWhat> Omg Life forms :D
20:33:50 <joepie91> well crap.
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20:34:12 <DrWhat> I must research these wierd squishy things
20:34:25 * DrWhat pokes joepie91 in the eye
20:34:40 <DrWhat> yep, they are squishy
20:35:43 <DrWhat> Whos murphy
20:35:53 <DrWhat> Is he ddosing the network
20:35:58 <DrWhat> or somthing
20:37:27 <ryan> ..
20:37:33 <ryan> Is that a serious question?
20:37:45 <DrWhat> if its dutch, i cant understand dutch yet
20:37:48 <joepie91> ohai ryan
20:37:53 <ryan> well hello
20:38:06 <ryan> I've bought
20:38:11 <ryan> soon 50 domains today
20:38:54 <DrWhat> Oh hey look loggy is still here :)
20:38:58 <DrWhat> .byc
20:39:01 <DrWhat> .btc
20:39:07 <DrWhat> .bitchcoin
20:39:14 <DrWhat> .bitcoin
20:39:15 <botpie91> 1 BTC = $113.50, 1 BTC = €86.61
20:39:36 <joepie91> great, the audio cable to my subwoofer broke
20:39:40 <joepie91> Murphy must really hate me today
20:39:42 * joepie91 grabs a spare cable
20:39:47 <joepie91> ryan: domains for what?
20:39:55 <DrWhat> LOL you have a subby :D
20:40:00 <DrWhat> i wana see it
20:40:09 <DrWhat> I wana see your pussy as well again please :D
20:40:19 <DrWhat> you should vlog your pussy
20:40:28 <DrWhat> I would watch
20:41:52 <joepie91> perhaps it's more than just the cable that broke..
20:42:20 <ElectRo`> luser broke
20:42:49 <joepie91> okay, so it would appear that the subwoofer output on my right speaker is broken
20:42:51 <ryan> joepie91: idk random domains
20:43:29 <joepie91> I suppose it's reasonable for something to break after over 15 years or so of intensive usage...
20:43:29 <DrWhat> Invalid command: LUSER
20:43:44 <DrWhat> joepie91 i thin kurby hates you
20:46:02 <joepie91> disregard that
20:46:07 <joepie91> it just started working again
20:46:13 <joepie91> after hitting it in a few strategic places
20:53:49 <DrWhat> you need to resolder some connections ;)
20:54:00 <DrWhat> its a common problem with Subbys
20:54:21 <DrWhat> i have the power switch fall off mine last year
20:54:31 <DrWhat> just fell off
20:54:35 <DrWhat> wasnt loose
20:55:53 <joepie91> I know, I'll open it up some time soon
20:55:57 <joepie91> probably isn't even soldered
20:56:14 <joepie91> knowing the insides of old Trust speakers, it's more likely to be either glued (still unlikely) or with a clip or screw system (likely)
20:56:26 <joepie91> and it's actually the right main speaker that has the issue, the sub itself is fine
20:56:26 <joepie91> :)
20:56:46 <joepie91> (older Trust speakers are a bit.... strange on the inside)
20:57:11 <joepie91> they also use copious amounts of a certain material that I don't know the name of
20:57:24 <joepie91> it's like inbetween a foam and something woven
20:57:33 <joepie91> the older speakers are clearly hand-assembled, also
21:08:47 <ryan> stonian tradition
21:17:04 <DrWhat> Joe
21:17:07 <DrWhat> pie
21:17:08 <DrWhat> 91
21:21:39 <ryan> o wot
21:21:42 <ryan> how did that end up here
21:27:41 <zxcvbnm> stonian tradition
21:29:55 <ryan> lol
21:30:07 <ryan> I guess I pressed esc before typing that
21:43:05 <lady-3jane> zxcvbnm:) best go deal with that info :D
21:48:37 <zxcvbnm> lady-3jane: Yeah, I haven't decided what to do yet. I assume since I found it, others have already found it.
21:48:57 <zxcvbnm> And the guy that runs the company seems like a scumbag. Soo, I'm kinda torn on my options
21:50:07 <lady-3jane> pull it out over tor and save it on a jumpbox for later?
21:51:02 <lady-3jane> I never sell or abuse data... but It's possible for it to be kept around :)
21:52:04 <zxcvbnm> This is true
22:02:12 <crytocc-c> joepie91
22:16:01 <DrWhat> joepie91
22:16:05 <DrWhat> is down
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23:30:18 <zxcvbnm> ciao fellas