Cryto! 5 April 2013
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05:02:16 <lady-3jane> I... I can't even speak right now. This is so cool.
05:02:38 * lady-3jane flaps wings and makes a whooshing noise
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05:03:21 <znc> sozzles VPS rebooted :/
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05:07:17 <lady-3jane> I'm liking this lack of solid hold on reality
05:07:23 <lady-3jane> this is really nice
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08:21:13 <monod> hello peep
08:21:33 <monod> unfortunately, inflation is not a good thing after all
08:22:24 <monod> because, the point of view of aaron's article could have been influenced by big economists
08:23:53 <monod> so, big economists, those who know their stuff very well, could be able to convince us to believe - I think - most of what they say, like 99% I think, especially because it's economics and it's a very hard field for those who haven't studied it
08:24:53 <monod> also, the situation in which nobody will have the money to pay others to work is nearly impossible to achieve, someone's got to have the money, believe me
08:25:42 <monod> and who if not rich people, such: rich citizens, people who have "important" jobs, e.g. CEOs.., then there are politician and bankers, the higher casta
08:26:38 <monod> this said, I did not study economics too, so... I'm not the bible..
08:26:52 <monod> but I've talked with elder people about aaron's article
08:27:08 <monod> and their responses could not been not taken in
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08:57:31 <monod> bitcoins are not decentralized
08:57:50 <monod> if noone explains to me how can I get bitcoins, not from people
08:58:16 <monod> because if it was just a matter of exchange between people, the bitcoins would never raise in quantity
08:58:25 <monod> there would always be the same quantity over time
08:58:32 <monod> yet, this is not true.
08:58:42 <monod> and there are "sellers" of bitcoins
08:58:54 <monod> which are just CENTRALIZED power!
08:59:04 <monod> am I wonrg?
08:59:07 <monod> wrong*
08:59:08 <MK_FG> Read up on how the whole system works
08:59:18 <MK_FG> It's a simple log of transactions
08:59:24 <monod> hmm
08:59:36 <monod> no!
08:59:50 <monod> how do I start getting bitcoins?
08:59:56 <MK_FG> Each block there is signed with a specific hash (having zero-bytes at the start)
09:00:02 <monod> I have to give my money to Mt.Gox and the like!
09:00:34 <monod> may be me not understanding yet though
09:00:35 <MK_FG> And this block, by protocol convention, includes "reward" - keys which should have new bitcoins
09:01:21 <MK_FG> So, miners get these for calculating hashes of blocks, that's why amount of bitcoins rises over time
09:01:34 <MK_FG> It's not "distributed" from some central issuer
09:02:00 <MK_FG> If you have some ultra-powerful hardware, you can just mine these yourself and present valid hashes before others can claim them
09:02:26 <monod> 1) "Each block there" - you mean inside every transation?
09:02:27 <MK_FG> But that said, of course, a lot of bitcoins are mined already
09:02:49 <MK_FG> So you can also buy these from other miners or whoever they transferred these to
09:02:55 <MK_FG> (like Mt.Gox)
09:03:11 <MK_FG> No, transactions are aggregated into blocks
09:03:40 <MK_FG> I don't recall how many, but I think these blocks contain few minutes of transactions in general
09:03:55 <MK_FG> (and it's not some static number, iirc)
09:04:33 <monod> ok, so a certain amount of transactions are (iirc = If I Recall Correctly?) grouped inside blocks
09:04:44 <MK_FG> Yep
09:05:03 <monod> why are blocks signed?
09:05:03 <MK_FG> And the new block is added to block chain, containing hash of the parent block in it
09:05:10 <monod> and what "signed" means/is?
09:05:14 <monod> crypto?
09:05:25 <monod> oh ok, the block chain
09:05:31 <monod> I read it on the newbie's guide
09:05:43 <monod> the 5 GB blockchain :D
09:05:44 <MK_FG> "signed" is probably a bad word here, as it usually implies asymmetric crypto
09:06:40 <monod> so, whenever there are blocks of transactions, there will come reward, which bring more bitcoins in
09:06:50 <MK_FG> But such "signature" is a sha256 hash of the block data (to-from of all the transactions, parent hash, timestamp, random nonce) with some zeros at the beginning
09:07:30 <MK_FG> Yes, reward is a protocol convention
09:07:49 <MK_FG> It holds as long as most miners recognize and accept it
09:08:38 <monod> and this reward I suspect it goes into wallets of the fauthors of the transactions?
09:08:48 <MK_FG> If some dishonest miner adds insane reward or weird bugs to the hashed block, it's assumed that most of the network will just reject it as bogus
09:09:19 <MK_FG> And as soon as some honest one calculates correct block, they will accept it and start further calculations from it's hash
09:09:45 <MK_FG> Well, it's just a key, whoever miner puts there ;)
09:09:54 <MK_FG> Probably "himself"
09:10:05 <MK_FG> Though "himself" here usually means "mining pool"
09:10:10 <monod> I'm not understanding the practical thing..
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09:10:41 <MK_FG> There
09:10:42 <monod> it all begins when bitcoins are exchanged between wallets, right? so that transactions and blocks can be formed
09:10:59 <monod> but I didn't understand where the hash is
09:11:10 <monod> or where to get it, or from what calculate it
09:11:16 <MK_FG> There's gotta be tons of docs and probably videos on the internet, explaining how it works much better (and more accurate) than me ;)
09:11:27 <monod> alright
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09:12:18 <MK_FG> I don't really remember which ones I've used to get my info by now, but I didn't read the actual paper
09:13:06 <monod> so, the point was: "it's impossible that the only way to get bitcoins is to buy them from those who already have them, because otherwise there wouldn't be enough bitcoins for everyone". The answer is that bitcoins can be "generated" - or better, *mined* - with that procedure I'm going to read more about
09:13:11 <MK_FG> So I might as well be wrong, having such second-hand (though probably quite cross-referenced) data ;)
09:13:52 <monod> since this interest me, I'll try to get more infromations, hoping being able to report
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09:13:56 <MK_FG> Yes, but by convention, they also are generated up to a certain limit
09:14:08 <monod> per day you mean, right?
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09:14:19 <MK_FG> Size of "reward" is written into the protocol and clients
09:14:20 <monod> god thanks you, RuDy
09:14:32 <MK_FG> And it halves after every N blocks, I think
09:14:39 <monod> oh
09:14:50 <MK_FG> Getting asymptotically closer to 21mil bitcoins
09:15:08 <MK_FG> (not single reward, but the whole amount in circulation)
09:15:15 <monod> that's why it was written in the article!
09:15:25 <monod> (the one joepie posted)
09:15:37 <MK_FG> But after reward goes to almost-zero, it's not the end of mining
09:15:59 <MK_FG> Because there can also be fees for miners
09:16:10 <monod> well, also because you can still exchange bitcoins for dollars?
09:16:20 <monod> so bitcoins number would eventually decrease a lil bit=
09:16:21 <monod> ?
09:16:44 <MK_FG> Like, people can embed some small "miner fee" in transactions, so miners will jump to hash them, to claim that reward
09:17:08 <monod> O_O
09:17:10 <MK_FG> And as it's you who sets this fee, not some guy in a suit on top, it's a free market for mining-force
09:17:53 <MK_FG> Number of coins in circulation will definitely decrease as people might loose thier keys
09:17:58 <monod> miner "fee" stands for? a reward or a tax for who calculate that hash?
09:18:07 <MK_FG> hdd fail, ssd fail even moreso ;)
09:18:18 <monod> oh ok, that's one way xD
09:18:24 <monod> (nice)
09:18:39 <MK_FG> Bounty you set for miner who validates your transaction, basically
09:18:51 <MK_FG> Set it higher and it'll be faster ;)
09:19:16 <monod> validate?? and also: the bounty is not taken from someone's wallet, yet generated?
09:19:26 <monod> so that the amoaunt will asymptotically reach 21 mil?
09:19:38 <monod> so, miners validate transactions?
09:19:40 <MK_FG> No, it's given by you, from your wallet
09:19:51 <monod> ok, seems more than legit
09:19:58 <monod> you want it faster, you have to pay
09:20:06 <MK_FG> You say "hey, I want to transfer amount N from X to Y and give N*0.05 to Z"
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09:20:24 <MK_FG> "please someone hash it into blockchain for N*0.05!" ;)
09:20:36 <monod> wow
09:20:39 <MK_FG> And anyone willing can do it
09:20:56 <monod> so, altering the main log may result in.... altering everyone's wallet?!? :D
09:21:20 <MK_FG> I dunno if amount will really rise up till 21mil or maybe if at, say, 20mil, it'll start falling due to people loosing keys
09:21:35 <monod> that's just a case
09:21:43 <monod> we can't say if it will happen
09:21:50 <monod> it could also happen at 19mil as well
09:21:53 <monod> so..
09:22:12 <monod> or am I misunderstanding what "keys" are here?
09:22:27 <monod> (I meant passwords for accessing owned wallets, is it right?)
09:22:34 <MK_FG> No, iirc it's some EC keys
09:22:49 <monod> EC = ?
09:23:03 <MK_FG> Not "password", but rather public asymmetric crypto keys
09:23:11 <MK_FG> EC = Eliptic-Curve Crypto
09:23:17 <monod> oh damn
09:23:21 <monod> the one after RSA
09:23:25 <monod> iirc
09:23:26 <monod> :D
09:23:36 <monod> so, damn!
09:23:43 <MK_FG> Yeah, it's same thing from user's point of view
09:23:48 <monod> ok
09:23:54 <MK_FG> (works same as RSA, basically)
09:24:14 <monod> (you seem to enjoy cryptography :))
09:24:41 <MK_FG> Huh? I don't even remember which algo is used in BTC!
09:24:56 <MK_FG> (I *think* it's *some kind of* EC)
09:25:07 <MK_FG> So don't enjoy enough, apparently!
09:25:42 <monod> I mean, you seem to have had something to do with cryptography, I don't know what... you could have studied it, for example
09:26:30 <MK_FG> "altering the main log may result in.... altering everyone's wallet" <-- true, but 1) no one should accept blocks which are based on some old block-hash
09:26:46 <MK_FG> 2) no one should accept blocks with invalid EC signatures on transactions
09:27:04 <MK_FG> (i.e. you're trying to use someone else's keys)
09:27:23 <MK_FG> Hence not easy to forge the thing
09:27:34 <monod> oh my... but you said "no one *shouls*", do you mean that someone still *could*?
09:27:43 <monod> should*
09:27:49 <MK_FG> Yes, it's all open protocol
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09:28:09 <MK_FG> If 51% of people will start accept bogus invalid blocks, whole thing will collapse
09:28:18 <MK_FG> Or rather not collapse...
09:28:21 <MK_FG> ...but "fork"
09:28:27 <monod> lol
09:28:34 <monod> go put in on github, folks xDD
09:28:38 <monod> kidding
09:28:39 <monod> anyway, wow
09:28:49 <MK_FG> There will be half of the network that will accept "valid" block, and half with "invalid" one
09:28:53 <monod> and also, oh my god!
09:29:15 <monod> yes, the invalid one could be mining more bitcoins thanks to cheating and then they could try reattach?
09:29:16 <MK_FG> So these two parts will have permanently different transaction histories
09:29:22 <monod> oh okay
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09:29:27 <monod> already asnwered :)
09:29:29 <monod> answered*
09:29:32 <monod> right?
09:30:01 <MK_FG> No, they'll never reattach, as "valid" part of the network should never accept their "invalid" blockchain
09:30:13 <monod> ooooh
09:30:14 <monod> that's very nice!
09:30:22 <monod> it's self protection activated!
09:30:24 <monod> almost
09:30:57 <monod> "almost", because people "may have a price"
09:31:15 <monod> and when not just the 51% will fork with invalid blocks, but, e.g., the 70%
09:31:21 <monod> (utopian percentage)
09:31:46 <monod> they could convince others to accept the "corrupted"/forked blockchain, for a reward
09:32:16 <MK_FG> Yeah, it's kinda democracy there ;)
09:32:20 <monod> crazy scenario xD
09:32:30 <monod> oh, in a sense...
09:32:31 <monod> it is!
09:32:42 <MK_FG> Like, if everyone will vote to "change protocol to be X", sure, it'll be X for this "everyone" ;)
09:33:04 <monod> of course
09:33:14 <MK_FG> It might happen if there'll be agreement on some critical change, I think
09:33:26 <monod> yes, for exmaple
09:33:31 <monod> example*
09:33:49 <MK_FG> Like, if sha256 will be almost-broken, I guess some new protocol will emerge, starting from some point in old blockchain, but using a new hash algo from there on
09:34:16 <MK_FG> Or rather not "will emerge", but "may emerge"
09:34:32 <MK_FG> And everyone may agree to accept it
09:34:46 <MK_FG> Dunno how it'll work out, we'll see
09:34:51 <MK_FG> (probably)
09:34:54 <monod> everyone here are the programmers :)
09:35:05 <monod> yeah, same here: dunno, we'll see
09:35:16 <monod> oops, I meant
09:35:36 <monod> "And everyone may agree to accept it" <--- here, "everyone" are mostly programmers
09:35:51 <monod> no, I'm probably wrong
09:36:00 <MK_FG> And users who choose to update their clients
09:36:15 <MK_FG> (to new versions that do something differently)
09:36:20 <monod> so yes, I'm right! :D
09:36:30 <monod> another fork-opportunity there
09:36:44 <monod> quite one-way though
09:37:05 <monod> who would ever like to have old DES for their safety instead of SHA1? xD
09:37:32 <MK_FG> These are quite different things, btw
09:37:44 <MK_FG> DES is symmetric cipher and sha1 is hash function
09:38:03 <MK_FG> But des is used in crypt(3) with iirc salt as a key
09:38:06 <monod> yeah I know, I'm poor at examples in cryptography filed
09:38:08 <monod> field*
09:38:19 <MK_FG> So sometimes used as a kinda-hash, I guess
09:38:28 <monod> boh
09:38:37 <MK_FG> (bcrypt does the same with blowfish cipher, I think)
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09:39:01 <MK_FG> Anyway, I'm off to take a nap
09:39:06 <monod> alright
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09:39:09 <monod> good nap
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09:48:29 <monod> "The immediate impetus for the current spike in bitcoin prices, of course, is the events in Cyprus."
09:56:42 <monod> oh, now I see that the transaction reward could be viewed as the "price" of generating that transaction, that, unlikely the standardised actual bank system, has nothing to do with geographical positions or other "plans"
09:57:01 <monod> they're just a contract between miners and normal users
09:57:33 <monod> god, cloud networks may have the biggest role and advantage in being miners
09:57:38 <monod> or not?..
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10:30:16 <dave> holy crap, i've just discovered tmux
10:35:32 <monod> termianl multiplexer???
10:35:35 <monod> terminal
10:35:35 <monod> *+
10:38:23 <dave> Yeah
10:38:33 <dave> :D
10:40:20 <monod> :D
10:40:25 <monod> the most famous one is Screen
10:40:32 <monod> pure awesomeness
10:41:27 <dave> ah yes
10:41:39 <dave> before i get too heavily involved with tmux
10:42:06 <monod> they're more than quite useful for sysadmins who do many terminal-based things
10:42:07 <dave> is there a way to get vim keybindings for screen?
10:42:18 <monod> hmmm
10:42:55 <monod> first thing that come to my mind is that I really don't know, but since its source is available, someone with the right competence may be able to do/add that
10:44:03 <monod> dave: You may disagree with some of the default bindings (I know I do). The bind command allows you to redefine them to suit your preferences." http://web.mit.edu/gnu/doc/html/screen_13.html
10:44:06 <monod> there we go!
10:44:29 <dave> Brill
10:44:32 <dave> None of this emacs ;o
10:44:46 <monod> what do you mean?
10:45:57 <dave> Currently enduring emacs-style keybindings in tmux :P
10:46:59 <monod> oh now I see
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11:10:02 <monod> I'm starting to think that the real power of capitalism was that there weren't real other alternatives
11:10:29 <monod> let's say that from today on, everyone is going to be a "free market himself"
11:10:42 <monod> everyone with his own rules, I mean
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11:11:13 <monod> there could come out people with ideas on how to get more money over others
11:11:17 <monod> ending in capitalism, again
11:11:41 <monod> the real reason why capitalism gained his role, is because everyone went for that
11:11:53 <monod> there would be a need for a new idea
11:12:14 <monod> in order to stop capitalism
11:12:30 <monod> just raw thoughts though..
11:19:24 <MK_FG> monod, Renting clouds like ec2 for mining is unprofitable - you pay more than you get in btc, otherwise amazon would've probably used this itself ;)
11:19:41 <monod> :D
11:20:12 <monod> I was also thinking: facebook's likes, comments, posts.. are commodity as well
11:20:14 <monod> am I right?
11:20:58 <MK_FG> There are "social media handling" jobs on the market, yeah
11:21:38 <monod> oh ok
11:21:46 <monod> that's a more accurate name
11:21:48 <monod> I think
11:21:52 <monod> for what I was thinking
11:22:00 <monod> that is: facebook earns from likes and posts
11:22:25 <monod> yet not because of it alone, but because "social media handling" jobs exist
11:22:32 <monod> if I got you right
11:22:59 <monod> also, are they a currency too when people say "please, I'm joining a competition, wins who gets more likes than others"?
11:23:04 <monod> lunch timeeeee
11:23:07 <monod> *afk*
11:23:17 <MK_FG> Dunno, I think "social media handling" is a net loss for it, because not many people are really interested in going to fb for that
11:23:50 <MK_FG> If there were only pr people (like that) there, no one would go see facebook's ads
11:25:02 <MK_FG> I think "currency" usually refers to something you can easily convert to other resources, which likes don't seem to be
11:40:34 <joepie91> actually, currency has various distinct properties
11:40:43 <joepie91> divisibility, transferability, and something else I forgot
11:40:55 <joepie91> I think there were like 3 properties in total
11:44:12 <dave> In your opinion, do those properties make it better than bartering?
11:45:38 <joepie91> dave: yes - in fact, that's what currency was effectively invented for
11:45:45 <joepie91> to provide those properties :)
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11:59:58 <twitchyliquid64> hai all
12:00:14 <twitchyliquid64> joepie91: does your browser game engine do 3d yet?
12:02:29 <joepie91> twitchyliquid64: it does not, but there's three.js for that
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12:04:35 * twitchyliquid64 googles
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12:39:57 <monod> hello twitchy!
12:57:17 <joepie91> http://www.desura.com/news/full-jedi-academy-and-jedi-outcast-source-code-released
12:57:38 <joepie91> I'll be brief as this is huge news but everyone around the community should know this. Raven has just released the full source code to Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast including SP, MP, Engine, Tools, everything.
12:57:46 <joepie91> source for two Star Wars games released!
13:03:34 <HiveResearch> O-o
13:03:39 <HiveResearch> O_o
13:04:05 <MK_FG> Hm, tribute to LucasArts' recent demise ;(
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21:52:38 <cras_holland> ready to nuke FB
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22:01:50 <joepie91> my god
22:01:54 <joepie91> not another of those fucking idiots
22:02:00 <joepie91> READ THE GODDAMN TOPIC ALREADY FOR FUCKS SAKE
22:02:09 <joepie91> it's not that goddamn hard
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22:10:26 <shadowdemonweb> Herro
22:10:50 <shadowdemonweb> I can't seem to connect to irc outside of the web client
22:11:08 <shadowdemonweb> Unable to connect: Connection timed out.
22:11:36 <MK_FG> On all IPs?
22:13:03 <joepie91> ohai
22:13:04 <joepie91> shadowdemonweb: that's odd
22:13:20 <joepie91> have you tried connecting to haless.cryto.net ?
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22:16:22 <ShadowDemon> hello world
22:16:25 <ShadowDemon> I figured it out :D
22:17:20 <shadowdemonweb> yeah, haless worked
22:19:00 <zest> what is haless ?
22:19:57 <MK_FG> One of the IPs of irc.cryto.net?
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22:24:06 <joepie91> one of the leafs *
22:26:26 * zxcvbnm always uses haless
22:26:54 <joepie91> :P
22:26:59 <joepie91> also
22:27:00 <joepie91> major wtf:
22:27:05 <joepie91> just did a postal code check of a dutch ISP
22:27:07 <zest> seems like the other leafs works too
22:27:19 <joepie91> for fiber internet on the address I'm going to move to
22:27:32 <joepie91> according to them, "the Reggefiber network is not available on this address yet"
22:27:50 <joepie91> except... there's a fiber connection over the Reggefiber network on that address *right now*
22:27:52 <joepie91> via a different ISP
22:27:59 <joepie91> so clearly the postal code check is lying lol
22:28:16 <joepie91> the current connection is KPN, which is horrible
22:28:22 <joepie91> and I want to switch to XS4ALL...
22:28:28 <joepie91> 100mbit fiber + native ipv6 is kind of awesome :3
22:29:17 <zest> ipv6 a bit sucks
22:29:43 <MK_FG> Is it?
22:29:57 <joepie91> MK_FG: ?
22:30:04 <zest> raw and crude )
22:30:20 <MK_FG> Just wondered why ipv6 sucks in this particular case ;)
22:30:33 <joepie91> oh, I thought you were refering to what I said lol
22:30:56 <joepie91> anyway
22:30:59 <joepie91> according to the site
22:31:00 <MK_FG> Nah, I fully agree with 100mbit awesomeness ;)
22:31:06 <joepie91> this ftth subscription will be about 55 euro a month
22:31:12 <joepie91> which is a whole lot cheaper than the 70 or 80 it used to be
22:31:24 <zest> yeah that part is cool ... ))
22:32:15 <MK_FG> Hm, even 55 is 3 times more expensive than what I pay here for 40mbit
22:32:27 <MK_FG> But I guess all prices are higher in EU
22:33:57 <MK_FG> Do you get DPI and filtering for that 55 EUR as well? ;)
22:34:22 <MK_FG> Today our authorities blocked ru.wikipedia.org
22:34:31 <MK_FG> Pure awesomeness on their part
22:35:23 <zest> where it is ?
22:35:34 <MK_FG> Soviet Russia
22:35:44 <MK_FG> Where are you from, btw
22:35:48 <joepie91> <MK_FG>Do you get DPI and filtering for that 55 EUR as well? ;)
22:35:49 <joepie91> yes
22:35:52 <joepie91> <MK_FG>Hm, even 55 is 3 times more expensive than what I pay here for 40mbit
22:35:56 <zest> I know, all Russia you mean ?
22:35:57 <joepie91> yes, but this is 100/100 :)
22:36:57 <MK_FG> zest, Not all ISPs, I think
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22:37:26 <zest> * they do this
22:38:35 <MK_FG> Hm, heh, nope, apprently it's in all-isp blacklist, not a fluke - http://rublacklist.net/5097/
22:39:15 <MK_FG> Got there for some drug-related article, apparently blocked by some crazy person our censors employ ;)
22:40:46 <zest> lol )))
22:41:55 <zest> but in Netherlands it possible to buy freely where the freedom of thoughts ?))
22:43:56 <MK_FG> Isn't weed also restricted in Netherlands to a specific (presumably gov-licensed) establishments?
22:58:13 <ShadowDemon> hehe
22:58:37 <ShadowDemon> joepie91, you upgrade my floppy disk to a hard drive