Cryto! 3 April 2013
00:21:27 <MK_FG> Windows 9 will be teh best os evar!
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02:58:18 <Ari> I MADE A DOLLAR OF THE INTERNET
02:58:19 <Ari> I DID IT
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03:35:42 <joepie91> http://blog.ryankearney.com/2013/01/comcast-caught-intercepting-and-altering-your-web-traffic/
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13:09:13 <monod> guysù
13:09:16 <monod> guys*
13:09:28 <monod> I think most of you will *love* this greasemonkey script
13:09:35 <monod> http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/121261
13:09:40 <monod> it's called "Straight Google"
13:10:22 <monod> it cuts google's links to just look like the final web page you was looking for
13:10:54 <monod> rming all the other variables that there in the URL
13:11:11 <monod> so it's better for privacy, anti-tracking
13:11:36 <monod> and also it prevents google from knowing what you have decided to watch from the results!
13:40:27 <joepie91> monod: thanks
13:40:43 <monod> do you like it??
13:41:02 <monod> so I'm not the only one!
13:42:39 <joepie91> I do, yes
13:48:48 <monod> hooray!
13:48:49 <monod> :D
13:51:40 <ryan> Anti tracking will make google less effective though
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13:52:39 <monod> of course
14:13:48 <monod> "PCSX2 is an open-source PlayStation 2 (PS2) emulator for the Microsoft Windows, Linux and OS X operating systems. In its latest stable release, many PS2 games are playable" <-- and for now you're like "yeaah!", until you follow the article and read --> "and several games have full functionality." :D
14:23:22 <monod> Straight Google does not always work though
14:23:56 <monod> for example, searching for a famous person, like an actor, you will recently see a "foreword" of who is he with a bunch of images
14:24:02 <monod> or some "News" titled link
14:24:35 <monod> well, these 3 examples are not working, since they always show the google's stuff in the url
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14:38:39 <monod> zxcvbnm, have you tried using IDA Pro free version for better reading that code you had the last time?
14:38:51 <zxcvbnm> Nope, I haven't
14:38:53 <monod> I say this because I saw it has a nice flow-chart view mode
14:38:54 <zxcvbnm> what is IDA Pro
14:39:12 <zxcvbnm> Ohh
14:51:38 <ryan> IDA is nice
14:54:49 <zxcvbnm> monod: I'm going to check that out.
14:55:10 <zxcvbnm> ty for advice. My assembly debugging experience is < 0
14:55:27 <monod> and so it's mine :)
14:56:53 <zxcvbnm> So my next step is to do some memory address modifications to this application
14:58:55 <monod> anyway, are you reading the PMs?
15:01:28 <monod> demostrating the weakness of an algorithm implemented I guess
15:01:32 <monod> ops
15:03:07 <ryan> o ok
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15:09:48 <joepie91> monod: no
15:10:07 <joepie91> IRC is a multi-threaded medium so to say
15:10:11 <joepie91> multiple conversations can be going on at once
15:10:22 <joepie91> the intention of [off] isn't really to keep entire conversations out of the log
15:10:23 <joepie91> just single lines
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15:10:44 <joepie91> that contain information that shouldn't be Googleable
15:11:01 <monod> alright
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15:11:36 * zxcvbnm wonders have many words have been formed with "Google"
15:11:42 <zxcvbnm> how many*
15:11:46 <joepie91> Googleability
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15:11:58 <zxcvbnm> Google noun, verb
15:12:09 <zxcvbnm> Googlers ?
15:12:14 <zxcvbnm> people who google?
15:12:32 <joepie91> Googleish
15:13:00 <monod> ungoogle
15:13:02 <monod> nope.
15:13:20 <joepie91> UNGOOGLE YOUR LIFE!
15:13:26 <zxcvbnm> Impossible
15:13:35 <zxcvbnm> Unless you become.. someone else
15:13:42 <monod> xD
15:13:48 <monod> oh, btw zxcvbnm !
15:13:50 <monod> try this:
15:14:13 <monod> Straght Google (for Greasemonkey): http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/121261
15:21:10 <zxcvbnm> Oh
15:21:14 <zxcvbnm> Niice.
15:21:18 <monod> :D
15:21:37 <monod> yet I have already found three non-working url examples
15:22:21 <zxcvbnm> yeah, the concept is nice
15:22:27 <monod> really
16:20:21 <ryan> joepie91: got any idea on who's trying to jew with www.indiegogo.com/projects/your-anon-news
16:20:30 <ryan> well indiegogo is down atm but you get the idea
16:23:08 <joepie91> ryan: mm, what is going on with it? I can reach it just fine
16:23:12 <joepie91> or well
16:23:20 <joepie91> as 'fine' as anything is going to load on this terrible connection
16:24:00 <ryan> not loading for me but anyways
16:24:05 <ryan> looks like someone raised 6k out of it
16:24:10 <ryan> jackal?
16:24:20 <joepie91> well, it's an 'official' campaign anyway
16:24:24 <joepie91> so yes, I'd imagine it's Jackal
16:24:51 <joepie91> I'm kind of curious what they're planning to do with it
16:25:10 <ryan> buy drugs?
16:25:26 * joepie91 frowns
16:25:26 <joepie91> For server costs alone we are looking at $3600 in set up fees.
16:25:30 <joepie91> $3600?
16:25:58 <ryan> they're going to go
16:26:02 <ryan> bankrupt pretty soon
16:26:03 <ryan> if that's the truth
16:26:19 <ryan> they won't be able to crowdfund what it takes for them to say online
16:26:30 <joepie91> I'm quite curious where those $3600 would go
16:26:36 <joepie91> pretty sure not even Prolexic charges that
16:26:41 <joepie91> as initial cost
16:26:43 <ryan> prolexic charges 7k per month
16:26:44 <monod> typewith.me and www.voxanon.org are down!
16:26:49 <joepie91> yes, but initial cost
16:26:51 <joepie91> as in, setup cost
16:26:52 <ryan> well yea
16:26:56 <ryan> sounds like bullshit
16:27:06 <joepie91> ryan: that, or someone trying to rip them off
16:27:09 <joepie91> seen that a few times before as well
16:27:10 <ryan> verisign ddos protection is 50k per year iirc
16:27:16 <joepie91> some kid reselling OVH servers or whatever
16:27:25 <ryan> well not really a rip off if the host knows what issues they'll experience for hosting that stuff
16:27:28 <joepie91> and telling some guy that wanted to set up an anon site
16:27:32 <joepie91> that he needed a dedicated server
16:27:36 <joepie91> then overcharging by like 800%
16:27:42 <ryan> but yeah
16:27:43 <ryan> 3.6k setup
16:27:50 <ryan> hardly anyone charges for setup anymore
16:27:51 <joepie91> 3.6k really does sound unrealistic
16:27:56 <ryan> yeah
16:27:58 <joepie91> even if it includes first month
16:28:07 <ryan> unless they are planning to buy their own servers they colo
16:28:14 <ryan> hell, get their own fiber
16:28:16 <joepie91> that's possible, but seems unwise
16:28:23 <ryan> they're not the smartest
16:28:27 <joepie91> owned servers cost money every time you want to move them
16:28:27 <ryan> but I doubt they'd go there
16:28:32 <joepie91> so if you get kicked out a DC, that'll cost you dearly
16:29:04 <joepie91> inb4 they want to host with cb3rob
16:29:10 <joepie91> actually, not even cb3rob charges that
16:29:34 <ryan> I guess I'll tweet at jackal and ask him
16:30:24 <ryan> https://twitter.com/QXL/status/319487027450089472
16:30:26 <ryan> o well
16:30:57 <joepie91> also, ryan, did you see this: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/04/digitalocean/?cid=co6834744
16:31:12 <ryan> nope
16:31:13 <ryan> thanks
16:31:18 <ryan> lol
16:31:22 <ryan> how can you fuck that up
16:32:06 <ryan> I can't really think of anything
16:33:11 <ryan> and their site doesn't say if they use xen or ovz..
16:33:23 <ryan> I'll guess ovz because that's only platform where such a fuckup would be realistic
16:33:30 <joepie91> I think it's Xen actually
16:33:44 <joepie91> anyway, it probably has to do with their SSD setup
16:33:51 <ryan> unless you are mounting storage in some really weird way then that's kind of difficult to accomplish
16:33:54 <joepie91> oh
16:33:55 <joepie91> KVM
16:34:04 <joepie91> they used to do Xen/KVM
16:34:08 <joepie91> but afaik they dropped Xen at some point
16:39:27 <ryan> well
16:39:42 <ryan> I don't really see how you can do that unless you are doping something very strange
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17:23:21 <joepie91> http://statspotting.com/bitcoins-rise-what-if-it-is-not-a-bubble/
17:23:40 <joepie91> ryan: judging from the mixed reviews about DigitalOcean, they're doing quite a few very strange things :P
17:24:22 <ryan> why do people seem surprised about bitcoin rise?
17:24:35 <ryan> the currency was designed to experience major deflation
17:24:56 <ryan> (which is a horrible fucking idea and the reason why it's not really a realistic option compared to real money)
17:28:59 <joepie91> actually,
17:29:14 <joepie91> 1. it wasn't designed to either inflate or deflate, but the latter is more likely due to the way new things are adopted
17:29:37 <joepie91> 2. bitcoin *is* real money, even more than dollars and such are (because the units are individually identifiable at all times)
17:30:04 <joepie91> 3. inflationary-by-design currency is not the only realistic option; in fact, it is guaranteed to blow up at some point
17:30:20 <joepie91> inflationary-by-design currency is based on endless (exponential) growth
17:30:26 <joepie91> which is not possible with a finite amount of resources
17:31:33 <joepie91> also, wtf @ the 'free bitcoins' thing
17:31:38 <joepie91> I'm quite curious what the catch is
17:31:47 <joepie91> why are they giving away free BTC with an affiliate scheme
17:32:27 <joepie91> ah, they have ads now?
17:36:19 <ryan> 1. The amount of currency was designed to go down over time
17:36:37 <ryan> 2. Bitcoin is just like fiat currencies, it just lacks government backing
17:36:53 <ryan> 3. stable by design currency is rather realistic
17:37:59 <joepie91> <ryan>1. The amount of currency was designed to go down over time
17:38:02 <joepie91> it wasn't
17:38:15 <ryan> well, kind of
17:38:26 <joepie91> Bitcoin is *designed* to slowly make the generation rate approach zero
17:38:33 <ryan> the loss of coins is inevitable
17:38:37 <joepie91> things like losing coins can be avoided through deterministic wallets, for example
17:38:40 <joepie91> ("brain wallets")
17:38:47 <joepie91> as the Electrum client already does
17:38:55 <joepie91> <ryan>2. Bitcoin is just like fiat currencies, it just lacks government backing
17:39:03 <joepie91> Bitcoin is similar in that there is no physical item backing it up, correct
17:39:09 <joepie91> but aside from that, there are many many differenxces
17:39:20 <joepie91> and the question is how valuable a "physical item backing" is
17:39:26 <joepie91> because that, in itself, has a 'belief value'
17:39:35 <joepie91> <ryan>3. stable by design currency is rather realistic
17:39:39 <joepie91> inflationary currency is not stable.
17:40:03 <ryan> being backed by US government versus being backed by mtgox is a pretty large difference
17:40:08 <ryan> freicoin is stable
17:40:54 <ryan> of course it'll eventually become deflationary
17:40:55 <ryan> but much later than bitcoins
17:41:50 <joepie91> unrelated, http://www.destructoid.com/disney-shuts-down-lucasarts-250695.phtml
17:42:03 <ryan> that's an interesting decision
17:42:04 <joepie91> ryan: actually, bitcoin isn't "backed by mt gox"
17:42:11 <ryan> o
17:42:12 <ryan> game studio
17:42:18 <joepie91> I am 100% certain that mt gox can disappear overnight, and bitcoin will bounce back in under a day
17:42:31 <joepie91> the only reason people use mt gox is because they have a lot of liquidity
17:42:36 <joepie91> which is a self-fulfilling situation
17:42:36 <ryan> if mtgox dies, the trust on bitcoin will be affected greatly
17:42:50 <joepie91> it's the social network issue, really, where people don't switch social networks because all their friends are on the old one
17:42:52 <joepie91> I doubt it
17:42:58 <joepie91> look at the mt gox hack, for example
17:43:04 <joepie91> the real impact was almost negligible
17:43:22 <joepie91> mt gox really only has importance in numbers, in terms of liquidity
17:43:40 <joepie91> if mt gox disappears, it takes one trip to the bitcoin wiki to find other exchanges
17:43:41 <ryan> if the biggest player in bitcoins suddenly disappears
17:43:44 <joepie91> as in, really disappears
17:43:51 <ryan> it'll scare away people with money
17:44:04 <joepie91> I doubt it
17:44:13 <joepie91> those that are left, are those that have likely already seen an exchange collapse
17:44:17 <joepie91> one with more advanced trading options
17:44:25 <joepie91> and decided to continue with it anyway
17:44:32 <joepie91> because, being realistic, mt gox really isn't that advanced
17:44:38 <ryan> if apple suddenly disappeared, nasdaq wouldn't be messed up?
17:44:49 <joepie91> nasdaq would derp and go back up
17:44:53 <ryan> yeah
17:45:08 <ryan> but such derps are rather harmful with currencies
17:46:09 <joepie91> for centralized currencies
17:46:12 <joepie91> for decentralized currencies, not so much
17:46:13 <joepie91> anyway
17:46:15 <joepie91> I have to brb
17:46:17 <joepie91> will be back later :P
17:46:18 <ryan> k
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19:10:19 <monod> may developing a full operative system require to know all the architecture-low-level knowledge as possible?
19:10:24 <monod> (may sound stupid)
19:23:56 <joepie91> monod: I think so
19:24:02 <joepie91> you'll want to talk to ShadowDemon about that
19:24:14 <monod> oh wow
19:24:18 <monod> who is he?
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19:24:35 <joepie91> <monod>may developing a full operative system require to know all the architecture-low-level knowledge as possible?
19:24:36 <joepie91> <monod>(may sound stupid)
19:24:36 <joepie91> <joepie91>monod: I think so
19:24:36 <joepie91> <joepie91>you'll want to talk to ShadowDemon about that
19:24:37 <joepie91> there we go
19:24:38 <joepie91> :P
19:24:39 <joepie91> cc ShadowDemon
19:24:59 <monod> thanks
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19:34:26 <monod> I also recommend this! http://specto.sourceforge.net/
19:34:52 <monod> "Specto is a desktop application that will watch configurable events (such as website updates, emails, file and folder changes, system processes, etc) and then trigger notifications."
19:35:00 <monod> but it's no longer maintained :/
19:35:07 <monod> just discovered it :(
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19:40:24 <joepie91> monod: this is very interesting
19:41:00 <monod> :) it's my pleasure if so
19:41:10 <monod> the damn thing is that it's no more maintained
19:41:20 <monod> but I don't know, I have it installed since this morning...
19:41:30 <monod> no real problems with it still..
19:41:37 <monod> still* no real problems with it
19:42:11 <monod> you can use it for whatever you like, e.g. you can tell it to constantly watch anonnews for news from them!
19:42:18 <monod> (not you personally :D)
19:42:28 <zxcvbnm> but not for windows
19:42:32 <zxcvbnm> hmph
19:42:36 <monod> :D
19:42:59 <monod> there must be something for win too... :/
19:43:36 <monod> the best thing to do with it is to let it watch websites which do not change very often
19:44:16 <monod> so you do not get bombarded with notifications (xD) and you can view the news as they're being done
19:44:53 <joepie91> monod: depending on what the codebase looks like, I may consider reviving that project
19:45:12 <monod> you personally?
19:45:24 <monod> I ask because I don't feel good enough to doing that
19:45:24 <joepie91> yes
19:45:44 <monod> it really sounds like an important thing
19:45:56 <monod> oh yeah, "depending on what the codebase looks like" :D
19:46:32 <monod> zxcvbnm, atm I only found not-free programs for windows xD no luck atm :)
19:47:18 <joepie91> monod: I've been thinking about an unobtrusive notification system for a while
19:47:26 <monod> me too
19:47:30 <joepie91> and it looks like someone already did (part of) it
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19:48:00 <monod> yeah, and here's the article in which he explains why he dropped the maintainment
19:48:03 <monod> http://jeff.ecchi.ca/blog/2013/03/21/a-programs-obsolescence/
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19:49:50 <monod> He states: "I took the dive and taught myself Python programming. Specto holds some sentimental value as it was my first OOP learning platform, but Id probably be horrified if I were to look at its code now, after having considerably improved my skills by contributing to Pitivi. How the hell can Specto have nearly as much code as the current Pitivi development version, anyway!?"
19:50:02 <monod> that is, he may have written "bad looking" code
19:50:07 <monod> *may*
19:50:09 <monod> joepie91^
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19:51:32 <joepie91> monod: mm
19:52:01 <monod> here comes the icing "For watching the Web, Specto is now mostly irrelevant: Liferea is the program that took its place in my life. Arguably, social networks have also filled that role for many people."
19:52:28 <joepie91> I disagree
19:52:35 <joepie91> Liferea does RSS feeds, but that's it
19:52:43 <joepie91> and social networks do not provide an objective data feed
19:52:50 <monod> oh
19:52:54 <joepie91> plus, it watches the internet as a whole, rather than specific sites
19:53:05 * monod looking for rss feeds on google/wikipedia
19:53:06 <joepie91> I also disagree that GNOME3 solves the problem, but I can understand that it does for him
19:53:15 <joepie91> so I can't blame him for making this decision
19:53:21 <joepie91> that said, I do believe there's a place for Specto
19:53:26 <joepie91> in the world, so to say
19:53:42 <monod> and what's more, is in python :)
19:53:46 <monod> which is gold for you
19:53:54 <joepie91> GNOME3s notification system is not environment-independent, and seeing as GNOME3 is very heavy comparatively, it's not an option for everyone
19:54:03 <joepie91> monod: the language is just a tool
19:54:10 <joepie91> Python is why I could work on it, but not why I think it has a place
19:54:27 <monod> of course
19:54:35 <joepie91> anyway, if I were to revive Specto... I would make two primary changes
19:54:44 <joepie91> 1. ability for push notifications via an online service
19:54:48 <joepie91> (decentralized)
19:55:08 <joepie91> 2. notification 'classes': "realtime", "time-sensitive" and "archivable"
19:55:40 <joepie91> urgency can indicate how important something is, but not *when* it should bother you about it
19:55:52 <joepie91> and that is the biggest issue with things like libnotify right now
19:56:33 <joepie91> (actually, GNOME3 has the same issue afaik)
19:56:43 <monod> hmm
19:56:53 <monod> I'm not this much into it sadly :(
19:57:03 <joepie91> monod: it's fairly easy to understand actually
19:57:10 <monod> python, GNOME3, libnotify, push notifications...
19:57:12 <joepie91> a "realtime" notification is something like "person X came online"
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19:57:18 <joepie91> it's only useful 'in the instant'
19:57:24 <monod> yeah, I almost understand everything, just not the technical parts :)
19:57:25 <joepie91> and if ignored, it loses its purpose
19:57:36 <monod> right
19:57:42 <joepie91> a "time-sensitive" notification is something that requires your attention within a certain amount of time
19:58:03 <joepie91> such as for example...
19:58:17 <monod> and archivable is like a.... "data collector"?
19:58:20 <joepie91> "you've received an e-mail that requires a receipt confirmation"
19:58:39 <joepie91> an "archivable" notification is something that is, as the name says, archivable
19:58:48 <joepie91> "you got X new visitors on your website today"
19:59:01 <joepie91> it's not something that requires your action, it just informs you
19:59:01 <joepie91> and there's a purpose in archiving the data
19:59:06 <monod> oh okay
19:59:10 <joepie91> say that you're busy with work, for example
19:59:11 <joepie91> programming
19:59:16 <joepie91> and you don't want to be distracted unless it's important
19:59:28 <joepie91> all realtime notifications except for the critical-urgency ones are hidden
19:59:33 <joepie91> all time-sensitive notifications are shown
19:59:37 <monod> yeah, different purposes for the same watcher
19:59:39 <joepie91> and all archivable notifications are hidden
19:59:49 <joepie91> (and queued up in a list that you can look at when you're done)
20:00:02 <joepie91> that way, it only bothers you with the things that really require your attention *at that moment*
20:00:17 <joepie91> a web hosting invoice, for example... you need to pay it, so it can be "high urgency"
20:00:19 <joepie91> but it doesn't need to happen *now*
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20:00:41 <joepie91> so you can make it not bother you until you're done working
20:01:45 <joepie91> a PM on IRC would also be 'archivable'
20:01:52 <joepie91> you'll eventually want to read it
20:01:59 <joepie91> but it doesn't require your immediate attention when you're busy
20:02:06 <MK_FG> Well, to be fair, desktop notifications have "urgency" attribute
20:02:27 <joepie91> MK_FG: ... I just finished explaining how 'urgency' isn't sufficient
20:02:29 <joepie91> lol
20:02:38 <monod> :D
20:02:48 <joepie91> 'urgency' is used as an indication of the level of impact
20:02:57 <joepie91> "how bad will shit be when I don't read this"
20:03:19 <joepie91> but it doesn't really say anything about time, in practical usage
20:03:36 <MK_FG> Hm, I don't actually see it that way, but dunno if it's set in spec
20:03:49 <joepie91> honestly, the spec isn't very relevant
20:03:52 <joepie91> have a look at how it's actually used
20:03:53 <joepie91> :P
20:04:40 <joepie91> MK_FG: the thing is that a proper disctintion wouldn't be a 'sliding scale'
20:04:45 <joepie91> but a bunch of 'types'
20:04:45 <monod> joepie91, are you using that kind of programming "things that I want to learn" "things that I have to know in order to learn those other ones" and stuff?
20:05:13 <monod> because I'm asking how could you have the time to read the specto pages.. or you simply.. had the time now XD
20:05:14 <joepie91> having a sliding scale makes people mis-classify notifications
20:05:22 <joepie91> because they're not sure if it's "high urgency" or "critical"
20:05:26 <MK_FG> Yeah, sure, would probably be better
20:05:35 crytocc395 (crytocc395@cryto-EED1E183.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #crytocc
20:05:38 <joepie91> and what if you classify something as critical
20:05:47 <joepie91> but then have a notification that's even *more* important
20:05:47 <MK_FG> I guess one can easily classify such notifications in notification-daemon
20:06:02 <joepie91> monod: actually, I just got back from arranging a place to rent
20:06:07 <joepie91> so I wasn't particularly occupied with anything
20:06:07 <joepie91> :)
20:06:14 <joepie91> MK_FG: mm?
20:06:38 <MK_FG> Like, seeing msg from #crytocc would bump it to "pass it on immediately", while others will be archived into digest
20:07:01 <joepie91> I'm talking about classes that developers would use
20:07:03 <joepie91> not end users
20:07:03 <joepie91> :P
20:07:43 <joepie91> so instead of (hypothetically) notify(pynotify.INFO, pynotify.NORMAL, "MK_FG just logged on")
20:07:45 <joepie91> you'd do
20:07:59 <joepie91> notify(pynotify.INFO, pynotify.NORMAL, pynotify.REALTIME, "MK_FG just logged on")
20:08:17 <MK_FG> No, you can't place that decision on developer
20:08:30 <MK_FG> Or it'd have to be configurable in client
20:08:35 <joepie91> because...?
20:08:48 <joepie91> the whole point of them being classes is that they are easily distinguishable as a *kind* of message
20:08:52 <joepie91> without ascribing a certain importance to it
20:08:55 <MK_FG> Because different events hold different importance/prio for different people
20:09:08 <joepie91> MK_FG: have you read the list of classes that I mentioned?
20:09:12 <monod> oh guys, "off topic", I finally got rid of my linux problems :) I learned from terrifying trial-and-error things about grub, I also written a tune for my pc to play it when it boots :D I now also know where the config files are... I now comprehended why in the previous Debian install I lost a lot of program -.- (it was because I uninstalled Rhythmbox! then aptitude wanted to solve dependencies and uninstalled, guess what, 'gnome' O_O ...)
20:09:16 <joepie91> realtime, time-sensitive, archivable
20:09:23 <joepie91> these are objectively distinguishable classes
20:09:29 <monod> got rid of some* of my linux problems
20:09:39 <joepie91> what the notification client does with a realtime notification as opposed to a time-sensitive notification, is their business
20:09:55 <joepie91> these classes just serve to describe what kind of message it is in terms of its relation with time
20:10:02 <MK_FG> So, for me "MK_FG logged on" should be "archivable"
20:10:09 <joepie91> no, it shouldn't be
20:10:12 <joepie91> it's a realtime message
20:10:16 <joepie91> if you want to preserve realtime messages
20:10:23 <joepie91> then by all means configure your notification client to archive them
20:10:27 <joepie91> but the message itself is realtime
20:10:45 <joepie91> also, monod, grat :P
20:10:48 <joepie91> gratz *
20:10:55 <MK_FG> Can't seem to understand what makes it different to "blog post X appeared", for example
20:10:55 <joepie91> (and how did you manage to uninstall gnome...)
20:11:15 <MK_FG> You can check irc logs and see that event later
20:11:16 <joepie91> MK_FG: "user just logged on" is an event that stops being the case immediately
20:11:22 <MK_FG> And so you can for blog post
20:11:48 <MK_FG> Um, no it's not, if it's logged forever ;)
20:11:55 <MK_FG> I don't read all irc realtime, never
20:11:57 <joepie91> what you don't seem to understand is that the classes don't describe (intended) behaviour
20:11:59 <joepie91> they describe the kind of message
20:12:01 <MK_FG> And neither do you, I guess
20:12:05 <joepie91> behaviour is up to the notification client
20:12:07 <monod> thanks guys! dinner-timeeeeee *afk*
20:12:10 * monod is away: Busy
20:12:26 <joepie91> that something is classed as 'realtime' doesn't mean you are forbidden from archiving it
20:12:30 <joepie91> it means that it's a realtime notification
20:12:32 <MK_FG> Right, so it shouldn't be some abstract "real-time", but rather just structured data
20:12:40 <joepie91> like?
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20:13:18 <MK_FG> And user should decide whether event: {user: MK_FG, type: login} is worth being real-time
20:13:33 <joepie91> MK_FG: this requires end-user configuration
20:13:38 <joepie91> this is simple for a reason
20:13:45 <joepie91> it should be possible to get reasonable results with a default configuration
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20:13:55 <joepie91> your proposal is far too complex to achieve its intended purpose - lessening mental load
20:14:00 <joepie91> it only makes it worse
20:14:15 <joepie91> if I have to configure what I want it to do for every single kind of message for every single user, it's only going to cost me MORE time and cause MORE distraction
20:14:19 <joepie91> from what I'm working on
20:14:25 <joepie91> it defeats the point
20:14:39 <MK_FG> Sure, yeah, some reasonable default might be there as well, and look like pynotify.REALTIME
20:14:42 <joepie91> by all means pass on arbitrary structured data with the notification, but that is not what I am talking about
20:14:49 <joepie91> and that is not the problem I am trying to solve
20:14:59 <joepie91> nor is it really a problem I have a need to solve
20:15:17 <MK_FG> But then I don't see why current "critical" urgency isn't exactly that thing, really ;)
20:15:43 <MK_FG> It seem to imply same "realtime" thing to me
20:15:46 <joepie91> because something may be of critical urgency, and I still don't want it to show up when I'm busy on something, and just check my queue every 15 minutes
20:16:04 <joepie91> the urgency levels are not fine-grained enough to do anything useful with
20:16:06 <joepie91> in terms of classification
20:16:19 <joepie91> time-sensitivity and impact are just sort of mashed into one 'scale'
20:16:30 <MK_FG> Hm, yeah, I guess
20:16:32 <joepie91> and that doesn't work
20:16:48 <joepie91> hell, the reason I am even discussing this idea, is because notifications of various kinds are frustrating the hell out of me
20:16:51 <joepie91> because they never seem to come at the right moment
20:16:56 <MK_FG> Btw, you know that you can pass arbitrary structured data with notification as it is, right?
20:18:33 <joepie91> MK_FG: no, I don't, but I assume that only applies to libnotify
20:19:04 <MK_FG> Also, why do you say that spec is irrelevant? It seem to be the right place to describe what such tags mean, so that most notification-daemon's will implement these correctly
20:19:25 <joepie91> MK_FG: because it doesn't matter what something *means* when noone implements it that way
20:19:40 <joepie91> in a hypothetically perfect world, sure, try to work according to a spec
20:19:55 <joepie91> but if 99% of the developers treats 'urgency' as an indication of 'impact' rather than time sensitivity
20:19:59 <joepie91> then an indication of impact is what it is
20:20:06 <joepie91> and clearly that makes more sense to people for that particular scale
20:20:12 <MK_FG> Sure, but the way to make people implement this is either you write all the patches or spec ;)
20:20:32 <joepie91> MK_FG: you're missing the point
20:20:42 <joepie91> I don't care what the spec for libnotify says
20:20:48 <joepie91> if it says that urgency means time-sensitivity
20:20:51 <joepie91> then everyone is ignoring it
20:21:01 <joepie91> and there's clearly a problem in that there's no sensible way to indicate time sensitivity
20:21:05 <joepie91> so something will have to be written for that
20:21:08 <MK_FG> Wrt structured data I meant - https://developer.gnome.org/notification-spec/#hints
20:21:13 <joepie91> if the spec says that urgency means impact
20:21:19 <joepie91> then there is no way to indicate time-sensitivity
20:21:22 <joepie91> and you end up in the same situation
20:21:27 <joepie91> regardless of what the spec says, the same problem still exists
20:21:32 <joepie91> and requires the same solution
20:22:22 <joepie91> that's hardly structured data
20:22:25 <joepie91> :|
20:22:27 <MK_FG> In case of "everyone is ignoring it", right
20:22:45 <MK_FG> It's an arbitrary key-value dict
20:23:02 <MK_FG> With value formats that you specify and interpret in the apps that use the keys
20:24:04 <MK_FG> So, basically, you can have "x-time-sensitivity" header there and ignorant notification-daemons won't break ;)
20:24:16 <joepie91> MK_FG: and how would that work on other platforms?
20:24:24 <MK_FG> And the ones you patch to do the right thing will work
20:24:36 <MK_FG> What do you mean by "other platforms"?
20:24:39 <MK_FG> Windows
20:24:40 <MK_FG> ?
20:24:57 <joepie91> Windows uses the Balloon API or whatever it's called
20:24:59 <joepie91> OS X uses Growl or whatever, afaik\
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20:25:27 <MK_FG> Yeah, it's a spec for notificatiion protocol used on linuxes, won't work at all on all these
20:25:40 <joepie91> there's the next problem then
20:26:12 <MK_FG> (rather unixes, bsd and it's ilk use same desktop after all)
20:27:05 <MK_FG> To be honest, I solve my problem with "urgency" tag, as I have control over both notification issuer and displaying daemon
20:27:25 <joepie91> that's great, but that's not the problem I am experiencing
20:28:56 <MK_FG> You mean the problem you started describing with 'a "time-sensitive" notification is something that requires your attention within a certain amount of time', right?
20:29:59 <MK_FG> (and further along the lines of queueing archivable stuff)
20:33:40 <joepie91> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=164143.0 < ouch
20:33:46 <joepie91> MK_FG: yes.
20:36:34 <MK_FG> I wonder, do you see many "urgent" notifications on OpenSUSE desktop you use?
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20:36:43 <MK_FG> (if there's a way to detect them as such?)
20:38:00 <joepie91> at some point I ran some kind of notification daemon that logged all urgencies (by default they're not distinguished)
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20:40:43 <MK_FG> Don't think I've ever seen it used by something out of the box here, so wonder if there's disconnect on how you think of it on a bit different system
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21:14:49 <joepie91> <huslage>chromium just forked webkit: http://blog.chromium.org/2013/04/blink-rendering-engine-for-chromium.html
21:14:50 <joepie91> oh dear
21:16:34 <MK_FG> And Samsung+Mozilla started writing Servo engine
21:16:49 <MK_FG> Day of web-rendering diversity?
21:18:48 <joepie91> so it seems
21:18:54 <joepie91> might get interesting
21:47:28 <AnonForecast> joepie91, if the create of bitcoin died right now, could BTC survive indefiently without updates?
21:47:39 <AnonForecast> creator*
21:47:56 <joepie91> AnonForecast: there is not one creator of bitcoin
21:48:00 <joepie91> it is an open-source project
21:48:01 <AnonForecast> is it independant like torrents or dependant on updates like tor?
21:48:11 <joepie91> in fact, the original creator disappeared somewhere in.. 2009? 2010?
21:48:17 <AnonForecast> interesting
21:48:31 <AnonForecast> so its relatively immune to being decapitated, so to speak?
21:48:35 <joepie91> yes
21:48:38 <joepie91> very immune actually
21:48:39 <AnonForecast> great news :)
21:48:47 <AnonForecast> me likey
21:49:09 <joepie91> AnonForecast: the trick is that there is no exclusivity of protocol knowledge
21:49:23 <joepie91> there are plenty of people that know how it works, and plenty of people that could learn about how it works if necessary
21:49:27 <joepie91> it's all documented
21:49:37 <AnonForecast> tor seems to be updating all the time, which would make me think its more vulnreable to sabotag
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21:49:40 <AnonForecast> gotcha
21:50:08 <AnonForecast> and if anyone tried to screw around with BTC there are enough ppl with the same goal in mind that it would be too difficult to sabotage
21:50:32 <AnonForecast> at some point, i expect big banks are going to get mad at BTC
21:50:51 <joepie91> actually, that the bitcoin world started out so geek-centric works in its favour
21:50:56 <joepie91> yes
21:51:05 <joepie91> because of above, there are enough people that will take notice
21:51:06 <joepie91> and try to fix shit
21:51:17 <joepie91> it was born as a toy of passionate geeks
21:51:37 <joepie91> and toys of passionate geeks have a tendency of having a lot of support behind them
21:51:37 <joepie91> :P
21:52:07 <MK_FG> It's possible to "screw" blockchain by someone who holds vast majority of mining power, which might be an interesting challenge for some gov institution
21:52:13 <AnonForecast> and there is massive social surpport for depoweering big banks
21:52:21 <AnonForecast> thats exactly what is at the heart of occupy
21:52:32 <MK_FG> Like, NSA with it's scary Utah data center ;)
21:52:34 <AnonForecast> i would expect this to work as strong social insulation
21:52:50 <AnonForecast> ya Uncle Sam is a fucking creepy pervert these days
21:53:04 <joepie91> MK_FG: the problem is that not only is it very hard to pull of computationally
21:53:06 <AnonForecast> omg thats good propagnada idea
21:53:09 <joepie91> it's also very hard to pull off without anyone noticing
21:53:18 <MK_FG> Sure, people will notice
21:53:24 <joepie91> the 'vulnerable period' is over already
21:53:35 <MK_FG> And then I expect clients will block these IPs from mining
21:53:43 <MK_FG> But that'd be cat-and-mouse
21:53:54 <joepie91> no, I don't think that's what will happen
21:53:55 <MK_FG> One new unblocked NSA IP and it's fork again
21:54:10 <joepie91> I think that what will happen, is people putting more legitimate mining power into the network
21:54:23 <MK_FG> Hm, possible, I guess
21:54:33 <MK_FG> Especially if a lot of big players will be invested
21:54:40 <joepie91> and honestly, even with majority control of the network, the best you can do is causing chaos
21:54:43 <MK_FG> As it kinda is now, I guess
21:54:51 <joepie91> even with >50% control it's hard to permanently modify the chain
21:54:56 <joepie91> without conflicts
21:54:59 <joepie91> yes
21:55:00 <AnonForecast> overloading confuses people
21:55:24 <joepie91> idk, I just don't think the NSA is going to bother setting up a computational datacenter for this
21:55:27 <joepie91> various reasons:
21:55:28 <AnonForecast> would BoA beable to theoretically buy all BTCs?
21:55:43 <joepie91> 1. the effect is limited to chaos, which doesn't really do much for a currency that bounces back in minutes after its largest exchange gets owned
21:55:50 <AnonForecast> well they do have LOTS of excessive "cyber war" funding and no real enemies ;p
21:55:51 <joepie91> (bitcoin is extremely stable in that regard)
21:56:02 <joepie91> 2. it would seriously damage the image of the US government
21:56:08 <AnonForecast> no comment ;p
21:56:11 <joepie91> seeing as they take the offensive, rather than trying to legislate against it
21:56:22 <joepie91> and it's not something you can do gradually, like government normally does to make people ignore it
21:56:27 <joepie91> either you disrupt the network, or you don't
21:56:29 <MK_FG> It'd also just cost a lot for simple disruption
21:56:46 <joepie91> 3. the cost is insane, and I'm not sure if even the NSA can cough up enough resources for >50% network control
21:56:49 <AnonForecast> i know there is currently a strong social stigma that BTC are for drug dealers
21:56:49 <joepie91> especially with the new ASICs
21:57:07 <joepie91> ASICs would have been the last card to play for a government
21:57:17 <joepie91> that card is defeated before it's used, by 'normal people' starting to get ASICs
21:57:24 <joepie91> AnonForecast: actually, that stigma is getting less
21:57:26 <joepie91> and fast
21:57:39 <joepie91> I've noticed a major shift in the public perception of Bitcoin amongst "normal people"
21:57:43 <joepie91> in the past few weeks
21:57:56 <AnonForecast> good
21:58:01 <joepie91> also, to answer your question
21:58:01 <joepie91> <AnonForecast>would BoA beable to theoretically buy all BTCs?
21:58:02 <joepie91> no
21:58:06 <AnonForecast> this western union and etsy are the key
21:58:10 <joepie91> even if just because there's going to be that last asshole
21:58:13 <joepie91> that refuses to sell his 1 BTC
21:58:16 <joepie91> lol
21:58:19 <AnonForecast> etsy is a GREAT way to get BTC going asap
21:58:28 <AnonForecast> local artists are perfect
21:58:30 <joepie91> yes, WU is likely to be an important player here
21:58:37 <joepie91> and etsy might kickstart the 'selling stuff for BTC' part
21:58:43 <joepie91> but for general perception, WU is important
21:58:44 <AnonForecast> i think WU could trigger the big bandwagon
21:58:48 <AnonForecast> yep
21:58:51 <joepie91> well, Wordpress already sort of did that
21:58:52 <joepie91> ;)
21:58:56 <AnonForecast> once everyone sees WU on board, itll be very easy
21:58:57 <AnonForecast> in fact
21:59:09 <AnonForecast> we can start making fun of "old business" that is too stupid to handle BTC
21:59:20 <joepie91> despite the questionable reputation of WU, they *are* considered a large financial institution by people...
21:59:27 * AnonForecast scoffs at star bucks "you used to be so edgey, what happened?"
21:59:34 <joepie91> lol
21:59:35 <AnonForecast> quesitonable?
21:59:42 <joepie91> yes
21:59:48 <AnonForecast> ive never heard any thing bad about WU
22:00:05 <joepie91> craigslist actively warns against using it
22:00:23 <joepie91> WU is a very popular choice for scammers and people conducting questionable business
22:00:32 <joepie91> because it's fairly easily to get away with fake personal details
22:00:36 <joepie91> and you get your money handed out in cash
22:00:38 <joepie91> in person
22:00:46 <joepie91> so, it's not reversible
22:00:54 <joepie91> and in many countries you can just give a fake name
22:00:56 <joepie91> and receive money
22:01:33 <joepie91> it's also used by quite a few minors to receive money for work they do online, because all the payment processors like paypal refuse under-18 users
22:01:33 <joepie91> :)
22:02:47 <MK_FG> joepie91, Unrelated, but I wonder about "ability for push notifications via an online service (decentralized)" wrt notifications - you thought of archiving stuff in such online service(s), right?
22:03:10 <MK_FG> Did you have any concrete implementation in mind, which will allow easy display of such notification-archive?
22:03:29 <MK_FG> (presumably, already existing one)
22:04:45 <joepie91> MK_FG: actually, I was thinking of having the ability to have remote services send you notifications
22:04:52 <joepie91> without having to use independent polling mechanisms for each service
22:04:58 <joepie91> or polling at all, really
22:05:11 <joepie91> the online service would not really be anything more than a relay
22:05:17 <joepie91> and a queue in case you're offline
22:05:22 <joepie91> unrelated, todays news:
22:05:34 <joepie91> Chromium forks webkit into Blink
22:05:37 <joepie91> a new rendering engine
22:05:43 <joepie91> Opera announces they are going to use Blink as well
22:05:51 <MK_FG> It just sounds awfully lot like some twitter or app.net for short notifications
22:06:01 <MK_FG> But I think these are missing sane querying
22:06:27 <MK_FG> And are non-free stupid services, of course
22:06:39 <joepie91> well hey, Twitter and app.net are really nothing more than RSS feeds with a web frontend
22:06:40 <joepie91> :P
22:06:52 <joepie91> that's the thing
22:06:54 <MK_FG> Yeah, notification archives ;)
22:06:56 <joepie91> these all aren't terribly new ideas
22:07:01 <joepie91> they're just not implemented right
22:07:04 <joepie91> for particular usecases
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22:13:51 <MK_FG> Hm, opera is weird
22:15:49 <MK_FG> Or maybe now opera should be considered to be a "non-google chromium fork"?
22:26:40 <joepie91> no, they're still using their own engine
22:26:47 <joepie91> er
22:26:48 <joepie91> js engine *
22:26:58 <joepie91> afaik
22:32:04 *** Xeross|AFK is now known as Xeross
22:42:58 <MK_FG> Doesn't seem to be the case? http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/300-million-users-and-move-to-webkit - "we're also announcing that for all new products Opera will use WebKit as its rendering engine and V8 as its JavaScript engine"
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22:52:59 <monod> back again, for some time..
23:00:49 <joepie91> MK_FG: http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2013/hello-blink/
23:04:27 <MK_FG> joepie91, You meant to drag attention to "With Presto remaining in the wild until 2020"? Doesn't he just talking about them maintaining some old (or different-platform) presto-based operas?
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23:21:40 <joepie91> MK_FG: oh wait, the topic was JS engine
23:22:01 <joepie91> I was under the impression that Opera was going to use a different JS engine
23:22:04 <joepie91> but apparently I was wrong
23:22:04 <joepie91> :P
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23:42:30 <MK_FG> I just realized that with opera migrating to as-good-as-chrome webkit engine there's no reason for me to use chromium anymore
23:43:11 <MK_FG> Opera has more configurability and better (and non-restricted) plugins, and is otherwise nice as well
23:43:24 <MK_FG> Well played opera, well played ;)
23:53:46 <joepie91> lol